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All Forum Posts by: Joseph Hennis

Joseph Hennis has started 3 posts and replied 96 times.

Post: You have 6 months to liquidate your assets

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @James Hamling:
Originally posted by @Vince Ivanov:

People keep saying that this time it’s different because people have a lot more equity in their houses. This is not entirely true. Many people who bought in 2019 and early 2020 are potentially under water.

 We keep saying this is different from 08/09 crash because it IS different, in every conceivable way possible, every, nothing is the same. 

08/09 was a collapse of a financial system that effected the entire global economy due to the particulars of it, which created a recession. 

This is different, plain and simple. Economy was humming along like a jet plane. Think about it, the economy was performing awesome despite trade wars ongoing, despite political turmoil, thats a beast of a strong economy. 

Then covid, and government restrictions. There is literally nothing the same between these two incident, different catalyst, different mitigating factors, different starting, different players, different responses, different governmental level of primary response, just all around different. 

 It doesn't matter why prices tank to the people who lose equity, though, does it?  An economy crash is an economy crash.  A crash equals lower home prices and usually lower rent prices, tightening lending by banks.  It also doesn't matter at all what the economy was like prior to a crash.  It's just the crash that matters.

Arguing whether or not this crash is created in a different way than other crashes in history doesn't change the result.  If a fire is caused by an electrical malfunction or a propane tank or a forest fire, does the house burn differently?  Does it matter, if the result is ashes either way?

My point was to argue with your assumption that if someone has equity prior to a crash caused by a pandemic, that their equity won't be hurt.  That's simply not logical.  You're assuming that the value of their property won't go down.  I hope you're right, but in my opinion, that's just really simply not logical.

I'm old enough that I've witnessed several crashes.  The result on the real estate market was always the same.

 You too are overfitting the data. Just because you've seen a million crashes doesn't mean the next one will be like the last.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfitting

We don't know whats going to happen. In your analogy, the house always burns down. But this house is built differently from the last house. Could be fireproof. Fed Money printer goes BRRRR.

Post: You have 6 months to liquidate your assets

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84
Originally posted by @Thor Sveinbjoernsson:

I’ve been doing a lot of research lately and I wanted to share with you guys what I have found about the correlation between unemployment, delinquencies and housing prices. During the 2008 housing crisis the housing market bottomed about 2 years after the peak in delinquencies. Note that delinquencies are very much so correlated with unemployment rates (see graph on link below). Unemployment is already about twice the peak in 2008 so it is very likely that delinquencies will follow, which will lead to increased supply of housing.

See data here, gathered by stanford researches: https://web.stanford.edu/~pavelkr/jmp_slides.pdf

Conclusion: You have about 6 months to sell off your assets until the market will be flooded with fire sales and forclosures.



 Dang dude you figured it out. This whole time I thought the economy was complicated n stuff. Now I can just track the unemployment rate, short the housing market, and get filthy rich. Thanks man.

FYI from the data you provided in your slides... Unemployment was a lagging indicator in 2008 economic downturn. Delinquencies led unemployment... That is from your own data.

Post: You have 6 months to liquidate your assets

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84
Originally posted by @James Hamling:

@Thor Sveinbjoernsson what you have put out is the single worst, most incorrect over-simplification of the " 08/09 Housing Collapse", written with complete and total ignorance of every financial and investment market mechanism involved INCLUDING the actual housing market data and factors involved. And the fact that your calling yourself an accountant! I am totally blown away and terrified for business persons who may be looking to you for sound business advice that they would catalyze into actual actions. 

First off, the housing collapse was (in a simplified manner) 2 MAIN actions: a housing SURPLUS (and a massive one at that) AND a significant monetary contraction. Thats it, NOTHING like today, nothing at all. 

The monetary contraction was a ticking time bomb, it's was destined to happen by the sheer design of it and as you were oblivious to all of this I will not attempt to get into the finer detail of mortgage-backed securities and the layering of tranches. Short story, the securities were destined to fail AND those securities had factors of x20/x40.x50+ of funds gambled upon them so each security that went down took a grossly disproportionate amount of capital down with it. 

At this point you may be asking "this guy seems to know a bit more than average on this", yeah, because I was actually there, and I spent a time as a Mortgage Banker to boot. The housing collapse was a monster sized freight train that many fo us saw coming miles away, not to the full extent of what it was BUT many of us in the business knew a correction was coming, knew lending was hugely inflating the market, knew the math of over-supply and on and on all meant correction was coming, we just didn't know when and how bad. 

Today, we are in a housing SHORTAGE. We do NOT have the same crazy system on mortgage-backed securities we had in 08/09, or to be more accurate the Jenga stack of gambles is not built in a way as it was. 

There is so much distortion in your post and promotion that it verges on criminal. For example, saying everyone better hurry and sell in next 6 months "or else" there will be mass flooding of market with sales, your telling people to flood the market genius. Thats inciting a run on the market. Your inciting fear and panic. 

Your correlating unemployment with housing market collapse, well guess what, pre 08/09 collapse unemployment was under 4%. So by your logic low unemployment = housing collapse, because thats what it was. It was the housing collapse that made unemployment rise, not the other way around. 

i gotta stop, because I could literally write pages of false information and false premise in your doom pandering, with matching pages of actual economic and financial reality, basically all those things actual accountants learn in a university which is why I am confused by your stated position and statements, they don't match at all. 

Will unemployment effect mortgage defaults and the economy, absolutely, and not in the manner stated because we DON'T have a declining market we have a restricted market from regulation suspension. What the difference, well a declining market is one where the whole is reducing from fundamental factors, a restricted one, which we are in, is where desired economic activity is restricted and with that it builds tension, like a spring, and as restriction are removed that tension is expressed by massive economic boom. Don't believe me, just look everywhere that is opening and removing restrictions. 

Look, I'm not an economist, but I did study economics, and all this I am saying is a combination of life business experience and that economics study and basic principles, all of which are and have proved true over and over again. There is NO collapse coming like this ya-hoo is trying to incite. 

 So I already gave Thor a hard time about overfitting the data and assuming a collapse is coming... But you seem to be overfitting in the opposite direction and assuming there is no collapse coming.

Here's the fact of the matter: We DON'T KNOW if a collapse is coming... Unless maybe you are from the future... In that case please PM me, I want to know which stocks to pick.

All we know are the risks that are out there, and we should be prepared to weather whatever storm may come. Personally, I am sitting on a pile of cash, but I am not liquidating all my assets. If you are leveraged beyond your means already, then liquidating may be a good idea, even if a collapse doesn't come.

Post: You have 6 months to liquidate your assets

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84
Originally posted by @Thor Sveinbjoernsson:

@Paul Shannon

I agree with you with the inflation that will most likely occur and could potentially push prices up in the short term, but that is not sustainable. With the fed’s balance sheet up to 27 trillion, there has to come a time where rationality will kick in to prevent us from ending up like Zimbabwe.

 The risk right now is deflation, not inflation. You assume much. Don't overfit the data.

Post: You have 6 months to liquidate your assets

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84

@Thor Sveinbjoernsson In 2008 delinquencies were not a result of unemployment. It was the other way around. Unemployment was caused by delinquencies. Delinquencies were caused by exploding subprime mortgages, when payments went from 1000 a month to 3000 a month.

You need to be careful about correlating any data from the past with data for the future. That's known as over-fitting the data! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfitting

Look, your overall thesis that "s gonna hit the fan" might be correct, but it may be correct for reasons other than you stated, and you just got lucky in picking the direction. That is confirmation bias, another common investor trap. 

Right now all we can do is outline risks, and plan accordingly for whatever scenario may come. Unemployment is certainly a risk, the exposure of residential real estate to commercial real estate decline due to the large number of AirBNBs is a risk. There are also risk mitigating factors, such as the fed printer and forbearance. So plan accordingly, and if what you feel is an acceptable plan for you is to liquidate, then do what you need to do. Personally I am already sitting on a pile of cash. Plenty enough to ride out the storm and some extra in case opportunities come up. But I am still keeping some assets.

On my un-renovated properties in Ogden Utah, I am running about 20% in repairs plus capex (actual not projected). I assume it would be lower for a renovated property.

@Account Closed did you even read the article you linked? Well, at least I did... Let me help you with what you missed.

In C.A.R.’s newest market indicator of future price appreciation, Market Velocity – home sales relative to the number of new listings coming on line each month to replenish that sold inventory – continued its upward momentum in May, suggesting that home prices should grow further in the upcoming months. Solid demand motivated by low interest rates, coupled with tight supply, put upward pressure on prices in the last few months as the home buying season remained competitive. The statewide median price should remain near its recent high until late summer or early fall. Market Velocity is strongly correlated with increases/decreases in price growth with a roughly three- to six-month lag time.

Sales are down because inventory is down. Supply is tight. Doesn't look like a bubble but prices are going higher. We should expect construction to pick up with prices this high.

In the last bubble, we were building houses everywhere you looked. There was an over supply during the last bubble, but that wasn't evident because we turned renters into owners by giving them loans they couldn't afford. If you talk to mortgage brokers today, most will tell you buyers today are well qualified. Have you tried getting loans lately? Not as easy as 2005.

If this is a bubble, where's the irrational exuberance?

Post: New to multi-family, would love feedback

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84

You are going to be real tight, even negative on cashflow, that's for sure.

More due diligence is required. Call a property manager and ask him/her what typical rents are in the area, high, low, average. What would it take to make the property rent on the high side? Have a contractor give you an estimate for that work, plus repairs. Finally, what do the comparable sales tell you about the after repair value of the property


Real estate investing is not a gamble. You should know before you invest what your expected returns will be.

Using the calculator at:

https://financialmentor.com/calculator/real-estate...

I get a cash on cash return of 5% using some generous numbers (0% vacancy, which could actually be the case, my duplexes are 0% vacancy in ogden at a similar price point). I like my cash on cash return to be higher, but only you can know what your investing criteria should be. Many on BP go for 10-20% cash on cash. The possibility of improving the property and increasing rents might push the cash on cash return up. Only with proper investigation can you know for sure.

Post: When's this bubble going to pop?

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84

What I will say about strategy in boom/bust cycles: use dollar cost averaging. Right now we are in a boom, time to decrease your housing inventory (not eliminate it!), buy less and hold shorter periods of time. During a bust, you increase your housing inventory, buy more and hold longer.

From investopedia: 

What is 'Dollar-Cost Averaging - DCA'

Dollar-cost averaging (DCA) is an investment technique of buying a fixed dollar amount of a particular investment on a regular schedule, regardless of the share price. The investor purchases more shares when prices are low and fewer shares when prices are high. The premise is that DCA lowers the average share cost over time, increasing the opportunity to profit. The DCA technique does not guarantee that an investor won't lose money on investments. Rather, it is meant to allow investment over time instead of investment as a lump sum.



Read more: Dollar-Cost Averaging (DCA) http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dollarcostaveraging.asp#ixzz4mV1o3OF3

Post: When's this bubble going to pop?

Joseph HennisPosted
  • Fairfield, CA
  • Posts 98
  • Votes 84

I too want another crash. I made out like a bandit during the last one... But wanting something and getting something are two entirely different things.

We are not in a real estate bubble... yet. I want to be specific here. Not every boom is a bubble! Right now we are in a normal boom period of a boom/bust cycle.

During 2003-2005, we were building houses like crazy. I worked construction during that boom, 10-12 hr days 6-7 days a week, guys side jobbing all day long. At that time, we built a housing surplus. With an excess of supply, you would expect prices to go down right? Nope, easy lending turned apartment dwellers into home owners and prices were going up despite the surplus.

After the crash, tons of construction companies went out of business. My old job is gone, the construction company of 30+ years with it. For the last decade, home building has been very weak with population still growing. This has lead to a housing shortage. Economists of a decade ago predicted it. Seemed absurd at the time that the crash would lead to a housing shortage, but here we are.

What you've got to pay attention to isn't the home prices, it's the housing affordability index. Right now affordability is a little frothy, but not crazy. Affordability is about where it is during boom years. Even if prices are higher than the bubble years, if they are more affordable, there is no problem.

Are there conditions which could lead this boom into a bubble? Sure. We aren't there yet though.

Car affordability index data. Look at slide 2 with the historical %'s. We are just a bit less affordable than the 90's and WAY more affordable than 2003-2006 bubble years.
http://www.car.org/marketdata/data/haitraditional/