All Forum Posts by: Jay Coolidge

Quote from @Remington Lyman:

Quote from @Jay Coolidge:

I bought my first flip home.  The home was built in 1920's.  I am currently in the initial stages of cleaning the property and getting quotes on the work that is needed.  Plan on putting in new HVAC, flooring, windows and redoing the bathrooms and kitchens.  One "behind the walls" improvement needed is wiring.  There is some knob and tube on the property.  The breaker box was updated in 2017 to 100 amp and all the wiring the kitchen was updated but because the knob and tube wiring to the rest of the house was left in the walls with updated wiring in the basement to the breaker box and all "new" from the breaker box to the knob and tube wires seems to be connected with a junction boxes.  I am not an electrician but getting a crash course in all this.

I've had 2 very different electrical quotes and plan to get more.  What was originally a smaller project could be much larger.  So here's my question, for those of you doing flips have you kept the existing knob and tube wiring in houses or do you generally rip it out and upgrade to new wiring?  

I was not planning on doing a full rewire. This will be a budget killer, but from what I read knob and tube can be safe under certain conditions and it also can be dangerous.  Since this is a flip and the house has not been regularly maintained for years I wonder how well the original wiring is holding up.  So that's my dilemma, let me know what you think- thank you!

 Most flips I see do not do a full rewire unless they are taking the property down to the studs.

Does not mean that is the "right" thing to do but is probably the most economical thing to do

Quote from @Jim K.:

@Jay Coolidge

If you follow half of these suggestions, you're going to end up so far in the hole financially you'll never get out on this flip. Your plan to put in new HVAC. If it's more than just replacing a furnace, that looks like your biggest-ticket item overall. My suggestion on this property is that you not add to your problems if you can avoid it.

Now I'm going to teach you something about your house. Ready? This is not a "Craftsman-style house." This was called a Foursquare back in the day. Read up on Foursquares and see if I'm wrong.

Your wrote of the outlets that: "...about 5-6 come up as "open ground" - none come up as "open ground..." well, which is it? Easy trick to relax over this: replace questionable open grounds with GFCI outlets. Nobody will get hurt that way.

It's common practice here in Pittsburgh to rewire the basement and not touch any of the knob and tube in the walls on the higher floors except in extensive kitchen and bath remodels, where you would run dedicated wiring. That's what's been done here in the basement and kitchen already, apparently. Incidentally, if this place was really built in 1920 it has later-type cloth insulation on the K-and-T wires that holds up better than early-type rubber insulation.

The 100-amp panel went in circa 2017. Don't change it. Would putting in a 150/200 make the house more useful? Sure. Will most buyers looking at something like this care? No. This house will probably sell under $200K, right? You're looking at a first-time buyer pool that knows or cares squat about electrical service.

Get it done as cheaply as possible. Will it be good? No. But God's honest truth is that the only way to make a flipped house from 1920 bulletproof is to lose money on the flip. It's a dirty business when you get into this kind of lower-end, hundred-year-old property flip, and this is why.

Quote from @Account Closed:

Quote from @Jay Coolidge:

That's a hard one to answer. Plaster breaks in unanticipated ways, so it could be a real mess.

My approach would be to use a plugin sawsall (more power than battery) and cut sections out as needed unless it's a water wall in a bathroom or kitchen. I remove the whole wall in those situations. It's just plain easier to update wire and plumbing. Plaster dulls blades pretty quickly, so have several on hand.

The following is only one approach, others will do things differently.

I start with running one new wire to the living room where I can wire an outlet, a switch and a light. I want to have light for the next step and I want to have an outlet and extension cord for the sawsall.

Then I disconnect all wires except the new one I just ran, at the box, so no old lines are hot. Following (NEC®), NFPA 70B wiring code, I mark my cuts on the walls for outlets and switches in the living room. You never know for sure how far apart someone put a stud until you cut, but a good stud finder will help. Some living rooms need 3 way switches for the light and an additional switch for a fan and a switch for the front porch and so on.

Here is a sample of things to know
https://www.thespruce.com/common-electrical-codes-by-room-1152276

So, my approach is to diagram the entire house for electrical, room by room, outlet by outlet, switch by switch, light by light, drawing lines from the box so I know where my line will run and to make sure I have enough amps (200 is best) and don't overload a circuit, and have enough circuit openings to do the job.

I agree that if you pull the wire, correctly, you can save a ton of money. But, it has to pass inspection, so spend a lot of time on youtube.

Connecting each outlet and switch and so on, correctly, might take a qualified electrician. I needed a permit for my recent rewire job.

Thanks again for your reply and the visuals are very helpful.  Much appreciated from this greenhorn :).  

Quote from @Account Closed:

Quote from @Jay Coolidge:

I bought my first flip home.  The home was built in 1920's.  I am currently in the initial stages of cleaning the property and getting quotes on the work that is needed.  Plan on putting in new HVAC, flooring, windows and redoing the bathrooms and kitchens.  One "behind the walls" improvement needed is wiring.  There is some knob and tube on the property.  

I've done a lot of replacement of knob & tube. I even found one property was still aluminum wires. I don't like any of it. Loads are too high these days, rats chew the casing, over time as mentioned the casing gets brittle, too much distance from plug-in to plug-in, outlets are old and brittle, improperly grounded and look dated and I guarantee you, someone along the way, wrongly tied into the line or wired improperly or connections loosened. All are fire hazards.

Well, you should really upgrade to 200 amp, follow code and run separate lines to quadrants of the house so that if a circuit blows, you still get light from a different room, so you can make your way to the box to reset things. HVAC, Dryer, Water Heater, Oven, Smoke Alarm system, things like that get their own lines.

In a 1920s, if you are redoing the bathrooms and kitchen, for sure remove the whole water wall. Then it's easier to work on, goes faster and looks like a better product when the sheet rock goes back up. Replace the pipes, (probably rusted galvanized), valves, handles, hoses, faucets, and drains. There will be mold behind the wall, so it gives you a chance to clean that up as well.

Trying to repair lath and plaster and make it match after cutting into the wall is very difficult and time consuming. You should be able to run the new wires in the attic the same way as the existing. That part isn't too hard. Running from attic to switch, cut a small hole near the switch and a small hole in the ceiling and use a rod to run the wire betweent them. To run from plug-in to plug-in, remove the base board and cut your horizonal holes to run your lines.

Old

Quote from @Richard F.:
Aloha,

The wiring itself is not the only problem...with all of today's modern conveniences, the number and location of outlets, as well as available capacity, are very important. Too many times I have seen the most confounding electrical issues end up being due to some handy person's "repair", crossing the neutral over on a switched line when connecting to K&T, or worse. You are on the right track, rip the plaster and lath down to the bare studs, let the plumbers and sparkies do their thing, then go back and install new sheetrock. Of course, you might well uncover other "improvements" made over the years that may need re-working also...cut joists or columns, termite or wood rot damage, etc.