Skip to content
×
Try PRO Free Today!
BiggerPockets Pro offers you a comprehensive suite of tools and resources
Market and Deal Finder Tools
Deal Analysis Calculators
Property Management Software
Exclusive discounts to Home Depot, RentRedi, and more
$0
7 days free
$828/yr or $69/mo when billed monthly.
$390/yr or $32.5/mo when billed annually.
7 days free. Cancel anytime.
Already a Pro Member? Sign in here
Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties. Try BiggerPockets PRO.
x
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Joshua Cook

Joshua Cook has started 3 posts and replied 8 times.

@Dave Foster Ah, thanks for your input. Cap expenses is just a real turn off, haha. Yea, it might even be more down towards an 8% yearly cash return if I went super conservative with higher cap ex estimates, but hopefully it doesn't cost 12k PER unit. That does seem much for a 1200 sqft area, and only 2 kitchens and 2 bathrooms total; probably all the concrete drilling significantly adds to the price. Again, thanks for your thoughts. It might just come down to what I could potentially get for the duplex. The math might work out for the duplex to remain a decent investment, especially since I've already gone through the hassle of buying it and doing a good bit of upgrades, but man, the mental stress I have whenever something goes wrong is irrational but real. I'm over in the Tampa area.

Quote from @Dave Foster:

@Joshua Cook, that's a good analysis you've done. If you amortize out around $70K of expenses over 10years that would drop your 8.8 NOI to around 2K/year. That's the damage that unrealized cap ex can do to you.

The 1031 into new construction will be a multi year hedge against surprises while the market works through whatever it's going to work through.  And having extra cash to invest in a down turn is a bonus as well.

The real question is how much you like these.  Since you perceive that the price is not likely to adjust down again (btw - never say never.  A lot of folks said that in 07 and 99 and 89 etc)

1031ing away from capex is a common strategy.

 Thanks for your response, especially from another FL investor like yourself! To clarify, that 8% cash on cash return I quoted was what my return would be with including those forecasted expenses due in 9 years as well as the already incurred $25k. 

Have you ever had to re-pipe underground water copper pipes before on any of your properties, assuming you own some? I'm assuming FL soil doesn't help the longevity. I have spent a decent while reading and learning about expected repairs and such, but I've never heard of people adding re-piping into those expected costs. Even when people talk about capital expenditures on the podcast or books, it's never about copper pipe replacement on homes several decades' old; rather, it's always the roof, AC, or water heaters, which, I suppose, are all more immediate repairs when compared to something that might need replacing in 40 years. I don't get how these people investing in Jacksonville pull it off, then. Many homes on the market up there are pretty dang old.

What would you do in this situation? From your response, it sounds like you would try to get a favorable price to sell it at.

Duplex:

-Purchase price: $155,000

-600 sqft 2/1 each unit

-1979 concrete

-Rents for $1,000/unit/mo

-PITI is $940/yr

-Property management fee: 7%

Option 1:

I've put probably $25,000 cash into upgrades and repairs since purchase two years ago. Yet, the water heaters would probably need to be replaced in the next several years in each unit ($3k total), the roof is 10 years (around $8k), and the ACs in 8 years ($8k~ total). 

Yet, here's the big expense I've never accounted for: underground copper pipe replumbing. I had a plumber somewhat recently say that due to corrosion and the age of the duplex, he estimates I'd have to re-pipe both units in 5+ years, briefly estimating the job to cost $12k PER unit. So in addition to the $25,000 of repairs and upgrades I've had to do, I'm anticipating $43,000 more costs in the next, let's say, 9 years due to the aforementioned items. 

If I calculate in my cost-to-close, PITI of $940~, a vacancy rate of 8.5%, an expense rate of 6%, and $68,000 ($25k previously paid and $43k expected) of capital costs as if I paid them now, I get an 8.6% cash on cash return, with a 10.6% overall return if I calculate in principal paydown. If I leave out that $68,000 cash outlay, it's a 25% cash on cash return. Duplexes in my area will never likely go down into a price range again that makes economic sense as rentals. This one cashflow $8.8k/yr.

Option 2:

My realtor/property manager said he'd be interested in buying the property and giving me a flexible closing schedule so I can 1031 exchange ($1.25k fee per property involved, so $3.75k) for two new-build SFHs that I'm in contract to close on in April. I have enough cash to keep the duplex and buy these two new homes (let's hope rates don't rocket up), but doing an exchange will allow me to keep more cash on hand for any market corrections, avoid capital gains, and essentially upgrade to two SFHs that will cash flow nicely. We haven't talked about the price yet, but I'm hoping to get $240,000 or so for it, and asking if he'd be willing to drop any agent commissions in the transaction. 

At this price, I will almost be able to fully fund both new SFHs with the proceeds of this sale. Notice the appreciation for this property has gone up considerably in a little over two years, and I have a roughly $113k mortgage on it, so a good chunk of equity is there.

So,

Would you hold long-term, accept the costs, and essentially have these big capital expenditures eat up most of the profit I make in 9 years once these inevitable repairs come around
OR
Would you sell, take advantage of the rapid equity increase and the timing of the two contracted SFHs, avoiding the upcoming capital expenditures, thereby keeping more cash on the sidelines in case Microsoft and Apple stock nosedive soon (hehe)?

(Please, feel free to correct any misunderstandings or wrong perspectives I might be displaying or ask any questions. I want to learn about your investment philosophy and any beneficial, accurate ways to think about these issues. For instance, am I thinking about these future capital expenditures wrong, especially when adding them to present-day cash on cash calculation?)

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Joshua Cook you may find this interesting. This podcast guest specializes in sink hole properties.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

Wow, I'm reading the transcript, and yea, she is talking about sinkholes in an area about 15 minutes away from me! Spring Hill, definitely a big sinkhole area, and next door to the city where I'm scheduled to buy a property. Thanks for the link!

Thanks, Joe! I'll check that out right now.

I live and have been buying properties in Florida. I currently own a duplex and primary residence in Pasco, and I'm scheduled to buy a new build next week in Hernando, and another in Citrus Springs.

One of my biggest worries have started to plague my mind once again: a sinkhole opening up on my property. Imagine me as Gandalf, clinging onto the stony edge of an abyss with fear in my eyes, "Fly, you fools," before I plummet into the depths of the earth.

I'm aware of Pasco, Hernando, and Hillsborough counties having issues with sink holes; apparently these areas make up 2/3 of the amount of claims in FL. Heck, when I first moved to Florida from WA, USAA would not provide me with a home-owner's policy because of the risk of sink holes (of course I found this out after I already moved!).

How do any of you other Florida investors protect yourself mentally or investment physically? I'm aware that standard policies have to have catastrophic coverage, but that, ironically, is the worst-case scenario: you'll get a check for the house and your principal is safe essentially. Whereas minor sinkhole openings on your property not only leave you the bill to remedy the problem, but also permanently tank the value of your property unto eternity.

To all the other investors here: am I crazy for even contemplating owning more houses in Florida? The market is hot, indeed, and there's good deals in crazy-growing areas, like here in Pasco county. Yet it feels like the gamble might be too big, especially once you open up state databases and visually see sinkhole incidents throughout the neighborhoods. I was drawn to real estate investing to avoid high investment risks. I can insure flood, hurricane, termite damage, but sinkhole damage seems absolute, unknown, and permanent. Should I just invest in Apple from now on and call it good?

Thanks!

Update: Ended up going with a different lender. Got a better rate, and the appraisal with the new appraiser came in $5,000 above the contract price.

Lesson: don't feel like you have to settle on one lender. Always investigate more options and try to have the seller work with you to navigate those options.

I got a duplex under contract for 155k with 3% towards closing costs. It appraised low at $144k, which seems way off the mark to all parties involved, especially since an almost exact duplicate duplex that is a tad smaller and older down the street is pending and appraised at-value at $157,000.

The listing agent and seller said they would "drop" down to $150k (they were essentially there with the concessions) and drop the concessions but are not 100% unwilling to go down further. The seller agent is friends with that comp I previously mentioned; with that comp in their head, the sellers are hoping I break the deal so they can go back on market with that comp to back up a better price. They are not eager to sell considering the place is already tenanted with very good rent despite one unit being under market by $75/mo. With my estimates, it cash flows $500 (including PM, 2% vacancy, 5% repairs, 5% capex) giving me a 12.7% cash return, down from the 14.5% pre-appraisal.

I've talked to my bank rep, and she tells me that appraisals are highly regulated and it might be tough getting another appraiser to look at the property, but we've sent some comps, including the one I previously mentioned (although the appraiser also refers to that), to see if the guy would revise and proceed to seeing if I can get a new one. Meanwhile, the sellers' agent is asking us if we are going to cancel, yadayada.

The the most-weighted comp the appraiser used was a duplex that sold about a month ago, but only had a 1/1 in one unit. It sold for 140k, about 4k less than my duplex with 2/1s. There's not a lot of duplexes in the area as demand is high and inventory is low, so it's hard to find comps, granted. 

What are your recommendations? I've even looked into possibly just changing my lender, which would probably peeve off the seller, if I cant get a new appraiser here.

Pay the $6k extra, making my cash outlay $48,000 (it was 39,000 pre appraisal) since the return is good, and, come Feb, I can increase rents for a 14% cash return? Fight for a new appraiser? Get a new lender?

Or just scrap the whole thing and try again to find a property worth brrrr-ing despite not finding anything for months? I'm enamored with the brrrr method as Mr. Greene praises it, but I can't find those deals, and dont desire to hound potential sellers down, which is why I've opted to just simply find cash flowing deals in growing areas.