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All Forum Posts by: Immanuel Sibero

Immanuel Sibero has started 1 posts and replied 407 times.

Post: Cap Rates and Interest Rates/ What the *%%€*+??

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

Interest rates and asset valuations are generally inversely related, this is in the Fed's playbook, no?

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Evaluating Cap Rates

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

It shouldn't be this complicated.

- I would not use seller or broker stated cap rates ever.

- It's certainly not done with an appraisal or CMA of a future value, it's hard enough to do an appraisal or CMA of a current value.

- I see that you already determined an entry cap rate (going-in cap rate). There is good argument to say that exit cap rate is a function of entry cap rate.

- Cap rate is more of a measure of market sentiment (bullish or bearish) in a particular geographical location. If the market (buyers and sellers) is bullish then cap rate will trend down in that area and vice versa. So if, for example, you purchase a property at 6% cap rate today then that's a good starting point. if you then plan to sell in 5 years and wonder what "exit cap rate" you should use, you should get a feel of what the market sentiment will be in 5 years. The area may be up and coming where market cap rate is projected to compress to 5%. You can then set your exit cap rate to 5%. But then again you may think that you should be conservative and set it back to 6%.

- Many syndicators choose to be conservative by estimating exit cap rate to be entry cap rate + some basis points. For example, if your entry cap rate is 6% you would estimate exit cap rate to be 6% + .5% (i.e. 50 basis points) which equals to 6.5%.

- Cap rate tends to track with interest rate and we all know what has been happening lately with interest rates. If there is ever a good time to set your exit cap rate higher than your entry cap rate it would be now.

Hope this helps.

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Calculations on ROI

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

COC is NET CASH for the year over NET CASH at purchase. If it's cash it's included.

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Basic property analysis

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371
Quote from @James Ross:

@Immanuel Sibero

Thanks Immanuel! I was looking at rental comps to determine what the property is likely to rent for, but didn't look at overall sales price comps as a guiding metric for offer price. The goal I'm working towards is determining what purchase price makes a property a good deal.

Recent sales "comps" are about the only metric for single family home valuation. As matter of fact, 1-4 unit residential properties are generally valued using comps. Your goal is correct, you want to purchase at a price which would make the property a good deal. This is the holy grail in any real estate investments. If you're investing in apartments then yes cap rate valuation is standard procedure. However, in residential properties you're also contending with another class of buyers who are not investors and makes purchasing decision based on personal taste, emotions, etc. So cap rate valuation is irrelevant in residential properties.

I'm still a newbie, of course, so I'm not claiming any expertise. My impression so far has been that determining what makes a property a good deal is less what others are asking for the property and more what the numbers show that you should buy it at. Price comps are of course very important in determining if someone is likely to sell at a price that makes the property a good deal, but the comps don't determine what will make the property cash flow.

I would actually go a step further and say that the numbers are absolutely 100% the only guiding principle in determining whether to invest or not. Again, this is the holy grail of RE investments. What I'm pointing out is that holy grail principle may not work well in residential properties. Generally, if you value single family homes using cap rate valuation you will be priced out in most markets.

How do you arrive at an initial offer on a single family home, one that will make the property a good deal? I got my understanding of cap rate from the ABCs of Real Estate, which is apartment focuses, but it made sense to me that it could apply to single family homes too, at least to me. However I'd love to hear a better way to go about it. I'm here to learn. :)

A lot of the concept in apartment investing is applicable to single family homes, after all they all do the same thing -  providing shelter in exchange for rent. But there is one distinct difference between the two that's central to this discussion and I've mentioned it above - the pool of buyers. Only investors buy apartments and they all use the same calculation whereas investors and owner-occupants compete to buy single family homes. Owner-occupants use every method except cap rate when determining price. These prices become "comps" and override cap rate prices.

So your question - How do you arrive at an initial offer on a single family home, one that will make the property a good deal?

- Find a market where comps valuation is not so far apart from YOUR valuation.

- In a market where comps valuation is obscenely higher than YOUR valuation, you might make the numbers work by finding under market (discounted) properties - distressed properties, distressed owner, properties in disrepair.

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Basic property analysis

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@James Ross

For an analysis that is aimed more at single family homes, there sure is a lot of coverage of Cap Rate.

- Cap rate is a metric commonly used in commercial real estate (not residential like single family homes)

- Cap rate is more of a valuation/risk metric, not a performance metric. Since cap rate is not a performance metric, it does not tell you how good of an investment a particular property is. Also there is no such thing as a good cap rate, or an acceptable cap rate,  or a minimum cap rate, etc for a particular market. So cap rate is just a poor metric to use to measure performance.

- Cap rate is more of a measure of investor sentiment in a particular market for a particular class of commercial properties that drives valuation whether up or down. The more desirable a particular market is to investors, the more investors bid up the price/value and the lower the cap rate is for that commercial property market. Has virtually no impact on values of single family homes in the same area (see below point for what drives single family home valuation).

- Cap rate is not commonly used to calculate an offer price for a single family house. Recent sales of comparable houses are used instead (commonly referred to as "comps"). Are you not using "comps" at all in your analysis?  Comps analysis is a crucial element in analyzing single family home investments. I don't see it mentioned at all in your analysis.

Cheers... Immanuel

@Andrew Michaud

I would be interested in performance metrics such as Cash on Cash, Annual Cashflow, IRR, even the good old 1%/2%. With current such current technology as Google sheet, Excel, these metrics are easy to build and calculate.

Cap Rate (i.e. capitalization rate) is a valuation metric, not a performance metric as such it is a terrible metric to use to determine which property performs better/best. Also, cap rate is determined by the market. It is a measure of how investors view the desirability (or lack thereof) of a particular property in a particular market. It is more of a measure of investor sentiment (i.e. bullish/bearish) of a certain market. Cap rate is even less relevant when evaluating residential properties such as single family homes, duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes. It is a metric used in the commercial space.

So what's a good cap rate? Well there really is no such thing.

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: How do you Cap rate?

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

You can use the name itself as a guide to determine whether or not to include a particular cash inflow/outflow item. The O in NOI is short for "Operating" so we can, in theory, say that any cash inflow/outflow items necessary to the proper day-to-day "operation" of the property should be included in NOI. As Michael pointed out above, a mortgage should NOT be included. It shouldn't be included because a mortgage is not necessary to properly operate a property. Another example would be capital expenditures which can usually be delayed without hindering the proper operation of a property.

On the other hand, expenses such as repairs/maintenance, insurance, property taxes, salary, etc. are very necessary to the operate the property and therefore are very much part of Net "Operating" Income.

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Methods to Determine Value of Commercial Property

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371
Quote from @Lucas Martinez:

@Immanuel Sibero

Right that logic is flawed as well.

By adding a 1 in front of the cap rate you ensure that the result is always going to be higher than the original purchase price. It’s impossible to have it go down since you’re automatically saying it’s >1.

The proper way to evaluate properties using cap rate is to calculate the cap rate of similar sales and come up with an average cap rate (assuming you have good comps for the asset class). You then take that average cap rate and see if the subject property is above or below that cap rate using the NOI and list price. If it's above the cap rate, it would suggest that it's a good deal (although there are always lots of factors to consider, not just cap rate). If it's below, it would suggest that it's overpriced. It's pretty straightforward.

@Mike Davis

Lucas, agree 100%. Many don't realize that determining value for commercial properties is in theory much the same as determining value for single family houses... you use comparisons to recently closed sales of similar properties (with commercial properties you compare the cap rates, as you pointed out).

As you also pointed out, as straightforward as Cap Rate is there's a lot of confusion, misconception, misunderstanding surrounding Cap Rate. I'm quizzing the OP because he's putting all this on a blog... flaws and all... but the OP appears to have left the building :-) Thanks for jumping in.

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Methods to Determine Value of Commercial Property

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371
Quote from @Lucas Martinez:

@Immanuel Sibero

Sorry, should have changed who I was replying to!

I meant to address the OP

No Problem.

In addition to the flaw you pointed out, an even bigger flaw is the fact that the OP uses this formula to calculate market value, and I quote:

- Take your average cape rate of 7.2% and convert to a decimal, .072 and add a one to the front of it (1.072), then multiply that by the purchase price of your property, 1.072 x $2,000,000 = $2,144,000.

which is saying:

Estimated Market Value = (1 + Average Market Cap Rate) x Purchase/Asking Price of property

Given that market cap rate is always positive (I have yet to hear about a market with negative market cap rate... ), using this formula the OP will always calculate a market value that's HIGHER than purchase/asking price. In other words, the OP will always think asking price is a good deal because the market value is always higher. I don't get this all, when will the OP ever find a bad deal with this formula?

Do you read this the same way?

Cheers... Immanuel

Post: Methods to Determine Value of Commercial Property

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371
Quote from @Lucas Martinez:

@Immanuel Sibero

You can’t use the hypothetical pricing of the subject property in your analysis. You look at the average cap rate for other closed sales to determine if the asking price on the subject property is in line with the competitive set. If you include the subject property in the analysis you’ll be skewing the numbers based on a property that has not sold on the open market.


 Lucas,

Exactly correct. But I think you should be pointing this out to the OP since he is suggesting this very thing in his methodology. This is what I'm questioning him. Did you read through his methodology? He calculates the cap rate of the listed property and use that cap rate to determine the average market cap rate! As you pointed out, the cap rate of the listed property is hypothetical. Again, did you read his original post? You're preaching to the choir :-)

Cheers... Immanuel