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All Forum Posts by: Michael Ten

Michael Ten has started 2 posts and replied 8 times.

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like insurance isn't the way to go. 

Joe -- I think I can prove that he was aware of the plumbing issues. I'll consult with a lawyer after all. But you are right, this may simply be an expensive lesson. 

Steve -- I have commissioned a bunch of repairs to the downspout and gutter system, in addition to redoing the windows.

I purchased a property through Roofstock in June. The Roofstock inspection, which was admittedly cursory, turned up nothing. 

In the PSA disclosures, the seller admitted that there were leaks in the house, but that they had made attempts to fix it (I mistook it as "had been fixed").

Since then, the inherited tenant moved out, and a new tenant came and went, complaining of severe plumbing and basement leak issues. 

I scoped the main line and found that a pipe in the basement has completely rotted away. An outside portion of the line is impacted by roots, and it is holding water. The estimated cost to fix is about $8.2k ($4.5k to remove and replace the inside line, and the balance to do the outside portion). My understanding is that insurance won't cover the outside. Does the inside count as "neglected maintenance"? Should I ask my insurance agent if they will cover it? I can't tell if even asking them for advice would trigger a premium increase.

The other issue is that water is pooling around the basement windows and other areas. It requires about $7.7k in concrete and dirt removal and replacement to prevent water from entering the house (as well as fixing the windows and drain pipes). Would I be able to invoke insurance for this? 

There is a water exclusion in my policy, but the bold part is where I have some hope. 

[No coverage for]

Water below the surface of the ground including that which exerts pressure on or flows, seeps or
leaks through sidewalks, driveways, foundations, walls, basement or other floors, or though doors,
windows, or any other opening in such sidewalks, driveways, foundations, walls or floors;

...

Wear and tear; marring; deterioration; inherent vice; latent defect; mechanical breakdown; rust; mold;
wet or dry rot; contamination; smog; smoke from agricultural smudging or industrial operations; settling,
cracking, shrinking, bulging, or expansion of pavements, patios, foundations, walls, floors, roofs or
ceilings; birds, vermin, rodents, insects or domestic animals. If any of these cause water to escape from
plumbing, heating or air-conditioning system or household appliance, the Underwriters cover damage
caused by water. The Underwriters also cover the cost of tearing out and replacing any part of a building
necessary to repair the system or appliance.
The Underwriters do not cover damage to the system or
appliance from which this water escaped.

And finally -- I heard thirdhand that one of the technicians who went out to the property to perform repairs had been to the house before, on similar work. And I also heard (again, thirdhand) that the inherited tenant had complained of these issues, and had moved out as a result. I'm following up to get firsthand confirmation. If this is correct, it seems like the previous owner had knowledge of these issues. 

My questions are: 

1) Should I inquire with my insurance about coverage? What would a standard policy likely cover, among the list above? 

2) Should I contact a lawyer to seek relief against the former owner? It seems likely that they had knowledge of these issues and didn't disclose the extent. 

I wouldn't have gone through with the purchase if I had seen the leak disclosure before the PSA, but alas. I'm into this house for $15k in various turn costs already, so doubling that (for a property that cost $85k) is pretty horrifying. 

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Originally posted by @Bill S.:

@Michael Ten something that was not mentioned which does't directly relate to your question but might help solve the real problem. Get the sewer line scoped. Have a company run a camera down the line and record the condition of the line and send you the recording. It should include a written report/summary as well.

There are a few possibilities for the cause of your problem. 1) the connection between the new line which was installed and the old line which is usually at or near the basement wall may have failed or been done poorly. This captures debris and eventually clogs the line. 2) The tap into the main in the street may not have been replaced and it has failed or was done poorly, again resulting in the back ups. 3) The line from the house to the street is too flat (not enough fall from DS bathroom to the main line in the street. If this is the case you are hosed as there is no cheap fix for this issue. 

Again no matter what the problem, running a camera down the line will tell you the situation. Insist your PM have this done.

Thank you so much for the advice, Bill. I'm in the middle of having the tenant leave -- she was supposed to vacate yesterday, but she has issues with the property manager and refused to let him be present (???), so we're checking today to see if she vacated and what the condition of the property is. 


The next step is absolutely to scope the line. During the hydrojet call, the technician snaked the line and suspected there was an obstruction about 50-75 feet in, so I think a fourth possibility is roots intrusion. I called a plumber to the house on Jan 13, but the tenant pretended not to be home (though the garage was halfway open), and the plumber was unable to get in. So we are waiting until she is out, before calling them back to the property. 

Either way, I'm hoping it is one of the fixable options. It turns out that the basement windows leak as well, so I believe quite a bit of work is coming up. What a headache! But at least things are moving. Thanks for your advice!

Originally posted by @Heshel Mangel:

Was going to ask you. Have you ever contacted them about this? Their whole model is based on giving you valid and accurate reporting (obviously as intelligent investors, this does not absolve one of doing their own DD..trust by verify), if they were inaccurate that should be brought up to them to see if they will help rectify the situation. 

I reached out with questions and feedback on the transaction, but I don't expect them to take responsibility for this. The issues cropped up about 6 months after the transaction. As Ray said, the biggest lesson I learned from this is to have my own inspection performed, including a separate plumbing inspection. 


I'm not soured on investing in real estate -- but I want to get all the big mistakes out of the way. Seems like I am doing that. :-D

Originally posted by @Mary M.:

Is your time really worth so little that you can spend all this time and effort instead of just letting tenant go and returning deposit

This is a battle that just seems not worth fighting 

It didn't take much time to ask the question here. After all the time I've spent dealing with the PM company and directly calling plumbers, it's absolutely worth 5 minutes to ask if a month's rent is recoverable. 

But I see what you mean about the fight not being worth it.

Originally posted by @Heshel Mangel:
Originally posted by @Michael Ten:

Hi! I'm new to the forum (as a poster), but I have enjoyed learning from this community as a lurker. 

I purchased a property through Roofstock in KCMO. It has 1.5 baths on the main floor and a half-bath in the basement. It passed their inspection with no issues, but the inherited tenant complained of plumbing issues in the downstairs half-bath. When she moved out, I had an auger cleaning done as part of the rehab. 

A new tenant moved in on December 1st. On Christmas, she complained of the downstairs toilet backing up, so the property manager sent someone out there. On the 1st, she complained about the same issue again, and we sent out another appliance technician. They flushed the line with a hydrojet and sent a snake in there, and they think there is an obstruction or broken pipe in the system. I have been contacting plumbers to go in, but it requires coordination since the tenant insists on being present, leading to delays. She also just informed me of a roof leak in the garage.

The tenant has withheld rent for January, and she has asked to break the lease early and get her security deposit back. I don't think the relationship can be salvaged, and my property manager is sick of her, too, so I'm happy to see her leave. I understand her frustration, but I view her issues as inconveniences, not an inhabitability issue. I am not inclined to return the deposit in full -- at the very least, taking a pro-rated rent for the 80% of the house that is liveable. 

My question is: do the bathroom or garage situations break the implied warranty, given that the main floor is fully useable, and we have been responding promptly to all requests? Would you return the deposit in full (minus any cleaning costs) and take the hit for January rent? 

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences!

Did the Roofstock inspection report show any of these issues? Were you aware of them before? 

The Roofstock inspection turned up nothing. The prior tenant was under Section 8, which meant there were annual inspections. Those didn't uncover anything, either. The roof is new (2014). The sewer line from the house to the street was also replaced in 2014.

As I mentioned, the prior tenant complained of flushing issues downstairs, so I had an auger cleaning done prior to renting it out again. These issues began on Dec 25th as far as I am aware, and I have sent two service technicians out there with additional work incoming to replace the line. 

I'm not sure what more I could have done. I definitely regret the purchase and will be avoiding Roofstock properties in the future... *lol*



Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

I can't believe you have a property manager and they haven't already answered this for you. I'm in the small town of Cody, Wyoming and it took me one minute to find your state law and what it says about a tenant withholding rent. You may want to find a new property manager.

I provided a link to the information below and you'll want to specifically pay attention to Page 5. The tenant cannot withhold rent without first giving you written notice and then giving you 14 days to resolve the issue. Even then, the tenant is limited in how much they can withhold.

CLICK HERE

I would give the tenant written notice that says you were unaware of the problem and are working diligently to rectify it. I would point out that the tenant is not in compliance with the law and has no justification for withholding rent. However, to demonstrate good faith, you are willing to let them out of their lease if:

1. They pay January rent in full;

2. They move out no later than January 1st and return the property to you;

3. They return the home in the same or better condition than it was received;

If they meet this criteria, you will inspect on February 1st and issue a full refund of their deposit and release them from any further obligation. If they reject your offer, tell them they will be held to the lease agreement and the law.

I'm definitely wondering if the property manager is part of the problem. I found the same law you did, but I was more concerned about the habitability clause, which (depending on interpretation of the diligence of my response) may entitle me to no Jan rent. 


I have apologized to them for the issues, but pointed out that I had no knowledge of them and have been responding diligently since I was informed. I will take your advice on a good-faith release, but it's pretty unlikely that they will pay Jan rent, so I likely take it out of the deposit. I wanted to make sure I was properly entitled to it. 

Private message incoming for PM recommendations. Thanks.

Hi! I'm new to the forum (as a poster), but I have enjoyed learning from this community as a lurker. 

I purchased a property through Roofstock in KCMO. It has 1.5 baths on the main floor and a half-bath in the basement. It passed their inspection with no issues, but the inherited tenant complained of plumbing issues in the downstairs half-bath. When she moved out, I had an auger cleaning done as part of the rehab. 

A new tenant moved in on December 1st. On Christmas, she complained of the downstairs toilet backing up, so the property manager sent someone out there. On the 1st, she complained about the same issue again, and we sent out another appliance technician. They flushed the line with a hydrojet and sent a snake in there, and they think there is an obstruction or broken pipe in the system. I have been contacting plumbers to go in, but it requires coordination since the tenant insists on being present, leading to delays. She also just informed me of a roof leak in the garage.

The tenant has withheld rent for January, and she has asked to break the lease early and get her security deposit back. I don't think the relationship can be salvaged, and my property manager is sick of her, too, so I'm happy to see her leave. I understand her frustration, but I view her issues as inconveniences, not an inhabitability issue. I am not inclined to return the deposit in full -- at the very least, taking a pro-rated rent for the 80% of the house that is liveable. 

My question is: do the bathroom or garage situations break the implied warranty, given that the main floor is fully useable, and we have been responding promptly to all requests? Would you return the deposit in full (minus any cleaning costs) and take the hit for January rent? 

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences!