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All Forum Posts by: Marco Werner

Marco Werner has started 3 posts and replied 8 times.

Quote from @Alecia Loveless:

@Marco Werner Be sure to analyze the total cost for building the ADU vs. the amount of rent you can get.

I was looking at doing a garage conversion and found the estimated cost of about $100,000 would be only returning a rental rate of $900/month.

Instead I have decided to add some extra electrical outlets and put in lights and rent it as a workshop. The cost for this will be about $8000 vs the ability to get $500/month in rent which is a much better option.

I also agree with the other post on comparing actual MLS sales that have ADUs close to your area vs the cost of the addition.


 Thank you for the input - love your idea. I am looking at around $400k but also looking to add around 1000 sqft and preserving the 2 car garage. 

Quote from @Dan H.:

ADU in sf areas of San Diego are seldom getting values from appraisers over $100k. This is n spite of it costing much more than that to add an ADU.

Look for comps of properties sold with an ADU then look for comps comparable to the house without the ADU. That will show you how the market values the ADU. If you cannot find at least 3 comp properties with an ADU, then be prepared for a horrendous valuation (<=$100k).

It s my view ADU additions in So Cal are one of the worse RE investments especially in SF areas. Here is a list of reasons:

1) The value added by the ADU addition is often significantly less than the cost of adding the ADU. Search the BP for ADU appraisals to encounter numerous examples. This creates a negative initial position. This negative position can consume years of cash flow to recover. Make sure you know the value the ADU will add to the property before building the ADU.
2) the financing on an ADU is typically far worse than for initial investment property acquisition or is often not leveraged (HELOC, cash out refi, etc). Leverage magnifies return.
3) The effort involved in adding an ADU is comparable or larger than a rehab associated with a BRRRR. However if I do a BRRRR I can achieve infinite return by extracting all of my investment. Due to item 1, adding an ADU can require years to start achieving any return (once the accumulated cash flow recovers the initial negative position).
4) Adding an ADU is a slow process. It can take a year or more to complete an ADU. During this time you are not generating any return from the money invested in the ADU. This amounts to lost opportunity because if you had purchased RE, at the closing it can start producing return.
5) ADUs detract from the existing structure whether this is privacy, a garage, or just yard space.
6) this is related to number 1, but there are many more buyers looking to purchase homes for their family than there are RE investors looking to purchase small unit count properties. This may affect value or time required to sell.
7) Adding an ADU does not make the property a duplex. For example in many jurisdictions I can STR units in a duplex but cannot STR an ADU (some jurisdictions will let you STR if you owner occupy). Duplex have different zoning that may permit additional units. Duplex can always add additional units via the ADU laws.
8) Related to number 1, purchasing a property with an existing ADU is cheaper than buying a property and adding an ADU. Why add an ADU if it can be purchased cheaper?
9) adding multiple ADUs or adding an ADU to a quad looses F/F conventional financing.  This reduces exit options and affects the value.  
10) Small number of small units is the most expensive residential development there is.  This implies residential units can be built at lower costs and provide better return. 

Good luck 


 Thanks so much for the thoughtful post! 

Reactions to your points - would love your feedback given you are clearly very experienced in this. 

1. There are properties in the direct area where the ADU sqft was simply added to the total sqft and was sold with a similar price per sqft to other properties in the area (ranging in the $700-800 ppsf). Actually, I haven't found a single one where the ADU lead to a meaningful discount.

2. The bank I am working with would provide a construction loan with 3/8 points higher than the original mortgage to buy the property. So very attractive financing? I would then refi after construction is complete to a "regular" loan.

3 + 4. I think these are the biggest risks I am facing since there are powerlines in the proximity. 

5. / 6. / 7. The property is already a duplex (i.e., it has 2 units). The ADU would be the 3rd unit and the largest and most attractive one out of the 3 (also preserving the 2 garage spots). To be clear, this is not a single-family home which would lose its benefit of being a single-family home)

8. If I could find a good one I would ;) but havent found anything that is cheaper since the sqft of building is much lower than what it sells for (at least what I have seen in the areas I am looking). 

9. It's a duplex so dont think this applies here. 

10. Probably right, aiming for 1000 sqft livable space so not super tiny but still your point probably holds. 


Steady state, the property should generate about $12-13K in rental income monthly (I will likely live in the ADU to begin with, which would reduce the income of course). At a ticket price of $2M (purchase + ADU build). Doesn't look terrible for one of the more attractive neighborhoods in LA?

Would love your thoughts!

I have a similar question. Did you come up with next steps?

Post: Construction near power lines

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 8
  • Votes 0

Hi all, 

I am looking to buy a property where I want to construct a 3-story ADU in the back of the property (replacing a garage).

The challenge I am running into is that there is a power line right behind the garage. How do I best figure out what is feasible in terms of clearance and its impact on the ADU construction? I have checked the maps of the department of power and water and the location of the power line is highly inaccurate. The maps show the power lines on top of the garage but I visited the site and they are behind the garage (although very close).

I won't go through with the deal if I cannot add at least 1000 sqft through the ADU construction.

Would love your thoughts on how I can best get clarity on this before making an offer or at least before closing. 

Hi all, 

I am looking at a duplex (1500 sqft), which has a large detached garage (~700 sqft floor area). 

I am thinking of adding 2 stories on top of the garage (essentially rebuilding the garage) and adding north of 1000 sqft livable space. The property is in LA and I am trying to think through how much value I am adding to the property. 

Is it fair to assume that the added sqft from the ADU conversion adds value to the property? Should I apply the simple math of average price per sqft in the area times the added sqft? Minus potentially a small discount since it's an ADU? The bank I have been talking to for the loan / construction loan seems to be willing to apply that logic.

Would love your thoughts!

Post: Napkin math - house hacking investment

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 8
  • Votes 0

I came up with this list of value and cost drivers. 

Any thoughts?

Value drivers:

  1. - Rental Income: Income from renting out units.
  2. - Saved Rent: Savings on rent you would otherwise pay for own living space.
  3. - Tax Benefits from Rental Activity:
    • -- Depreciation: Deduction of a portion of the property's cost over time.
    • -- Mortgage Interest: Deduction of interest expense on the rented portion.
  4. - Personal Income Tax Reduction:
    • -- Interest Deduction: Deduction of mortgage interest on personal tax return, subject to limits.
  5. - Growth in Rents: Increases in rental income over time.
  6. - Equity Build-Up: Equity gained from mortgage principal repayment.
  7. - Growth in Equity: Increase in property value over time.

Cost drivers:

  1. - Mortgage Principal Repayment: Part of the mortgage payment that goes towards paying off the loan.
  2. - Interest Payments: Interest portion of the mortgage.
  3. - Maintenance: Regular property upkeep costs.
  4. - Vacancy: Loss of income during periods when units are unoccupied.
  5. - Utilities / Other Expenses: Utility costs, possibly including shared utilities.
  6. - CapEx Reserves: Savings for future capital expenditures (e.g., roof replacement).
  7. - Insurance: Property insurance costs.
  8. - Property Taxes: Annual taxes on property value.
  9. - Closing Costs: Expenses incurred during the property buying process.

Post: Napkin math - house hacking investment

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 8
  • Votes 0
Quote from @Dan M.:

Just my two cents the after tax considerations are cherrys ontop. Those tax savings wont pay your actual bills if you factor them in and your need to hire someone to install an expensive new heating system. The basic equation is this: Rental income TIMES .9 ( assume 10 percent vacancy /nonpayment - it could be better or worse )MINUS  general mainanance costs MINUS capital expense budget ( actually look at a property and plan whats needed on the big ticket items roughly x years out - and how much those things cost! ) MINUS mortgage payment ( include taxes if this is not automatically escrowed by the bank ) MINUS insurance and miscellaneous expense and voila . Now that you know the cash flow, and whats needed / how much rent you would have to pay or make consider that information to see if you move forward with the property. THEN you can look into all the other things and determine the investment return. I think even if you make a very low return on your money, but you no longer have to pay rent or very little rent, then it is a solid win for you. Best of luck finding that property! 


Thank you - that is very helpful! I am looking at the Westside in LA. My out-of-pocket costs will be quite a bit higher vs renting (not really a househack). So I want to look at all benefits and reducing taxable income can be quite meaningful here. 

Post: Napkin math - house hacking investment

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 8
  • Votes 0

Hi friends, 

was wondering if anybody here built a simple Excel to do back of the envelope on a house hacking investment? 

including all the basic elements that drive value, e.g., 

- reduction in tax liability on rental income (from depreciation, interest rate payments, other related expenses)

- reduction in personal income tax liability from interest rate payments (i.e., up to $750k mortgage)

- savings on paying rent (i.e., the rent you are currently paying)

If not, drop in your thoughts on which value drivers need to be included and I can pull a quick one together. 


Thank you!