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All Forum Posts by: James Dale

James Dale has started 2 posts and replied 16 times.

Quote from @Jamie Jones:
Quote from @James Dale:
Quote from @Jamie Jones:

Hi @James Dale, it's definitely possible to get a conventional loan on an investment property and I do them all the time. In this current market, the rate is going to be pretty brutal unless you have 25% down. The key difference between this and a DSCR is that the underwriters are looking at your financials (FICO, DTI, etc.) more so than than the property financials. That being said, we can use 75% of the projected gross rental income to help offset the new PITI payment when underwriting the loan.


Thank you for response. After everyone's response here I see there isn't much benefit to using a conventional over a DSCR right now. I assume I just read somewhere that someone used conventional before DSCR and it stuck with me. Thank you again for your information.


 what is your down payment on this deal?

15% of 110k, 25 years. 9.5% Interest
Quote from @Jamie Jones:

Hi @James Dale, it's definitely possible to get a conventional loan on an investment property and I do them all the time. In this current market, the rate is going to be pretty brutal unless you have 25% down. The key difference between this and a DSCR is that the underwriters are looking at your financials (FICO, DTI, etc.) more so than than the property financials. That being said, we can use 75% of the projected gross rental income to help offset the new PITI payment when underwriting the loan.


Thank you for response. After everyone's response here I see there isn't much benefit to using a conventional over a DSCR right now. I assume I just read somewhere that someone used conventional before DSCR and it stuck with me. Thank you again for your information.

Quote from @Robin Simon:
Quote from @James Dale:

Hello everyone,

I am about to close on my first property! We are very excited but I do have some questions for my next purchase. My lender ran this loan as a DSCR and my rate came back at 9.5! I was under the impression I could use a conventional loan with a lower rate on an investment property but the lender states that loans like this are hard to get since they are not your primary residence. I swear I've read about many of you using conventional loans to a certain point and then switching to DSCR due to limitations. Am I wrong? Any information you guys have for me is greatly appreciated!

Thank you


I would shop around a bit regarding DSCR - its certainly possible the best rate you qualify for is 9.5% (Rates have unfortunately ticked up recently), however theres a good chance you can find better.

I'd recommend checking out BiggerPockets Find A Lender program https://www.biggerpockets.com/business/finder/lenders

and the featured Mortgage Lenders page https://www.biggerpockets.com/loans

Thank you for these links! I could only find the agent locator prior to this.
Quote from @Mason Weiss:

Hey James, I would contact a lender in your market through BP and get a second opinion. There are many factors in qualifying for these loans and you should seek out multiple opinions if you are not content with your initial contact. 

I will look into this. Thank you for your prompt response.

Hello everyone,

I am about to close on my first property! We are very excited but I do have some questions for my next purchase. My lender ran this loan as a DSCR and my rate came back at 9.5! I was under the impression I could use a conventional loan with a lower rate on an investment property but the lender states that loans like this are hard to get since they are not your primary residence. I swear I've read about many of you using conventional loans to a certain point and then switching to DSCR due to limitations. Am I wrong? Any information you guys have for me is greatly appreciated!

Thank you

Post: So many options, which is the right one?

James DalePosted
  • Posts 16
  • Votes 6
Quote from @Brian M. Adams:
Quote from @James Dale:
Quote from @Brian M. Adams:

JMHO, but I have been looking at properties in NW AR as well as Little Rock (and everywhere in between) and if I were you I would lean towards LR as you can get a much nicer property for a much lower price. Unfortunately, with all of the growth in NW AR, the property prices have grown as well.


 You are not joking! I looked around in the Fayetteville area and it almost out of the question for me right now financially even with my 100k. I've not looked at all in LR as I have a relatively negative opinion of the area but it sounds like I'm going to have to get over that and do some digging. 

Thank you for the information.

I hear you. I wouldn't really want to live in LR either. However, keep in mind that your not looking for a place for you (unless you plan on house hacking) and to keep you business opinions and personal ones separate as much as possible. Obviously, if you are going to do all of the PM yourself you don't want properties in an area you won't feel safe in, but beyond that it's less about your opinion of the area and more of is there a market that has numbers that work.

 I totally agree and I will be getting a PM anywhere I go with as my W2 job has me travelling on the road. I'm def not opposed to looking in LR. Thank you for the heads up.

Post: So many options, which is the right one?

James DalePosted
  • Posts 16
  • Votes 6
Quote from @Dave E.:

@James Dale if you use the heloc for the down payment you are financing 100% of the deal. That makes it really hard for the numbers to work out. Also some banks won’t let you use a heloc like that.

Heloc is not good for a long term investment. Look at and understand the interest rates and payment terms for the heloc. Then look at and understand the interest rates and payment terms for a traditional mortgage. Big difference.


Yes, I can understand the way a traditional is way more favorable. In my certain situation it was out of the question since I had already refi'd my residence to a 15 year note and received a 2.8 interest rate. I saved 105k in interest alone when I did this. I'm trying to find the most viable option in which to use my HELOC to work for me. I'm open to all options and that's why I put this post up to figure out which route I should go. I really do appreciate your information it brings to light how carefully I need to be when analyzing what deals I can find. What route would you recommend if you don't mind me asking?

Post: So many options, which is the right one?

James DalePosted
  • Posts 16
  • Votes 6
Quote from @Dave E.:

@James Dale heloc has a lot of uses in REI, but buy and hold is rarely one of them. A heloc may work for some of the repairs, but you will get way better terms from a traditional mortgage with 20% down than you will from a heloc for a long term hold.


Please elaborate sir. Do you think that using the HELOC as a down payment on 3 turnkey duplex's (I've already found them) as opposed to buying one duplex out right at a good price? Acquiring traditions mortgages on the 3? Thank you for any advice you can offer

Post: So many options, which is the right one?

James DalePosted
  • Posts 16
  • Votes 6
Quote from @Brian M. Adams:

JMHO, but I have been looking at properties in NW AR as well as Little Rock (and everywhere in between) and if I were you I would lean towards LR as you can get a much nicer property for a much lower price. Unfortunately, with all of the growth in NW AR, the property prices have grown as well.


 You are not joking! I looked around in the Fayetteville area and it almost out of the question for me right now financially even with my 100k. I've not looked at all in LR as I have a relatively negative opinion of the area but it sounds like I'm going to have to get over that and do some digging. 

Thank you for the information.

Post: So many options, which is the right one?

James DalePosted
  • Posts 16
  • Votes 6
Quote from @Jim K.:

@James Dale

Jim, I'm adding my voice to the chorus here.

Here's the main thing driving my advice: you're new and green. I would most definitely not get into significant renovation on your first investment buy. Play it safe, play it smart, minimize your beginning risk. There's so much to learn, especially about tenant management, that getting into renovations now beyond a cleanout, basic painting, and cosmetic repairs just adds too much risk. As far as getting into BRRRR goes, sad to say, there's more baloney floating around about profitable BRRRRing than any other real estate strategy out there. The truth is that BRRRR is not at all typically an entry-level winning real estate strategy.

Here's my perspective on calculating ARV: @Johann Villalvir here in the thread is, surprisingly, pretty spot on as a new poster (welcome Johann). But you also need to know that the whole "science of appraisal" is becoming more and more guesswork and the profession becoming ever more desperately in need of reform as the years go by. You can't trust that you'll get a good appraisal, not at all, not in the slightest.

I can talk about duplexes for days, and how to bring up their value. If you can find the right duplex and move into it while you rent out the other apartment, it's a great strategic move. But the key thing to understand is that a duplex, triplex, and quadplex's values are calculated by lenders much like a single-family, based on square-footage estimates, numbers of beds and baths, and prices in the neighborhood. That's not really what the place is worth to a buy-and-hold rental investor, however. What I do is pretty simple. I look at a duplex and figure out what I could reasonably charge for rent for both apartments if I renovated them. Multiply that by 100, and that's what I can afford to pay to buy and renovate the duplex. This is often called the 1% rule, and it works fine here in my area.

Not sure how well it will work in yours, but it's worth knowing about as a benchmark for buying single-family and anything up to a quadplex. After a quadplex, you have to get into commercial lending, and the rules/requirements are quite different.

@Dave E and @Nathan Gesner have both sounded the right alarm about leverage. You cannot afford to lose this money. An easy baseball analogy here is that you're looking for a single, and you'll settle for a bunt. This is not the time to go after every pitch swinging from the heels.

Whatever you do, don't look at the very cheapest properties on offer in your area in the very worst neighborhoods and start calculating how much money you could theoretically make on them. No beginner has ever made a dollar on properties like that in the history of real estate investing.

I know our approach seems painfully slow, but the people selling you fast-fast-fast money in real estate, especially on a first deal, are typically dishonest get-rich-quick schemers. Play the probabilities. Prepare for the long slog ahead.

One last thing, what I'm advocating is exactly what my wife and I did on our first rental buy. And we live in a duplex today. It worked for us, and it has a good chance of working for you. Good luck to you!


 Hey Jim! 

I've actually read some of your comments in other posts as I am an avid lurker. I respect your opinion and advice and I appreciate you taking the time to give me your valued input. All these responses are really pushing me away from BRRRR on my first couple of properties until I can get some experience as well as actually be on site.

Thank you again for the information.