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All Forum Posts by: Account Closed

Account Closed has started 3 posts and replied 108 times.

Post: Allure Fooring

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38
Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
Originally posted by Jon P.:
I used some Armstrong brand vinyl plank flooring that I found at Lowes on sale for .99 a square foot. I've never used Allure so I can't compare, but I was happy with the Armstrong.

Peel and stick or floating? I did some cheaper peel and stick planks, but the seams don't look great a couple of years later.

Jon, the Armstrong product I used was floating. The planks stick to each other but not the subfloor.

Post: Allure Fooring

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38

I used some Armstrong brand vinyl plank flooring that I found at Lowes on sale for .99 a square foot. I've never used Allure so I can't compare, but I was happy with the Armstrong.

Post: LLC or sole prop

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38
Originally posted by Terry P.:
Originally posted by Jon P.:
In the context of the rental property business, an LLC can be a disadvantage because your LLC cannot qualify for government-subsidized financing through Fannie or Freddie. Rates are not as favorable for LLCs, even with a personal guaranty.

Owners of LLCs can get Fannie subsidized loans through this program: http://www.homepath.com/financing.html

Extract: " a limited number of HomePath lenders also now offer HomePath Mortgage for the LLC borrower"

Down payment is 10% vs 3%, but no limit on residing in the dwelling for LLCs where as 2 yrs for SP.

To the extent this exists, it is only for Homepath properties, which make up a very small percentage of the properties on the market.

Conventional loans for non-owner properties typically require 20% (or more) down - not 3%.

Post: LLC for Property Management?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38

The consensus of this thread is correct. Setting up an LLC for you to act as property manager is not going to provide much, if any, liability protection. The tenant or other injured party would just name you as the defendant in any lawsuit.

Add plenty of liablity coverage to your property insurance. My insurance company limits me to $500,000 per house. If you have substantial assets, you should look at an umbrella policy on top of that.

Post: LLC or sole prop

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38

"Aren't most cases landlords concern themselves with "liability cases"? You may not do anything negligent but your tenant or the tenant's guest will insist that you did. Maybe I am using the term wrong but I consider any bypass of the LLC to be "piercing" it. I don't think there will be too many claims by others that your LLC is not really a separate entity. The main concern I have is lawsuits where it is claimed I am at fault. It seems only natural that a lawyer would go after the LLC owner because he is the owner/manager after all."

The plaintiff will certainly allege negligence on the part of the property owner, but he does have to prove it by a preponderance of the evidence. I think the property owner is in a much stronger position if he has hired a professional to address the safety issue rather than addressing the safety issue himself. To paraphrase an example from a prior discussion in this thread, if you do a terrible job building a porch railing yourself, and it injures someone, it will be easy for them to prove you were negligent. But if you hire a professional carpenter to build it and he does a terrible job, you weren't necessarily negligent in hiring him. You may have been perfectly reasonable in your assumption that he would do a good job.

I don't want to use the term "piercing" the LLC, because that term has a specific legal meaning and a specific body of case law. Suing the owner directly does not require the plaintiff to pierce the LLC.

"One other disadvantage you did not list is that most courts will not let you represent your LLC for things like evictions in court."

Yes, definitely a disadvantage for the non-lawyer in jurisdictions that don't allow you to represent your LLC.

"Given the extra expense and effort I still do not see the advantage of an LLC if any lawyer can just walk though it like a paper wall and sue you individually."

I share your skepticism about the value of the single-member LLC for the rental property owner, particularly for an owner that manages his/her own properties.

Post: LLC or sole prop

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38

This is my attempt to definitively answer the question – should I form a single member LLC to hold my rental property or should I operate as a sole proprietor?

This is not legal advice. Consult a lawyer licensed to practice in your state.

The primary benefit of forming an LLC is liability protection. If someone obtains a judgment against your LLC (and not against you personally), then your personal property, including other LLCs that you own, is not at risk. If your LLC borrows money, you will not have personal liability for repayment (assuming you have not given a personal guaranty). If your LLC goes bankrupt and defaults on its contracts, there is a good chance you will not be personally liable for the breach of those contracts.

But there are two key areas of liability that an LLC does not adequately protect you from:

1. Liability for any action you personally perform or oversee. If I create an LLC for my dental practice, the LLC does not protect me from a lawsuit if I kill somebody by giving them too much anesthesia. I will be held personally liable. The same is true if I manage my own rental property and my tenant dies of smoke inhalation because my rental property didn't have any smoke detectors. The LLC might protect me if my property is managed by a professional property manager and the contract between the property manager and my LLC makes it clear that the property manager is required to install and maintain smoke detectors on the property. There is a good discussion of this issue earlier in this thread.

Note that this is not the same as "piercing" your LLC – a concept frequently discussed on these boards. There is no requirement that the plaintiff prove your LLC was a sham, or that you didn't maintain it properly. The plaintiff simply needs to prove that you personally were negligent.

2. Judgments against you that are unrelated to your rental property. If someone successfully sues you for hitting them with your car or defaulting on your credit cards, that judgment creditor can come after your LLC. Remedies vary by state, but every state at least allows a judgment creditor (anyone who wins a judgment against you) to obtain a charging order against your single-member LLC. The charging order entitles the judgment creditor to take your LLC distributions to satisfy the judgment. In some states, you can defeat the judgment creditor by not taking any distributions, but I do not consider this to be adequate liability protection.

Another potential benefit of an LLC is to create the appearance of legitimacy for your business. It may make it easier for you to keep your business and personal records separate and organized. An LLC allows you to hide your ownership of a property from the county records. If this is your intent, have a lawyer form your LLC for you to keep your name off of the filing documents.

There are costs involved in forming an LLC. You will have to pay filing fees. Most states require some type of annual filing, including a fee. Most people will need an attorney to draft their organizational documents and advise them on how to operate and maintain their LLC. In the context of the rental property business, an LLC can be a disadvantage because your LLC cannot qualify for government-subsidized financing through Fannie or Freddie. Rates are not as favorable for LLCs, even with a personal guaranty. Some investors will get a loan in their name and then transfer the property to an LLC. I don't like this strategy because it is a breach of your mortgage agreement. I understand anecdotally that lenders do not enforce the "due on sale" clause in this situation, but it would make a lot of sense for them to start enforcing it if mortgage rates increase significantly.

Having laid out the positives and negatives, here is my answer to the question:

If any of the following are true, you should operate as a sole proprietor because the LLC will not be worth the cost:

1. You want to borrow money against the property and you can qualify for financing through Fannie or Freddie. In my opinion, the benefit of government-subsidized financing through Fannie or Freddie outweighs the liability protection and other benefits provided by the LLC;
2. You have little or no assets, income or expectation of future income (in other words, you are judgment-proof); or
3. You don’t have the discipline and/or intelligence to keep the LLC separate from your personal business. This means conducting business pursuant to a valid operating agreement, conducting all of the LLC business through a separate bank account, keeping business records, and always signing contracts in your capacity as a representative of the LLC (and not in your personal capacity).

If all of the following are true, then you should form an LLC for your rental property:

1. You don’t plan to borrow any money against the property, or you can’t qualify for Fannie/Freddie financing anyway;
2. You don't live in California or some other state that charges exorbitant fees to form and/or maintain an LLC; and
3. You have either (i) some equity in the property, (ii) some other valuable assets, or (iii) a decent income or the expectation of a decent income in the future (you are not judgment-proof).

A couple of bonus thoughts:

1. If you are going to enter into any business with partners or multiple owners, then you should almost certainly form an LLC (or perhaps a limited partnership or corporation, depending on the situation). If you do not form an entity, you will be treated as a general partnership, which offers no liability protection.

2. The LLC would be my third line of defense against lawsuits. It can be a valuable tool in an asset protection strategy, but it is not sufficient by itself. The first line of defense would be to operate my business in a safe and responsible manner. The second line of defense would be to carry substantial amounts of liability insurance. If you have assets in excess of your liability coverage, get an umbrella policy.

Post: LLC or sole prop

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38
Originally posted by Terry P.:
Florida case looks like LLC owner was guilty of illegal trade practices.

In the case of a personal auto, non LLC related personal injuries that area of law is different than business liability, WC, contract, etc.....

You are looking at what kind of claim led to the judgment, and whether the claim was related to the business of the LLC. These factors are irrelevant to determining the level of asset protection your LLC provides after a judgment has been entered against you. Look at the Kansas statute authorizing charging orders.

K.S. 17-76, 113 "On application to a court of competent jurisdiction by any judgment creditor of a member, the court may charge the LLC interest of the member with payment of the unsatisfied amount of the judgment with interest."

It doesn't matter whether the judgment was the result of a car accident, failure to pay your personal credit card bills, or a judgment against you for acting negligently with respect to your business. The holder of the judgment is a judgment creditor and has exactly the same right as any other judgment creditor to come after your LLCs.

Post: LLC or sole prop

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38

"So much for charging orders"

You can defeat the judgment creditor who holds a charging order by never taking any distributions from LLC. But this is typically not a good situation for the LLC owner.

"These articles and examples have to do with "personal creditors", not judgments from business or work related injuries resulting from owning real-estate. At best as noted above they are not that effective, sounds like at the federal level and consequently state level ambiguous and vague, "unknown". Common sense tell us that a single LLC is going to be easier to pierce, and the operating agreement should address a legal course of interest should a member become at a risk…..there are ways to protect assets, and yes Liability and WC insurance adds more protection, but the biggest means of protection is operate the business as separate entity, legally, and per the insurance policies exclusions."

My responses have been in the context of Marcin's example, which was a judgment against the LLC owner who hit people with his car. If someone wins a judgment against your LLC (and not you personally) then the analysis is completely different. That is where the argument about piercing the entity would come in. If the plaintiff has no claim against you personally and cannot pierce the entity, then your other LLCs would not be at risk.

If, however, someone wins a judgment against you personally, then all of your LLC interests are at risk of a charging order and, in some states, your single-member LLCs are at risk of being liquidated. It doesn't matter if the judgment is issued because you defaulted on your credit cards, hit someone with your car, or if you negligently managed rental properties that are owned by your LLC - anyone who gets a judgment against you is a judgment creditor.

"I don't believe everything I read on the internet, especially legal hype that site actual case #'s? or state statue? "

Google these cases:

Olmstead v. FTC (Florida Supreme Court 2010). The Florida Supreme Court ruled that the judgment creditor of the owner of a single-member LLC can take possession of the LLC to satisfy the judgment.

Meyer v. Christie (US District Court - Kansas, 2011). A quote:

"However, as set out in the KRLLCA, where the member/debtor is the sole member of the LLC at the time of the assignment under the charging order, the assignee/creditor shall have the right to participate in the management of the business and affairs of the LLC as a member."

General Electric Capital Corporation v. JLT Aircraft Holding Co. LLC. (Minnesota, 2010). Judgment was entered against Gerald Tooien and two of his LLCs. The court granted a charging order against Tooien's interest in 28 or so other limited partnerships and LLCs.

Post: LLC or sole prop

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38

Your rentals will be at risk in this scenario. If a judgment is entered against you, the court has the power to liquidate your LLC to fulfill the judgment.

I don't believe you are correct can you point to your source, case law? If it happened "outside of the rental business" it is going to be hard or next to impossible to get an LLC judgement if it did nothing wrong...Even if that happen, most states have a statue for "charging orders" and/or foreclosure to the members interest and protect the LLC from being liquidated or having to go out of business. Further, there is federal bankruptcy court and ways to transfer interest. LLP gets more complicated.

http://www.leonard.com/files/PDF/Asset%20Protection%20and%20the%20Limited%20Liability%20Company.pdf

Remedies vary by state, and in many states you are limited to a charging order - so I should have qualified my statement above. But if the judgment is against you personally, there is no requirement that the judgment be related to your rental business in order for the judgment creditor to obtain a charging order against your LLC. Or foreclose on your LLC interest, or liquidate your single-member LLC, in states that permit those remedies.

Post: LLC Classification: Partnership, Corporation, or S Corporation?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Residential Real Estate Broker
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 114
  • Votes 38
Originally posted by Lucas Bonasio:
Thank you for all the info.

I'm also new to Real Estate investing and I'm about to buy my first rental property.

I have not formed an LLC yet, but I'm thinking about forming one prior to purchasing my first income producing rental property.

My goal is to generate revenue only from rental properties, and to be the only owner of the properties - Single member LLC.
So in this case should I open an LLC and just be considered a "disregarded entity" by the IRS? Is this the option that would better suite me when it comes to taxes?

Also, I've read in other posts that some investors open one LLC for every building they own. Is that what you call a "series", Bryan?

Please take a look at these two scenarios, and let me know if my thoughts are correct:

I have 10 multi-family buildings, owned by my "X" LLC. If a tenant from one of the 10 buildings sue me for any reason, his claim would have "access" to all the LLC's equity, represented by the 10 buildings I own under that LLC.

Now, if I have 10 multi-family buildings, each of them owned by a different "X", "Y", "Z", etc LLC (i.e. I would have 10 LLCs). If the tenant of one of the buildings sue me, then in this case his claims would have access only to the equity of one of the the buildings, since the LLC that "owns" that building only "owns" ONE building.

Is this correct?

Thank you,

Lucas

This isn't quite right. If someone gets a judgment against one of your LLCs, your other LLCs are safe. But if someone gets a judgment against you personally, all of your single-member LLCs are at risk.

In some states the judgment creditor can only get a charging order to take the distributions from the LLC. Other states allow foreclosure on your LLC. And some states will alllow the judgment creditor to liquidate your LLC. This article has a pretty good summary, although I can't vouch for the chart at the end (it appears to be wrong with respect to Florida):

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/llc-asset-protection-charging-orders.html

http://www.foley.com/files/publication/ea1efec4-6da7-430f-9a2a-cbde0a85b18f/presentation/publicationattachment/182846ac-53ac-4e62-9948-d2395ff83078/americanbankruptcyinstitutejournal.pdf