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All Forum Posts by: Kwan Suh

Kwan Suh has started 4 posts and replied 18 times.

Quote from @David M.:

@Kwan Suh

Yeah, might be more cost effective to put heat tape on the pipes, hot and cold, and have a small space heater to "blunt the chill" when it gets really cold.  MIght cost some labour to wrap the tapes, or just your time.  But, much more efficient.

@David M.

 I think I may go with this option! along with the pipe heat wraps! Thank you for your input David!

https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heat...

Quote from @Bryson Lawrence:

What is the makeup of the basement?  Is it a Michigan basement or is it a poured/block foundation?  Is all the plumbing exposed in the floor joists?  Have you considered just insulating around the pipes?  As long as there is decently steady flow through the pipes and its in a semi-insulated basement I really don't think you'd have any problems.  You can always get foam insulating sleeves to wrap your pipes as well and that may be a more cost effective solution.

It is a Block foundation basement. Plumbing is definitely exposed at the ceiling. I think I may just get some heat tapes for now and like what David mentioned, a few gas powered space heaters for now and check every now and then during coldest times in Winter to check on the temperatures. Thank you guys!

Quote from @Richard F.:

Aloha,

I would think they would be able to simply disconnect/remove the duct runs AT the furnace plenum, and, depending on how large the basement is, add a single or multiple duct runs just for the basement. They may be very short, or even just directly venting from the plenum, depending on the space. They would still need to separate and block off duct runs between units upstairs, as that would be a potential fire chimney, but removing the furnace should have nothing to do with that. Even an old gravity feed "octopus", you just run a couple short ducts toward the far points of the basement to circulate the warm air.

I absolutely would not be using plug in heat panels. You run a great risk of overloading your electrical service if the baseboard heat and panels are not properly separated by multiple circuits. You do NOT want your basement pipes to freeze, so you should also have, in addition to  basement heat, some electric pipe heat cables for the REALLY cold weather that I've heard about up your way...

Thats a very good point on overloading on electrical. but if the wall electrical heating uses .4 KW/HR I am thinking it may be ok? I'm not sure.. nevertheless the HVAC vendors were saying they won't rework the ducts to connect only to the basement since the current furnace has too much BTUs just to heat only the basement. I think they were just trying to upsell the job to add additional scope to remove and get new smaller furnace + installation.. but I'm not an expert so I dunno.. :(
Quote from @David M.:

@Kwan Suh

Interesting...  electric resistance heating is usually the most expensive way to space heat.  What sort of fuel source do you have for your furnace?  I would look at overall lifecycle cost.

How is your insulation in the basement?  

Any chance you natural gas?  There are those space heaters that blow the hot air around.  You just need to vent the exhaust air outside, and maybe bring in some make up air or bring in combustion air actually.  Those are pretty cheap and should be minimal labour for your hvac guy to do.

@David M.

Current Furnace (will be removed) uses Natural gas, but I heard that these wall panel heaters use .4 KW/HR which is like 1/3 of electricity compared to conventional space heaters (atleast that’s how they advertise on their website.).

Also Insulation is pretty decent in the basement, but it is still Michigan where it gets super cold in winter times. So I would probably run it all winter 24/7 I think if I got these.

Hi everyone Happy Independence day (almost)!

I wanted to get your thoughts around heating situation that I am facing for my Basement at my 4Plex multi-unit property.

I recently installed electric base board heaters on each of the 4 apartment units at my property due to city enforcing rentals to provide own heating source per individual apartment unit. (I previously had 1 furnace from my basement heating entire 4 units.

After I installed my electric baseboards, the city inspector now is asking me to separate the HVAC ducts across each apartment where there is no shared air flow.

So I called some local HVAC vendors and asked for them to quote me on separating each ducts and every one of the HVAC vendors mentioned that they must remove the old furnace in order to separate the ducts.

Given that now the furnace will be removed and there will be no heat source in the basement, I’m now left to finding a heat source solution for my basement to prevent pipes freezing in winter.

And I was thinking a cost effective way to heat the basement during the winter times would be to buy a bunch of these Econohome 250 Watt Wall Heater Panels that cost around $100 each and plug into an outlet in my basement.

Since I have about 1000 SQ ft space in the basement I was thinking maybe 4 or 6 of these can keep my basement heated to prevent any freezing during the winter times.

The other option was to spend about 1000 on a new small furnace and pay for labor to have HVAC company install it to heat my basement but that would be too expensive.

I’d like to get your thoughts please. Thank you so much!

Quote from @Leo R.:

@Kwan Suh there's some excellent feedback in this thread that you can use to move on and succeed--in fact, I'd suggest reading this thread a few times, because there are some valuable lessons here...

Here's some more feedback and suggestions for moving forward:

1. Good job keeping it real. Good on you for being honest with yourself about screwing up, and being willing to share it with others (we all screw up, but few of us are real with ourselves or others about it). It takes guts and maturity to recognize your mistakes, admit them to others, and ask others for help. And importantly, being real with yourself and others is the best way to learn from your mistakes, and become a better, smarter, stronger real estate investor (plus, others get to learn from your experience).

2. Avoid C's and D's. As others have mentioned, OOS investing is difficult enough, but it's EXPONENTIALLY more difficult in a C or D area. One of the main reasons is that C and D areas attract problems and problematic people (as you discovered), and very few property managers will put in the significant amount of work it takes to correctly manage a D property, because it's simply not worth the small amount of money they get from the property. Managing a D property is like taking on the worst job in the world, and getting paid almost nothing for it--so, understandably, PMs usually do not put in the effort required for these types of propertiesBecause of this, I'd suggest considering ditching this property, and looking for A and B properties instead (the lower cashflow of an A or B is absolutely worth the significantly easier management).

3. Keep it local. OOS investing is challenging (even with A and B properties). It is exponentially easier to learn the basics of REI if it's a property in your area. Because of this, I'd suggest trying to start with properties in your own area.

4. get some property management experience.  Being a successful real estate investor usually requires understanding how to manage properties. Even if you have a PM, you still need to understand how to manage your properties--because you can't effectively manage your PM if you don't understand how to manage properties.  Think of it this way: a person can't manage a law firm unless they have legal experience.  A person can't coach a team to an NBA championship unless they have basketball experience. A person can't run a mechanic's shop without any mechanical experience ...and similarly, it's very difficult to manage a PM (or team of PMs) if you have no property management experience.  Because of this, if you want to be a successful real estate investor, I suggest starting off with a strategy that gives you property management experience (ideally, managing your own property).

5. Stick with a strategy that matches your experience level. You're a beginner, but you tried to start off with an advanced strategy. Instead, you should start off with a beginner-appropriate strategy.  OOS investing is known to be challenging, and OOS investing in C and D properties is known to be so challenging that even highly experienced real estate investors rarely attempt it (and the few who do often fail!). ...OOS C and D property investing is one of THE most challenging strategies, yet you tried it as a beginner!  That's like trying to ski a double black diamond run the first time you put on skis, or trying to surf a fifty-foot wave the first time you get on a surf board--it's gonna end in disaster! So, don't beat yourself up too much--even experienced investors often fail at what you tried to do...but also, make sure you learn this valuable lesson: stick with the REI strategies that are appropriate for your level of experience--if you're a beginner, use a beginner-appropriate strategy.  In particular, house hacking a single fam or small multifam is one of the best ways for people to get started in REI (and there are plenty of free resources available on this topic).  Get some house hacks under your belt (which will teach you how to manage properties--which, as I said, is critical), and then if you want, move up to some of the more advanced strategies.

6. Keep the loss in perspective, and wear the scar with pride. As others have mentioned, it is not possible to succeed in REI without some big failures, and those of us who have been in REI for a while have suffered losses way more than $15k! In fact, you're not really much of a real estate investor until you've survived a few $10k, $20k, and even $50k+ punches to the gut! As James Brown sang: ya gotta pay the cost to be the boss. So, welcome to the club of real estate investors. Although you took an L on this one, at least you know you did something that everyone *talks* about doing, but which very few people have the cojónes to actually do--buying a rental property. Plus, you have some lessons here that are probably significantly more valuable than the cash you lost! 

Good luck out there!


 Everyone on this forum has been a blessing including you. thank you so much for taking your times to respond to my post. I truly appreciate it.

Quote from @Danny Polanski:

I would file a free online complaint with my state’s attorney general for consumer fraud.

They will follow up and may even help you get some money back. 


 Thank you for this advice! I'll definitely follow through on this!

Quote from @Richard Ball:

Step 1. Become a member of Port Huron Area Landlord Association - PHALA.net - It is $50 a year but they have around 400 members and they have monthly meetings where they bring in local judges, tax experts, accountants, local police, lawyers, fair housing experts and the list goes on all in an effort to keep you up to date and knowledgeable as a landlord.

Step 2. Use there resources to understand the area and get trusted contractors.

Step 3. Profit.

Full disclosure I am a board member of PHALA


 Wow.. such valuable input here. I'm definitely taking your advice and joining. 

Thank you so much, I just got screwed by a handyman that I used for property management.. :(  

Quote from @Wendy Man:
I am sorry that this happened to you, Kwan.  That absolutely sucks.  And it shows a really bad side of some human natures.  Perhaps not being outright scammed, but being taken advantage of, seems to happen to every remote investor.  So, don't lose your confidence!

Meanwhile, it sounds like you may have purchased in an area that may be C or D (drugs, etc.)?  If so, it may be worth reviewing if you want to continue holding property in that area.  C and D are really hard to manage remotely, I am told.

In the unlikely case he is licensed, you may be able to see if you can recover something from his bond.  I hope you have a written contract of some sort.  Google says you can search for MI licensees here: https://aca-prod.accela.com/LA... for him and for future use.

Google says you can also search for MI cases here: https://www.courts.michigan.go....  

As you move forward, maybe also check references, licenses and court records, and reviews on other sites.  You can also use buildzoom to see if a contractor has a permit record that buildzoom has record of (they only have some).  And if so, search for that permit in the relevant city record (many are online) to see how the permit and inspections went.  sometimes the permits will also have a dollar value (which may or may not be the actual value of the work done) that may be useful.

Good luck out there.

 Yes its definitely a C/D area.. high risk high margin.. agree on being very hard to manage lol. And thank you so much for sharing such useful links!! :) 

Quote from @Bailey A.:

@Kwan Suh

Don’t give up! I’m going through my first series of learning lessons now with investing in my second home. $13k is a hard pill to swallow but the sooner you can recognize what you did wrong and move on the quicker you can make some money. From your post, it sounds like your first investment. Mistakes are bound to happen. As my favorite comedian Tom Segura says “Some people suck”. Keep your head up.


 Thank you so much! honestly very encouraging!