All Forum Posts by: Jackie Dean

In my experience, many Section 8 renters feel entitled and become very demanding. There are some ordinary tenants like this, but Section 8 seems to be more common.

You have to learn to stand up to tenants rather than taking their abuse. It's animalistic behavior; they see your weakness and start to attack, which makes you shy away even more, which makes them attack more.

Force her to keep communication in writing. That can provide you the buffer you need to avoid getting emotionally involved.You can respond with short, professional communication and a reminder that you won't put up with her abuse.

Talk to a lawyer. Understand your rights. Know what you can & cant do legally, and stay on the right side of that line.

Dont worry about being sued, everyone gets sued. Make sure you can defend yourself & win.

Your lawyer should explain how to best prepare for that.

Good luck!

Talk to her case worker.  you said he doesn't always respond-make sure the message stresses the urgency of this and what happened.  Have a list ready of all the repairs you've had to do and remind him that you lived there for many years with no problems and the place is less than 20 years old.  Tell him, she needs to find new accommodation as you are not comfortable going there as she is belligerent.   If they won't let you get out of the lease, then when the lease is up tell them you are not renewing it.  Your tenant won't want to get on the bad side of section 8.  I'd also get contact info for her son as she seems to be reasonable and perhaps he can get the contact person.

@Jackie Dean Let me add 2points to consider. Things will be so much better when this tenant is gone. Trying to figure out a way to get there legally and fairly but soon if possible...once you do and find a new tenant, I bet you will be surprised how much easier it all is. Second point is to keep and provide written documentation along the way. That will help you. I've had terrible tenants (not too many thankfully!) and have always been amazed once they're gone, how much better things are and the realization that no its not the property after all.

Does your plumber believe it is them causing the issues? If so then you can use that invoice and charge them for it. Unfortunately it is hard to keep your feelings out of it, keep your game face on and tell them how it is. With section 8 you can contact the housing authority and let them know how she is talking to you. 

Here is something to consider. Section 8 tenants are not putting down a deposit. I don’t think they are anyway. However, the next time she give you trouble simply tell her, “ your repairs are being billed to your tenant account in the event you do not pay I will backcharge section 8 for the full amount. When you leave this place which you will be upon the termination of your lease that amount will need paid to section 8 before they let you into your next free or $34 month place. 

NOW write up a memo and send it registered mail outlining what the potential costs of clogged toilets and plumbing repairs. Drains do not just clog. By there nature they take turds fine. Use industry averages for cost estimates of the price of repairs you'll make on her behalf. Be clear they will be billed to her and HUD.

If a tenant does damage to a property document it. They can not get a new place until it’s paid. 

A question and a thought - is tenant on a lease? If only month-to-month, give her a notice to vacate and find a different tenant, assuming it's allowed. 

@Jackie Dean don't worry about losing your property over some low-life gone crazy tenant. That does not happen. And it not being in an LLC means squat. I have properties in my name and in LLC's. Take out a liability insurance policy-cost is minimal and it will give you peace of mind. At this point ignore her as best you can..........she is trying to train you-train her instead. You could document her behavior in an email to the section 8 case worker, and copy the tenant. The case worker will be working even if the office is closed.

Low life people with no social graces are always hard for us civilized folk to deal with. Fortunately she is Section 8 and not writing any rent checks. Keep that in mind. All the best! 

@Jackie Dean

It's not particularly difficult to do a county and state record search in Allegheny County, where Pittsburgh is. I just spent some time tinkering on the computer and local legal forums.

It's not always a bad thing to show you're angry to a tenant, most especially when they're being obnoxious, or are obviously in the wrong, or have lied to you in some way. One of my rules, for instance, is never to let a tenant get away with a lie that can be proven to be a lie. Let me explain: in my personal understanding of the world, men don't lie. Even the hint of a lie is an embarrassment that can barely be borne. Nobody needs to beat me over the head with my lies for me to regret them. I still cringe at the memory of stupid little lies I told as a child.

But for quite a few of the people you're going to be dealing with down in C/D class, lying is their default position in life, lying is how they raise their kids, lying is all they know and all they'll ever know. There are no truthtellers and liars, there are just bad liars and good liars, and good liars deserve more respect than bad liars. Call it what you will, prison mentality, slum mentality, the law of the jungle.

You have to call these people out when you find them. You can't simply hint at their lies or be coy in any way about it. You have to expose your understanding of their lie in full, make them acknowledge it, make them grovel in shame. Otherwise they'll walk away from any discussion with you about it and pat themselves on the back for being so clever as to get away with a lie. And understand, these people are going to call you certifiably paranoid and crazy suspicious when you first mention any suspicion whatever. These are not particularly bad things to be considered down in C/D class -- these people's drug dealers certainly know that well. It's certainly better in their eyes to be seen as a paranoid than it is to be seen as gullible and trusting.

I think you're right, when your feet are firmly on the ground in tenant law, you'll really be able to have these discussions more easily.

 Then this is a situation of extremes, Jackie. The house was built in 2004. There's no way these sorts of things should be happening after 16 years of owner-occupancy, however negligent the tenant may argue that you were on regular maintenance when you lived there. I own hundred-year-old properties that are far more resilient. Toilets don't die in 16 years, unless you had a new sort of low-usage one with a bad siphoning system -- lots of those were installed back in 2004. Garbage disposals, OK, sure, but that's why a lot of LLs take the disposals out of rentals and the ones that don't are handymen and carry around tools to free them up them in our regular maintenance toolboxes.

Kitchen faucets? No. But some of the single-handed designs are pretty fragile. So let's say the physical condition of the house doesn't warrant this kind of nit-picking from a Section 8 tenant. What else could you have done in the vetting of this tenant?

Jackie, I would have hit social media and local public records in addition to a background check, I always do. Never trust what the l current landlord says (I know you called a previous LL as well, so this is not a criticism, just pointing this out for others). But you can learn an extraordinary amount about people and who they're close to from social media these days. There's almost always one idiot in the family who can't be bothered with FB privacy settings, for instance. You might have lowered the probability that you would get what you have. I can't think of anything else beyond what you've done.

What do you do now? There's nothing to do but wait out the lease. At least she isn't doing anything to damage your home, and knowing that she's on Section 8, she won't easily do so and thereby give up her seat on the gravy train. The abusive screaming has to stop. Learning how to stop it is one of the skills you're going to need for landlording. When that woman speaks to you in that manner, there has to be a knowledge and a promise in your eyes and in your bearing as you respond that tells her she's going to eventually regret it. You will need to develop that look if to doesn't come naturally. I'm glad you're here on BiggerPockets, watch the forums and look for common answers to these questions.

You have a study project now. Read up on every scrap of landlord-tenant law in your area that you can. Spend money to consult with lawyers. Think of it as your tuition. Find out exactly what's within the scope of the law and what isn't when dealing with this woman. This will also help your confidence when you deal with this woman.

Lastly, again and again, as much as you can, try to put yourself into this woman's shoes. Try to understand how she thinks. I'm not saying everything that she does is pardonable, or that you should even forgive any of it. But look past the reasons why you feel the way you do and why she might feel the way she does to understand the mindset. A significant majority of landlords who do well down here in C/D class have been in their tenants' shoes at some point growing up. I don't know if you have. if you haven't, it's going to take work to learn how to step into her shoes.