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All Forum Posts by: Ian Fisher

Ian Fisher has started 8 posts and replied 62 times.

Post: America's Top 5 Turnkey Companies!

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

@Charles Worth - exactly why I'm now raising a small fund to do this: over time I realized there was more market opportunity than my own capital can absorb (probably the same reason a lot of people become TK providers), but also that from having sat on that side of the table for a few years, the "traditional" TK model is just not the best way to align incentives (not to mention a whole ton of other benefits from owning a fractional amount of a larger number of properties, scale benefits, better financing terms, etc.).

Post: America's Top 5 Turnkey Companies!

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

@Charles Worth - bingo. My suggestion basically forces TK providers to put their money where their mouth is - that is, ok TK provider, you tell me this is a 10 CAP, perfect - but will you put some or all of your fee at risk on being right? Will I have any recourse to you if it turns out to be a 5 CAP? Or perhaps better yet, if it's really a 10 CAP there's plenty of money to go around, so how about you transparently show me your margin, we agree how much is reasonable to take up front and how much is reasonable to put at risk according to actual performance / IRR over time?

Post: America's Top 5 Turnkey Companies!

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

Thanks @Charles Worth. Reputation is important, but do we really with a straight face think that a newbie investor is going to be equipped to properly evaluate this, especially if it's a new TK company? Ultimately I'd rather have quantitative metrics in a contract that align incentives rather than simply a broader, qualitative reputational risk.

I do agree with your point on scale to some extent - this model probably doesn't work for the guy who wants to buy one SFR. But on the other hand, in my opinion the guy who wants to just buy one SFR shouldn't be doing it remotely anyway, he should either buy in his backyard (in which case he's not investing, he's building his own business) or invest in a fund or REIT to give him exposure to this asset class.

Post: America's Top 5 Turnkey Companies!

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

Thanks @Curt Davis. I understand the debt side of the equation - so perhaps ownership is with the investor and then there's a JV profit sharing agreement between the investor and the on ground partner. (Going forward I'd like to suggest we rename these "remote partner" and "on ground partner" to be more accurate.) No doubt the on ground partner has expenses - so does the remote partner. Those get covered by building a profitable model. It means it requires a decent amount of working capital / investment upfront while the first deals are made, but after a few years should pay out nicely as the on ground partner builds up enough residual cash flow from their profit share of all the deals they've done so far.

I'm not for a moment advocating that people go out and do this by themselves remotely, rather that instead of paying a service provider a big fee upfront and then being left to try to make profit in the long term, remote partners are better served by finding appropriate on ground partners whose incentives are aligned to their own.

Post: America's Top 5 Turnkey Companies!

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

Ladies and gents, as someone who for quite a few years has sat on the "buying" end of TK deals and is moving into the "selling" end of a fund - I've got a few thoughts here:

- at a minimum people need to of course do appropriate due diligence on integrity and client recommendations of a TK provider before jumping in. The number I've seen who for example try to post that an NOI / unleveraged CAP rate is simply calculated by gross rent less property management, insurance and taxes is stunning to me - and I almost believed it myself early in the game, until I saw my first maintenance expenses, vacancies, etc.

- even then, I'd ask some tough questions on any TK provider's model - even a reputable one - regarding when they make their money vs. when you as an investor make yours. Ultimately I abandoned the traditional TK model where your provider makes his money upfront and then you're left to make your money over time - it just isn't aligned and incentivizes even a completely reputable TK provider to "sell" deals to you rather than partnering with you to make money, which is ultimately what you want

- so I would challenge any TK provider to consider a JV partnership model - the on ground provider is putting in the work and the remote partner is putting in the capital. So instead of a fat upfront payment, I'd want my TK provider to take the same risks I am, that is, his work gets him a piece of the equity, not an upfront fee. That way he's eating exactly the same thing you are, and his incentives for the properties to perform aren't just so that he can sell you more of them, they're so that he makes his money (or not) depending on achieving what as an investor you actually care about: IRR. To me it's the height of insanity to expect that you'll be able to maximize your IRR over time as a remote investor with no one on the ground with expertise who's incentivized to maximize this - and don't tell me that's your PM, PMs (perhaps understandably given the business model) are incentivized only by maximizing revenue, nothing to do with controlling cost. This is all why I won't do any more deals where the on ground guy is charging fixed fees - I want him to have skin in the game, ideally putting some small amount of the actual equity into the deal, or at very least having most of his compensation depend on achieving the (long-term) results that I am trying to achieve as an investor

- the next logical extension to this is a fund structure where you as an investor hold fractional ownership in a larger number of homes rather than sole ownership of a smaller number of homes. In this model the "TK provider" just gets renamed as a fund manager and likewise his incentives are generally very closely aligned with yours as an investor

So bottom line for me is I'd only partner, never be a "customer" of a TK provider. I'd be very interested in others' views - is there any argument in favor of the traditional TK model?

Post: Kansas City Turnkey -- $49,997 / $650 Rent

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

thanks @Marco Santarelli - that does help but this is just a pet peeve of mine in general: I think we all know that most people new to this or who use TK providers would get sucked in by an "NOI" which we all know in reality just will never happen. Why even call it "NOI" in that case?

@Jay Hinrichs - I nearly froze to death in Chicago! Love the website you guys are doing. I will be raising a SFR fund shortly and while no doubt there are a lot more regulatory issues, I could imagine it being very useful to prospective TK investors to also see fund / syndication opportunities on the same site?

Post: Kansas City Turnkey -- $49,997 / $650 Rent

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

Do buyers really believe that NOI is simply gross rent less insurance, taxes, management? Who will pay for vacancy, maintenance, long term capex, lease up fees, etc.? These are relevant on any house but even more so on a 1905 build!

Post: Accountant in Houston

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

Hi Sharon, I am in a similar situation to you in that I have a fair bit of investment activity in the US and also live abroad. Does your CPA also handle bookkeeping? I would love to be in touch with her if you don't mind forwarding her details.

Post: Deal analysis

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

Hi all

I'm hoping I can ask for some advice from the great minds of BP. I currently own a number of SFRs in Kansas City. I have been approached by someone who owns a number of these himself and is looking to retire. He has provided me with the following:

- tax returns for last two years

- breakdown of income and expenses for last two years by category

- descriptive information on square feet, bedrooms, etc.

He has asked me to have a look and come back to him with an indicative offer if I'm interested. To my way of thinking, the detailed due diligence could happen after we establish that we are in the same zone in terms of total price, but am curious to get thoughts on how to develop an initial offer. One thing that makes this difficult is that the NOI is quite different in 2012 vs. 2013 (I have requested 2014 as well). How would you more experienced people move forward from here to develop an offer? I guess if I could establish what I thought the NOI would be on a "steady state" basis, I could back into whatever an attractive CAP rate might be and then decide how much below that to start from in terms of making an initial offer?

Many thanks in advance!

Ian

Post: Looking For JV Partner(S) For Morris County NJ Flip 300+K Spread

Ian FisherPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 84
  • Votes 20

interested as well - [email protected]