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All Forum Posts by: Kevin S.

Kevin S. has started 22 posts and replied 381 times.

Quote from @Glen Wiley:

Real estate specific tax law is very complicated and dynamic. We moved from a non-RE specialist to a RE specialist accountant and reduced our taxes by tens of thousands of dollars. Find an expert. We really like ProVision - big firm, lots of resources, they appear to do a good job staying on top of changes.


 Thank you Glen for your input as well as recommendation of ProVision.  Will definitely check them out.

Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233

Jim, I think you may have hit the nail on the head.  Thanks for your input.  One thing though, if someone cash out a large chunk, say $1,000,000 to be put in RE the tax will be higher than someone who is drawing the required RMD of say $45,000/yr for 26 yrs.  Also, since you are doing syndication right it means you have the right accountant doing it.  Can you share that name of the firm?  Thanks.

Quote from @Julio Gonzalez:

A question that I am frequently asked is whether or not passive investors are able to benefit from a cost segregation study. The strategy is more often talked about relative to active investors, however with the right approach, passive investors are able to capitalize on a cost segregation study as well.

Let’s start off with discussing what a cost segregation study is. A Cost Segregation study is an IRS approved federal income tax tool that increases near term cash flow by utilizing shorter recovery periods for depreciation to accelerate return on investment. For newly constructed, purchased or renovated properties and also retroactive generally over the last 10 years, building components are properly classified into individual units of property and accurate recovery periods for computing depreciation deductions. The study identifies with forensic engineering detail the immediate Bonus Depreciation 5, 7 and 15-year personal property class lives qualifying portions of a building that are normally buried in 27.5 year residential or 39 year commercial categories. The use of the accelerated depreciation strategy helps real estate investors to reduce the tax liability immediately which therefore increases their bottom line due to the offsetting of income. An additional benefit of a detailed engineering-based Cost Segregation Study is that it can increase potential insurance premium savings as well as provide support for the property tax appeals process. Additionally, it can help maximize renovations and improvements.

With the right tax plan and expertise, passive investors can benefit from significant tax savings through accelerated depreciation schedules without the daily involvement required of active investors. Two examples of investment vehicles that passive investors can utilize:

  • Real Estate Syndication: If you are invested in a real estate syndication, be sure to understand whether or not the benefits of the cost segregation can be passed on to the investors. This can usually be found within the syndication agreement.
  • Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs): If you’re invested in a REIT, the dividend payouts could potentially be increased by performing a cost segregation study on the underlying assets thus accelerating depreciation. A key point to make is that not all REITs are qualified to benefit from a cost segregation study as it depends on the structure and the properties that the REIT holds. If you are looking to benefit from a cost segregation study through a REIT, be sure to ask this question on the front-end.
  • The types of properties that really benefit from a cost segregation study are commercial properties, vacation rentals and multi-family residences.

Let’s walk through an example. Let’s say you invest $2,500,000 into a passive syndication that uses investor capital to purchase a multi-family property. The land is valued at $500,000, so your depreciable basis is $2,000,000. Multi-family property depreciates at 27.5 years. However, a cost segregation study was performed and $400,000 of assets qualify to be depreciated over 5 years rather than 27.5. If the study had not been performed, you’d deduct $72,727 each year based on the $2.0M value ($2M / 27.5 years). However, with the cost segregation study, you could deduct an additional $80,000 annually for the first 5 years due to the assets being reclassified ($400,000 / 5 years). Let’s assume you are in the 24% tax bracket. The accelerated depreciation schedule could save you $19,200 per year in taxes for the first five years for a total of over $96,000 in savings. The ability to front-load deductions provides major benefits for passive investors who want to maximize returns. Cost segregation unlocks substantial tax advantages that would otherwise be left on the table.

Key limitations to keep in mind:

Income Thresholds to Watch

The IRS rules for passive losses can be complicated. For instance, losses from one passive investment can offset gains from another, but only up to a certain point. Depending on your AGI levels, your usage may be limited.

Passive Activity Loss Rules

The accelerated depreciation is considered a “passive activity loss.” Wages, business income, etc. are not able to be offset by these deductions - only streams of passive income. Here’s a great article explaining the passive activity loss limitations: Passive loss limitations on rental real estate - Journal of Accountancy

Long-Term Impacts

Cost segregation front-loads deductions into the early years of property ownership. This leaves fewer depreciation benefits down the road. Factor the long view into your overall investment strategy. Many investors who utilize this strategy plan to continue to invest in real estate to be able to continue to capitalize on this tax strategy.

Long story short, both active and passive investors are able to benefit from cost segregation studies. Are you a passive investor that has benefited from a cost segregation study? We’d love to hear your story!


Is your background in accounting or law? i.e CPA vs Tax attorney. Who should I go for starting an LLC? Accountant or RE/Tax law firm and why? Thanks.

Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233
Quote from @Peter W.:

We have seen abnormally high appreciation and rent growth coupled with abnormally low interest rates over the past 4-5 years. My area has appreciated 10% yoy over the past 4 years so if I had parked my money in real estate instead of stocks over those 4 years I likely would have tripled my initial investment. It definitely would have been a great financial decision to cash out my 401k for real estate in 2019.  The question is what will the returns look like moving forward? I  expect moderate interest rates coupled with low to moderate appreciation and low rent growth over the short term. The house I bought in December is pencilling in at 13-17% total return which is great but not worth getting out of my 401k for.


401ks and IRAs have two great features which you can't get anywhere else. Tax free growth and bankruptcy/lawsuit protection. The tax free growth is well known, but the bankruptcy protection is less well known. The second part of this calculation is schools are going to expect me to pay the lessor of 400k or 50% of my net worth for colleges when my kids head to school—more if they go private (4 kids 25k per year). My 401k and IRA don't count towards my net worth, my real estate does.

This all comes back to the original question: are the returns in real estate enough to account for the difference in financial aid for college, bankruptcy protection, the increase in taxes, the time spent buying, maintaining and managing the place and the 10% early withdrawal penalty? Over the next 2-3 years my answer is no. One of my neighbors retired around 35 from rental investments. And when I was getting advice from him and suggested that maybe putting all the money in Microsoft and google was a better idea, he looked at me like it was the dumbest idea ever. He would likely give you different advice than I did (and he is more successful than I am) Best I can do is share my line of thinking and hope that helps you make a decision you are confident in.

I have a somewhat weird financial situation where I am making LA/Denver wages living in a lcol area—thanks remote work which has now gone away. So if I have to change jobs for some reason I am looking at a 30k pay cut or relocate to Denver or LA. That is at some unknown point in the future, I expect to go back to making 90k/yr. So I am forced to invest it. I turned to real estate as a diversification strategy, to find out its returns and headaches, and for the 200/door cash flow. To me that represents ballet classes or some other extracurricular activities for the kids which I wouldn’t be able to afford otherwise. The cash flow is especially nice when attached fixed rate long term debt on an asset which should appreciate well. I also think mortgage rates will eventually end up below 5% (although it might take 5+ years) and buying now will position me to be able to capitalize on that well.


 Thanks a lot Peter.  Your response covers a lot.  As your second response aptly states that it's hard to find a true 7% cap and most require 20% down to breakeven.  So I plan to do exactly that,  buy first one with 20% and see how it goes for few years.  Then buy more or sell off.  One thing comes to mind is : At or close to retirement, the RMD vs RE would resemble a figure X.  RE investment is the lower start of 'x' from left side and rises in time moving towards right. RMD start at higher point from left side and continues lower as line moves in time. This of course considering a person who has no more early withdrawal penalty, kid's college is behind him and other factors that applies during younger age no longer applies.  If this is true then I would coin the term The 'X' factor of RE vs RMD!  A CFP may beg to differ. I would like learn why.

Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233

Thanks for your input Peter.  If stocks has done better for you, I assume you are in RE investing only with your non-retirement money and not 401k.  I watched a BP youtube, this lady who earned about $300,000 or so prior to RE investing being a financial analyst.  She cashed out her 401k ($1,000,000) paid the tax and penalty and is now making about $400,000 annually thru her properties.  This is her self managing for now. I realize she may be an outlier and therefore would like to hear from more people who have cashed out 401k and done better with RE rather than just living on RMD.   

Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233

The hypothesis is the person is 65 y.o and 401K being the only income and is at the lowest.  He resides in Florida.  RE professional in not in the picture at this time.

Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233
Quote from @Basit Siddiqi:

I think it makes sense in a couple of situations

1) Are you in a year where your overall income is less resulting in less taxes as a result of the distribution
2) Are you currently in a state without a state income tax but planning to retire in a state with an income tax?
You may pay the penalty but avoid the state income tax
3) Are you able to claim Real Estate Professional Status / STR classified as active to help mitigate the tax burden?
4) Are you able to get in a better return with the funds compared to what its currently investing in?
If you can get a 15% return with the cash compared to 10% in the 401k, you may make your money back in a few amount of years.

Best of luck.


Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233

Would this person have 10% penalty since he is 65 y.o?  Is the age for no penalty 59.5?

Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233
Quote from @Sean O'Keefe:

@Layne T. This would likely result in a 10% early withdrawal penalty and ordinary income taxes (screen grab of brackets below) on amount withdrawn.

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*This post does not create a CPA-client relationship. The information contained in this post is not to be relied upon. Readers are advised to seek professional advice.


Post: Cashing out 401k for Rentals?

Kevin S.Posted
  • Posts 384
  • Votes 233

Layne, you brought out an interesting topic which I was wondering myself.  Here's a scenario:  

A 65 y.o has $1,000,000 in his 401K and about to retire.  Assume 401K is the only retirement income he will have (We'll leave SS out for the discussion).  He needs about $45,000 annually to live on.  RMD will result in $80,000 minus tax for next 26 years until he exhaust the account. Because he needs $45,000 to live on he invest remaining (approximately after tax) $15,000 for 26 yrs netting him about $900,000. Compare that with cashing out entire 401K at retirement and end up with about $650,000 to buy a rental with about 7% cash flow ($45,000/yr).  If I am correct he may not have to pay tax after using depreciations and other tax write offs(this is open for input and corrections).  In essence, he has $45,000 annually in perpetuity that increase yearly in perpetuity all while property appreciates indefinitely.  This doesn't even factor in leveraging OPM.  Numbers are approximate.  I understand there are variables.  Looking forward for investors and retirees who did it as well as financial experts to chip in.  Thanks.