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All Forum Posts by: John Lowe

John Lowe has started 1 posts and replied 33 times.

Post: Disadvantages of investing in Turnkey

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

The turnkey business model has a fatal flaw that can only be overcome in a market that experiences significant appreciation. In its absence, turnkey investing will be disappointing in the long run. 

I assert that turnkey investing will not work in Chicago. I wrote a post on this in another thread. I don't know how to post a link to it, so I cut and pasted it here in the hope that someone will take me up on my challenge.

Here’s an analogy that may be helpful in illustrating the fundamental problem of a turnkey rental strategy. Take a 2012 Honda Accord ES in pristine condition, low mileage, loaded with every available option: premium wheels, top of the line infotainment/GPS system, sunroof, etc. Its worth 14k. Another ES in fair condition, with high mileage and no options, is worth 11k. While the cars are very different, the differential in price is only 27%. The value of a car is primarily determined by the year, make and model. Condition and equipment are relatively minor factors. The same is true for real estate. Upgrading the mechanicals, finishing a basement, installing granite countertops, there are dozens of ways to spend thousands of dollars improving a house. While it may have a measurable impact, the primary determinant of a house's value is location. Turnkey operators are buying cheap houses and over improving them. A $5000 set of mag wheels on a $10,000 car doesn’t make the car worth $15,000. Neither does putting 30k in improvements in a 40k house make it worth 70k.

An investor using a competent turnkey operator, should not have a horror story in the immediate future. That would only occur if the operator seriously miscalculated rental demand or did shoddy construction. Good operators buy (cheap but) decent houses, fix them up in tip top shape, with the bling to attract tenants who will pay a premium for that new house smell. Any aging components should have be replaced so the investor shouldn't have major cap ex for the first 5-7 years. In the short run things look good, but shortcomings in the underlaying fundamentals can’t be avoided. The investor is likely to experience disappointment in the long term. The first surprise may occur in a couple of years, when the first tenant moves out and the investor needs to spend 2k to get the property back into ready to rent condition (the cost of painting, re-carpeting, fixing dinged up kitchen cabinet doors, etc. adds up). The property may take a bit longer to rent out this time, since its not as fresh as it was. As the years go on, the investor is unable to raise the rent because the rental market is so competitive, rent levels are flat. Unfortunately, the same can’t be said with expenses. A couple of cap ex events occur in year 10 that eat up the equivalent of several years’ worth of profit. But the biggest disappointment comes 15 years down the road, when the investor sells and realize at closing that the proceeds are just enough to cover their loan balance.

Under the best case scenario, the pro forma ROI that turnkey providers quote may be hit the first year or two. I'd love to hear from anyone who's achieved their expected 10 year IRR. The only way to win big with turnkey rentals is with significant appreciation. I don't know about other areas, but that is not likely to happen in Chicago in the neighborhoods where the turnkey operators work. Here's an article that provides one explanation of why. Without getting into the sociology, I'll summarize: people don't always behave in an economically efficient manner.

http://danielkayhertz.com/2014/12/05/chicagos-grow...

Turnkey operators price their properties based on the income approach (which is typically used on commercial and 5+ unit multifamily properties). But the prevailing model for valuing 1-4 units is based on the comp approach. The problem arises when there is a large discrepancy between the two models. If I own a 6 flat and increase the rents by 50/mo per unit, I’ve increased the value of my building; if I appeal my tax bill and win a reduction, I’ve increased the value of my building. If I do the same actions with my rental house, the value is unchanged. The value of my house is roughly the same as the surrounding houses. My house is not inherently more valuable because its rented out and my neighbor’s house is not worth less because he lives in it. While the ludicrousness of this is obvious on houses, the flawed logic is a little less apparent with 2-4 flats. This is probably why Chicago turnkey operators are focusing on them. I don’t know how they are getting the banks to make loans at these inflated valuations, but I’m guessing they couldn’t get them to play this game with SFHs.

I’ll preface this by saying I’m just a landlord. Unless you’re looking to rent a 2 BR in the South Deering neighborhood, I’ve got nothing to sell anyone. I don’t personally know any turnkey operators in Chicago and have no vendetta against them. I’m just sharing my opinion.

Chicago is segregated and my comments do not apply to the north side, South Loop, Hyde Park, Kenwood, or gentrified areas. The areas of Chicago that have high rents relative to home prices are on the southside, "west side", and southern suburbs. That’s where the turnkey operators work, that’s also where my properties are. For the purposes of this discussion, these areas I'm referring to when I say Chicago.

Chicago turnkey properties are overpriced by a lot, like 90-100k too much. Every example I’ve seen on their websites is priced at least twice what the property is worth as a rental. I’m not talking about appraised value, as a buy and hold investor, that’s not necessarily relevant. Value for me is measured by lost opportunity cost (ie. what else can I get for my money).

There is no financial justification for paying 70k+ per unit for 2-4 flats in the neighborhoods where these turnkey properties are located. I won't refer to a specific example because it wouldn’t be fair to pick on one operator when they’re all doing the same thing, but if someone wants to post the specifics about their particular deal, I’ll be happy to respond with specific comparisons.

So let’s say an operator is selling a duplex for 170k that is rented out for 2200/mo, located in a marginal (with regard to the type of tenant it will attract) neighborhood.

Alternative 1: That same amount of money could be used to buy and fix up a couple of brick bungalows in Chatham or Pill Hill, two of the most desirable neighborhoods in Chicago. They'll rent for a combined 2700, to a higher quality tenant (resulting in less turnover, less management, higher ROI). While the properties may still not experience future appreciation (refer to the article in link above) there is appreciation baked in, achieved by buying it undervalued. In this example, a cost basis of ~65% of current market value. Overall, this strategy is less work, less risk, and earns a higher return than the stereotypical turnkey duplex.

Alternative 2: For those willing to assume more work and risk, in exchange for a higher ROI. The 170k could be used to buy 4 houses in neighborhoods similar to where the turnkey property is located. This would bring in 5000/mo rent. Many of the issues would be the same, but compared to equivalent multifamilies, detached houses are able to attract the best of the applicant pool and command higher rents.

Alternative 3: If asset appreciation is more important than interim cash flow, there are areas where gentrification is most likely to occur. These areas are obvious, and that anticipation is reflected in the prices. In the short run, the property bought for 170k might look and operate a lot like the turnkey duplex. But over the course of ownership, the IRR may be vastly superior because of exit strategies like a condo conversion 10 years down the road.

No matter what the investment goal is, turnkey properties aren't a good way to get there. I’m throwing down the gauntlet to any turnkey advocate. Please challenge me on any of this as it pertains to Chicago. I’d love to hear your case. If you provide the details of a deal we can analyze it here for all to see.

Post: Reference for Turnkey companies: Elite Invest, Memphis Invest

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

Here’s an analogy that may be helpful in illustrating the fundamental problem of a turnkey rental strategy. Take a 2012 Honda Accord ES in pristine condition, low mileage, loaded with every available option: premium wheels, top of the line infotainment/GPS system, sunroof, etc. Its worth 14k. Another ES in fair condition, with high mileage and no options, is worth 11k. While the cars are very different, the differential in price is only 27%. The value of a car is primarily determined by the year, make and model. Condition and equipment are relatively minor factors. The same is true for real estate. Upgrading the mechanicals, finishing a basement, installing granite countertops, there are dozens of ways to spend thousands of dollars improving a house. While it may have a measurable impact, the primary determinant of a house's value is location. Turnkey operators are buying cheap houses and over improving them. A $5000 set of mag wheels on a $10,000 car doesn’t make the car worth $15,000. Neither does putting 30k in improvements in a 40k house make it worth 70k.

An investor using a competent turnkey operator, should not have a horror story in the immediate future. That would only occur if the operator seriously miscalculated rental demand or did shoddy construction. Good operators buy (cheap but) decent houses, fix them up in tip top shape, with the bling to attract tenants who will pay a premium for that new house smell. Any aging components should have be replaced so the investor shouldn't have major cap ex for the first 5-7 years. In the short run things look good, but shortcomings in the underlaying fundamentals can’t be avoided. The investor is likely to experience disappointment in the long term. The first surprise may occur in a couple of years, when the first tenant moves out and the investor needs to spend 2k to get the property back into ready to rent condition (the cost of painting, re-carpeting, fixing dinged up kitchen cabinet doors, etc. adds up). The property may take a bit longer to rent out this time, since its not as fresh as it was. As the years go on, the investor is unable to raise the rent because the rental market is so competitive, rent levels are flat. Unfortunately, the same can’t be said with expenses. A couple of cap ex events occur in year 10 that eat up the equivalent of several years’ worth of profit. But the biggest disappointment comes 15 years down the road, when the investor sells and realize at closing that the proceeds are just enough to cover their loan balance.

Under the best case scenario, the pro forma ROI that turnkey providers quote may be hit the first year or two. I'd love to hear from anyone who's achieved their expected 10 year IRR. The only way to win big with turnkey rentals is with significant appreciation. I don't know about other areas, but that is not likely to happen in Chicago in the neighborhoods where the turnkey operators work. Here's an article that provides one explanation of why. Without getting into the sociology, I'll summarize: people don't always behave in an economically efficient manner.

http://danielkayhertz.com/2014/12/05/chicagos-growing-income-donut/

Turnkey operators price their properties based on the income approach (which is typically used on commercial and 5+ unit multifamily properties). But the prevailing model for valuing 1-4 units is based on the comp approach. The problem arises when there is a large discrepancy between the two models. If I own a 6 flat and increase the rents by 50/mo per unit, I’ve increased the value of my building; if I appeal my tax bill and win a reduction, I’ve increased the value of my building. If I do the same actions with my rental house, the value is unchanged. The value of my house is roughly the same as the surrounding houses. My house is not inherently more valuable because its rented out and my neighbor’s house is not worth less because he lives in it. While the ludicrousness of this is obvious on houses, the flawed logic is a little less apparent with 2-4 flats. This is probably why Chicago turnkey operators are focusing on them. I don’t know how they are getting the banks to make loans at these inflated valuations, but I’m guessing they couldn’t get them to play this game with SFHs.

I’ll preface this by saying I’m just a landlord. Unless you’re looking to rent a 2 BR in the South Deering neighborhood, I’ve got nothing to sell anyone. I don’t personally know any turnkey operators in Chicago and have no vendetta against them. I’m just sharing my opinion.

Chicago is segregated and my comments do not apply to the north side, South Loop, Hyde Park, Kenwood, or gentrified areas. The areas of Chicago that have high rents relative to home prices are on the southside, "west side", and southern suburbs. That’s where the turnkey operators work, that’s also where my properties are. For the purposes of this discussion, these areas I'm referring to when I say Chicago.

Chicago turnkey properties are overpriced by a lot, like 90-100k too much. Every example I’ve seen on their websites is priced at least twice what the property is worth as a rental. I’m not talking about appraised value, as a buy and hold investor, that’s not necessarily relevant. Value for me is measured by lost opportunity cost (ie. what else can I get for my money).

There is no financial justification for paying 70k+ per unit for 2-4 flats in the neighborhoods where these turnkey properties are located. I won't refer to a specific example because it wouldn’t be fair to pick on one operator when they’re all doing the same thing, but if someone wants to post the specifics about their particular deal, I’ll be happy to respond with specific comparisons.

So let’s say an operator is selling a duplex for 170k that is rented out for 2200/mo, located in a marginal (with regard to the type of tenant it will attract) neighborhood.

Alternative 1: That same amount of money could be used to buy and fix up a couple of brick bungalows in Chatham or Pill Hill, two of the most desirable neighborhoods in Chicago. They'll rent for a combined 2700, to a higher quality tenant (resulting in less turnover, less management, higher ROI). While the properties may still not experience future appreciation (refer to the article in link above) there is appreciation baked in, achieved by buying it undervalued. In this example, a cost basis of ~65% of current market value. Overall, this strategy is less work, less risk, and earns a higher return than the stereotypical turnkey duplex.

Alternative 2: For those willing to assume more work and risk, in exchange for a higher ROI. The 170k could be used to buy 4 houses in neighborhoods similar to where the turnkey property is located. This would bring in 5000/mo rent. Many of the issues would be the same, but compared to equivalent multifamilies, detached houses are able to attract the best of the applicant pool and command higher rents.

Alternative 3: If asset appreciation is more important than interim cash flow, there are areas where gentrification is most likely to occur. These areas are obvious, and that anticipation is reflected in the prices. In the short run, the property bought for 170k might look and operate a lot like the turnkey duplex. But over the course of ownership, the IRR may be vastly superior because of exit strategies like a condo conversion 10 years down the road.

No matter what the investment goal is, turnkey properties aren't a good way to get there. I’m throwing down the gauntlet to any turnkey advocate. Please challenge me on any of this as it pertains to Chicago. I’d love to hear your case. If you provide the details of a deal we can analyze it here for all to see.

Post: SAFE Act

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

You may want to consider complying with the regulations. Despite all the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth by investors, the hurdles aren't that high. If hiring a licensed RMO isn't cost effective, getting a license isn't too onerous in most states: take a 3 day class, and have a decent credit history. Some states have additional requirements, like bonding, but most folks on this forum could jump through the necessary hoops. Your state, Texas is one of the easier ones.

Here's a link to the requirements by state:

http://mortgage.nationwidelicensingsystem.org/slr/Pages/default.aspx

Post: I've decided I need to be a licensed Real Estate Agent

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

The pros and cons of licensing have been discussed, but some of the practical details haven't been addressed. In most states, agents cannot operate independent of a broker. A newly licensed agent will cost their broker time, money, and resources. Agents are an expense, so brokers are paid on every transaction that their agents do (technically it's their money and they're paying you). If you are not bringing in business, they will most likely charge you a monthly fee to cover their overhead. If all you want to do is keep your license active, there are brokerage companies that will let you operate under them with minimal supervision and fees.

States require a pre-licensing course, which is offered at community colleges, private RE schools, brokerage firms, and local Realtor chapters. The class is focused on teaching RE law, general principles, and passing the state exam. You will NOT learn how to build a RE business, investing, or real world skills like using the MLS. If you want to be an active agent, taking the class at a brokerage house is a good choice because you'll start developing the relationships you'll need to succeed and they will invest the time to teach you the business. If you're only going to buy and sell on your own account, the local Realtor association is a good place to take the class, since you will need more training which will likely come from them if you don't have a close relationship with a broker.

Real estate agent and Realtor are not synonymous The latter denotes members of the trade association, and not all licensees choose to join. There are dues, but membership is necessary in order to have access to the MLS. There will also be fees associated with maintaining Supra lockbox access. The total cost varies, but it'll probably be in the neighborhood of ~$1000/ yr.

Real estate agents are held to a higher standard of conduct than nonprofessionals. In addition to disclosures, there are regulations they have to abide by and restrictions on their activities that others aren't subject to. Additional scrutiny is unavoidable because of the ability for anyone (even anonymously) to lodge a complaint with the state's regulating department, and the allegation will be investigated. Licensed individuals are subject to administrative, civil and criminal sanctions.

Only you can decide what's right for your business, I'm just adding more food for thought.

Post: East Chicago, Indiana

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

Like moths to a flame, the appeal of cheap houses is almost irresistible...

Indiana is definitely more landlord friendly than the city of Chicago, which has a very strong landlord-tenant ordinance, which can be found here: http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/dcd/sup...

Northwest Indiana- East Chicago, Gary, Hammond, et al. has lots of cheap houses. Since the decline of the steel industry, there's been a lot of disinvestment, migration out of the area, and vacant housing stock that may never be filled. Think Detroit- there's opportunity for those that know what they're doing, the rest of us best stay out. Indiana outside of what could be considered the greater Chicagoland area, is a different animal, and I'm not familiar with the rest of the state.

There are also lots of cheap houses in the southern suburbs of Chicago. Rents are significantly higher (low end starts ~$1100) than in Indiana (low end ~$750). Property taxes are also higher. It is possible to have a house with an annual tax bill equal to 20% of the purchase price. There are many sub $30,000 houses with $4,000 tax bills. It can be appealed, but its still going to be outrageously high. Suburban municipalities can be little fiefdoms, some being antagonistic to landlords, others heavy handed on code enforcement, needless regulations, or fees. Within Chicago city limits, unless egregious, you'll be left alone. Taxes are more reasonable. But the houses aren't as cheap, the neighborhoods aren't as stable, and the housing stock is both older and more run down. Describing all the neighborhoods is beyond the scope of this post, but I'll comment on the three you named specifically.

Calumet Heights includes an area called Pill Hill, due to its history with African American physicians. Its an old, stable neighborhood, mostly detached brick bungalows. There aren't many houses for sale under $75k. There aren't a lot of rentals and its a very desirable area, a 3 BR will rent for ~1400. As a landlord, its hard to go wrong here, the tenants will be solid middle class folks.

Parts of Bronzeville are up and coming and parts are already fully gentrified. Any deals that come to market will be scooped up very quickly, and the area is a favorite for rehabbers. There are historic mansions, and during the boom, new construction. The area is the most diverse racially and socioeconomically of the bunch. Its also the best for appreciation, thus most forgiving of out of town investor mistakes.

South Shore is a mixed bag: houses, condos, and apartment complexes. Probably the area with the lowest % home ownership of the bunch. Forget about the Chicago bungalow, here there will be 75+ year old frame houses. Because of the heterogeneity, this area requires the most expertise, choose poorly and tenant retention will be difficult for many years (if not forever).

Entire neighborhoods have been abandoned by banks, effectively eliminating the retail market, leaving only investors. Some neighborhoods have essentially become rental communities. Ali Boon wrote a blog about her experience as a landlord in an over saturated market: 

http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2015/01/19...

I have properties in Atlanta and Chicago and concur with her assessment. With so many choices available to renters, its not sufficient to have a nice house in a decent neighborhood. Its crucial to know where your target audience wants to live.

I'm a landlord that caters to working class tenants, actively acquiring cheap REO houses. The yields are attractive, but frequently elude out of state investors because the niche requires a skill set that most property management companies are not competent at. As a result, tenant turnover, repair expenses, and collection problems chip away at profit margins. Working class tenants do not think or act like middle class tenants. If this is unfamiliar to you, than it will require an investment of time (measured in years) and money (measured in thousands) to learn how to landlord effectively to this group. The learning curve may be less painful if you find an area closer to where you live. There are 2,000 miles between California and Illinois. Aren't there places that have decent cap rates that are less far away?

Post: Any interest in Conference Calls?

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

Sounds good. Set it up.

Post: Best deal on postcards

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

I ordered 5000 postcards for $130 from Iris Print. Good quality and fast delivery. For those of  us who are not graphic artists, they also offer free design service.

http://irisprint.net/store/printed-stationery/8-posdcards.html

Post: Any helpful hints for Property Tax Appeals?

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

I have successfully appealed taxes in Fulton county. In preparation, I listed the properties for sale at a price 10% below the assessor's total value. Since this was significantly above fair market value, there were no offers. I submitted this information, along with half a dozen comps (recent sales) prepared by an appraiser. 

Post: Renting mobile homes?

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

You're a young guy just starting out, with not much cash or assets. Don't worry about Dodd Frank, your biggest hurdle is getting started. If you think that a Lonnie Deal is the most accessible method for you right now, then do it. Structure the deal so the numbers work (with MHs you should recoup your investment in no more than 2 years). Don't take advantage of anyone, make the deal a win-win for all parties involved. The Attorney General is not going to send a SWAT team to your door because you violated RESPA/SAFE/TILA/HMDA/EOCA/FCRA/GLBA or any other consumer lending act that I've failed to mention.

One of the advantages that MH deals have over most RE deals is the yields are very high. This makes attracting money easier for those who don't have a track record and connections. Lets say you use $7500 of your own money to do a Lonnie Deal that has a 65% yield. Then you can tell your aunt or your boss or some other acquaintance about your deal and ask them if they'd like to buy a piece of it and earn 18% (they should find that very attractive). So now you've recouped your original investment and you've got a deal under your belt. Repeat the process again. You're building negotiation skills, expanding your network, learning how to find and structure deals. 

I'm not suggesting building a RE empire using the techniques in Deal on Wheels, consumer lending is a highly regulated industry. What I am saying is don't be overly concerned about the rules of a game your not even playing. Once you're an active RE investor, you can modify your strategy. Many times in life, imperfect action is better than inaction. Don't worry about crossing the i or dotting the t, just do the best you can, and get started.

Post: How do you feel about economically depressed/stagnant regions?

John LowePosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 33
  • Votes 58

I don't know anything about Dalles, OR but I'm intimately familiar with the decaying towns left behind as the steel industry in the US went from world dominance to bankruptcy...

With no population growth, no income growth, no job growth, RE appreciation doesn't factor in. In these areas, the only RE play is cash flow. Develop a business model that caters to a specific niche that you know well (ie. hospital workers, traveling pilots, students, folks in recovery, tourists, ex cons). Whatever you pick, make sure that you will be able to meet their needs better than anybody else. A competitive advantage is essential in a market where your potential customers are few.

If you're going to do rentals for low socioeconomic tenants, keep in mind that it is a very hands on type of landlording. Turnover, repair, and collections will be higher than typical. Forget about the 2% rule (rent / purchase price) in areas where no RE appreciation is expected. To compensate for the risk and increased expenses, you want 3-4%. So a $30,000 house should rent for $900-1200/mo. 

The investors who are successful in these type of areas tend to have a blue collar approach to things. Or they partner with someone who does and quickly grow the business large enough to support it.