All Forum Posts by: Hassan Omar

12 months isnt required for many lenders on a rate/term refi, unless, of course we are talking about about GA lenders which are still kinda nuts, aren't they? :D

Actually I have some that will do six months, even in GA. In regards to using a portfolio lender, both you and I can use them, as can many others (most people just are unaware of and cant find them). Hard money is simply an OPTION.

9 - 12 month terms are available, it just has to be a very good deal. Yes, on smaller deals 6 month terms are the norm, however all HM lenders are different, some with longer terms for bigger deals. You just have to ASK them.

Hi Jon, thnaks for your thoughts.

I never said it was perfect. However in my market, Chicago, where the values in some areas have remained high, it's usable.

Yes the buyer does have to take into consideration expenses, vacancies and unexpected construction costs. To account for those and other contingencies, when using hard money one should be as aggressive as possible in reducing the purchase price and rehab cost via negotiations.

In a lower valued area your numbers will of course be different, as will your funding options. This example is just to illustrate how to reach a simple goal working of $1,200 a month in a high tax and purchase price area.

A for the hard money rates, 9% is available from the lenders I work with. However the borrower needs scores of at least 680, low DTI and a great deal. They look at the project and buyer just as a bank would and are more thorough than you can imagine.

Your market of Phoenix I hear, took a real beating, so the rates you'll get out there may be challenging.

I never used the words "cash out" in this case. Besides in this case the last thing one wants is a cash out refi as it blows your budget.

Yes there are are other ways to accomplish the same thing. This is just an example

Thanks for input :-)

here is an example of how to use hard money to buy and rehab your foreclosure purchases, all the way thru refinancing them to a conventional 30 year loan. Yes, I agree that you can get properties for far less money and fund them privately and other ways, however this is a good way to go if you live in a high value market and dont want to drop a huge load of cash down.

Step 1. Start by setting some cash or income goals for yourself and determining what opportunities are available to you.

Lets assume that you have a desire to increase your net monthly income by at least $1,200 so that you can add more to your monthly savings and investment accounts; your desire is to safely accomplish this through rental real estate.

This also assumes that you don't want to write a huge check to purchase and rehab a property, you are willing to use financing to get the job done, but don’t want to have to put down the 20 to 30% that a bank would require for a purchase, nor do you want to wait 35-45 days for the bank to make a decision on funding the deal, which may be gone by then.

After reviewing your personal finances you see that you have credit scores in the 680-700 range, household income of about $100k and a light monthly debt load where all those payments do not exceed 35% of your total monthly income.

You are comfortable paying at most $1,500 a month total in mortgage, taxes and other expenses on an investment deal and expect your property to begin generating your desired income within 6 months.

Based on your research, you have determined that on average, rents in your market for 2 bed room apartments are running at about $900 a month, property taxes are high and insurance rates are reasonable (for Chicago, at least). There are a decent number of foreclosure deals available via your local realtor and a large pool of qualified renters too. Rents have also remained stable or are rising due to the fact that a large number of people can’t qualify for a home loan, which has increased demand for rentals. With all that info in mind, you have to get at least a duplex to get the $1,200 increase in your net (after expense) income from the property.

Step 2. Find a potential deal based on your goals and what’s available in your market

Use the notes in this forum for the best ways to find deals and negotiate the best purchase prices. For this case lets assume that after working with a Realtor, you found a foreclosed, triplex or three-flat (three unit apartment building) where each unit rents out at $920 a month ($2,760 total), taxes and insurance are $2,100 and $1,200 a year respectively and property management fees are 10% of the gross monthly rent collected ($276 @ $2,760 a month).

Sounds promising if only you can buy and finance it quickly.

This property is in an area where property values are reasonably stable and where banks are not afraid to lend due to a large number of recent foreclosures. This was confirmed with your Realtor and investing lender.

The bank is asking $180k for the property, which needs $50k in repairs with an estimated value after all the repairs have been made is around $250k.

Step 3. Evaluate the potential deal to ensure that it gives you the $1,200 needed to achieve your goals and that it makes sense to do it.

Potential Monthly Rents $920 x 3 = $2,760
Less Expenses:
Taxes $2,100 /12 = $175 a month
Insurance $1,200 /12 = $100 a month
Management Fees @10% of rents= $276 a month
Total Monthly Operating Expense $551

Total Net Monthly Operating Income $2,209

Looks pretty good so far. Next we have to deduct the $1,200 a month that you want to net each month to see the max you can afford each month in mortgage payments and to also see the max amount that the mortgage can be.

That being the case, subtracting $1,200 from $2,209 leaves $1,009 a month for mortgage only payments, which equates to a conventional 30 year mortgage of about 159k at 6.5% APR (ask a lender to run some number for you).

Step 4. Calculate the numbers to see if the banks asking price makes sense and how to make the purchase price work

The bank is asking $180k for the property, which also needs $50k in repairs, meaning that the total cost would be at least $230k. At this point the deal is not going to work as is based on your goals and abilities. Especially since you don’t want to have to put out a huge chunk of cash.

That being the case you have to negotiate a purchase price of at least $50k below the max loan amount of $159k to ensure that the property is going to give you a net cash flow of at least $1,200 a month. A target purchase price of $100k or less and a hard money loan with 100% financing of the purchase and repairs addresses both of these issues.

Step 5. Figure out how you are going to finance the deal

Conventional Bank Lenders

Most Conventional lenders (banks) will only lend a limited amount to you for non owner occupied properties, usually up to a max of about 75% of the purchase price; with the repair costs being absorbed by you. So if you are to buy this property at $100K they'll lend you up to $75k and expect you to come up with the remaining $25k on your own and the other $50k for repairs, a total of $75k out of pocket.

That really sucks. Especially when you consider the fact that once you write one of those big checks, that money (which you may need for other, more important things) is gone til the property is either resold or refinanced or as it slowly comes back to you in the form of rent. They will also take a good hard look at you and your finances plus the property itself, which will force the closing to take at least 35 to 45 days from the date you submit your offer. The property could be sold to someone else long before the bank decides to lend you any money!

The better way to buy and rehab investment properties is with a hard money investor loan

Hard Money Lenders

Hard Money Lenders on the other hand, try to make it a lot easier for you to get things done. While they do take a good hard look at you and your personal financial situation, they look more at the property when making a decision and are much faster in closing your loans.

Most of the decision to lend is based on quality of the property you are interested in buying and the discount that you are buying it at. If the property is in a highly desirable area for people to buy and live in it'll be easier for you to secure funding.

If however, the property is located in a dangerous, crime ridden area or one where most of the properties for sale or that have recently sold are foreclosures, then you'll go thru a struggle securing your funding. You should also be aware that most lenders don't want to lend in areas where property values are extremely low, as they know that the odds of you either refinancing the loan or getting someone else to buy the property from you are really low. This is one of the main reasons why you can houses sell for $5,000 in some areas (sellers know that most people can’t secure financing for them, leaving only cash buyers as the market).

Terms usually are a bit higher than banks for interest rates and origination fees, and term financing period will be shorter, in most cases 6 to 12 months max with some exceptions for certain situations. Most will lend a max of 65% of the total after repaired value of the property to qualified borrowers for the purchase and repair of single and multifamily homes that the investor will not be living in. Some lenders require zero down while other up to 10 to 20 percent; everything depends on the strength of the borrower and the property.

The major benefit that you receive from working with some hard money lenders is the fact that you do not have to put down the huge chunk of cash that a conventional lender would require, nor did you have to cover the rehab cost out of pocket or put up with a long closing period, as a decision and funding can usually be made within days.

Step 6: Do the math for your hard money loan

Assuming that you can get the bank to accept your offer of $100k for the property, and if you qualify, the hard money lender may be able to provide financing that covers 100% of the purchase price and 100% of the total rehab costs, just as long as it fits within 65% of the value of the property after all repairs have been made, at a rate of between 9 and 18%.

So in our case where your lenders' appraiser gave an after repair value of $250k, the max the hard money lender could provide is $163k ($250k x 65%), which would more than cover the purchase price of $100k and the Repairs of $50k. There would other costs involved with closing the loan, such attorney fees, appraisals, insurance, taxes and origination fees that would affect the total amount provided, however the total hard money amount would not exceed 65% of the after repaired value.

The funds needed to cover the repairs would be distributed to you in the form of draws based on a percentage of the completion of the work per the agreement with the lender, lets say 25% per stage.

If you borrow $150k at 9% interest only rate, your monthly payment would be about $1,050 a month, excluding other rolled in costs, such as points and origination fees.

The term on this loan would probably be somewhere in the 6 to 12 month range, after which you would have to either have sold the property or refinanced it via another lender. You would also have to take into consideration the hard money-lender’s origination fees of about 5%, underwriting, attorney fees, appraisals and other expenses.

Of course you have to balance the total hard money borrowed with the terms you’ll get on your refinance to make sure that your goal of netting at least $1,200 a month is reached.

Step 7: Get the terms of your refinancing to ensure that your numbers will work

Once the rehab work is completed and after you have held title on the property long enough to satisfy a conventional lenders qualification terms, you may be able to refinance up to 80% of the newly appraised value of the property. More than likely you would qualify for a simple rate and term refinance where the higher rates of the hard money loan are replaced with lower rates and a longer financing period, usually 30 years; which should significantly lower your monthly payments.

That being the case the lender would payoff the existing hard money loan, rolling it into a new loan where the closing costs of the new loan included. Take the time to reach out to a conventional lender for current rates and programs.

In this case, you’ll want to make sure that your new loan does not exceed $159k and that the interest rate does not exceed 6.5% APR so that you can start earning the $1,200 a month in net income desired.

There will also be some closing costs to cover on the refinance so take some time to figure out what those look like and factor them into your purchase price. In this case I would give myself about a $14k cushion to cover the costs of both loans, unless willing to pay those out of pocket. In other words, try to get a lower purchase price.

Step 8: Get pre-qualified for a hard money loan

The hard money lender should use the same criteria for credit as a conventional lender does. On approval, you’ll have a clear idea of what is actually possible for you. TO get started, you will usually need to show the following:

Brief bio of you, which indicates the level of experience that you have and a plan of action for the property

recent bank statements

recent paycheck stubs

tax returns

Personal financial statement

List of properties that you already own. Include rental income and expenses, plus copy of leases.

Credit report (lender will pull)

If you already have a deal negotiated, you’ll also need to show:

Signed contract

Detailed repair list with cost

Your proposed exit from the deal, either resale or refinance

Contractor contact info

Other info will be needed as questions will arise, so please be prepared to answer them

Step 9: Negotiate your deal

Using the number you need to make the deal work, contact the seller and stay engaged til you are able to seal the deal via a signed contract for purchase. Start the negotiations with an amount that is well under the max that you can borrow for purchase and repairs so that you don’t have to come out of pocket. That being the case, I would target $100k as the max purchase price and begin negotiations at around 85% of that ($85k).

Keep going back and forth on the negotiations til you get a price that works for you, just as long as it doesn’t exceed your target price. Prior to starting negotiation, it is a really good idea to have a pre-qualification letter from your hard money lender to prove your ability to close the deal. Once you have the signed contract, submit the contract and other info needed to the lender for processing.

Step 10: Close the sale and begin the rehab work. Once the repairs are completed, you may consider working with a Realtor or professional property management company that was referred to you to assist in renting the property out (or reselling it if desired).

Step 11: Contact your conventional lender to begin the process of refinancing the property out. You will more than likely need to provide them with the same updated info that you submitted to the hard money lender. Let the lender know of all loans against the property as well as the terms you desire. I would also contact them prior to beginning the process just to make sure that you have considered all your options and are informed about the latest loan programs available and guidelines.

The lender should be able to roll into the loan the closing cost and other expenses into the loan, which will increase the loan amount above your payoff amount. The result however should be that you have no out of pocket expense except the cost of your appraisal and credit reports.

Step 12: Repeat the process on the next property ASAP.

Recap Working Backwards To Get Desired Net Monthly Income Of $1,200

a. Potential Monthly Rents $920 x 3 units = $2,760

b. Less Monthly Principal & Interest Payment -$1,009

c. Less Monthly Taxes $2,100 /12 = -$175

d. Less Insurance $1,200 /12 = -$100

e. Less Management Fees 10% x $2,760 Gross Rents = -$276

Total Net Monthly Income $1,200

Refinanced To Conventional Loan

30-year conventional mortgage, which refinanced the hard money loan and rolled in the closing costs, origination fees and other expenses at 64% of appraised value = $159,000

Monthly Principal & Interest Payment on a 30-year mortgage, 6.5% interest rate loan on $159,000 at 64% of appraised value = $1,009

Buying & Rehabbing The Foreclosed Property With Hard Money Loan

a. Purchase Price = $90,000

b. Repair Costs = $50,000

c. Cushion For Closing Costs, Origination fees and other expenses = $10,000

Total Loan On Purchase and Repairs = $150,000

Monthly Hard Money loan payment @ $150k X 9% / 12 = $1,125

After Repaired Value Of Property = $250,000

Max Hard Loan @ 65% Of After Repaired Value = $163,000

Hopefully this helps to explain the situation better. Of course each case on the purchase and refinance is unique, so in most cases the end result and terms may vary depending on your situation and the capabilities of the lender used. Good luck...

contact the owners and inquire if interested in selling. most will probably be bank held so you'll need to make an offer thru their realtors.

place ads in newspapers, signs on streets and do direct mail to land lords (some are still buying)

when you find one potentially, consider:

Finding Potential Buyers

There is an old saying in the real estate business that goes something like this, “It’s easier to find a house for a buyer than it is to find a buyer for a houseâ€; I agree. Which brings us to how we use options to raise chunks of cash.

Qualifying Buyers

The first thing that I do when a prospective buyer responds to my marketing or has been referred to me is to setup a personal interview. I’m trying to see what he or she can and is willing to do. The first question I ask before anything is whether or not they have visited any of my properties in person or on my website.

If they have and did not like what they saw or thought that the price was too high to pay, I offer to find one that fit their needs. I explain that even though I currently don’t have a property that fits there need right now, it shouldn’t take me long to find a couple of candidates that may. If they are interested, we’ll need to meet so that I can get an understanding of what they are trying to do. If they really are interested they will have no problem with meeting for a lunch or coffee house interview.

Prescreening Questions

I start with some basic info such as who they are, what they want and what they are trying to do. Then I get down to the meat of the deal, how much money they have access to and how much more can they get. I hate to sound greedy, but as the song goes, ‘there’s no romance without financeâ€.

To make things easier and so that I don’t miss anything, I like to use an interview sheet that asks the following questions [lets assume we're dealing with the johnsons as the buyers]:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLIENT INTERVIEW

[In this section I’m trying to find out who they are and how to reach them]
Name: James & Jenna Johnson
Phone: 678-555-5542
Email: [email protected]

[Here I am looking to see if they are employed and the type of work they do. If they are self-employed there can be a big issue if they are getting a bank loan)]
What kind of work do they do? Both are bank tellers
Who do they work for? ABD Bank
How long have they worked there? 6 Years & 3 Years (her)

Discussing Goals

[In this section I’m looking to see what their goals are and what they have done to achieve them]
What are they trying to do? (purpose) buy a house to use as a rental
Why? (motivation) income

[I am looking to see how quickly they want everything to be done by. If they want to have it all done within the next 90 days. If they qualify, I know I may have a winner and need to get started immediately,]
When do they need to move by? in next month or so

[Here I am finding out what amenities I need to look for in a house or investment property. Size of house, number of bedrooms and baths, if it needs a garage, basement or garage, etc]
What type of home are they looking for and what amenities are important to them? Single family home with at least 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and a 2 car garage

[Most buyers want to focus on a specific part of town, zip code or school district]
What areas are they interested in for their home or property? Stephenson High School district in Lithonia 30058

[These questions give me a feel for the type of project I need to find for them. If they need consistent monthly amount I know to look for some rentals, if it’s a large chunk of cash (over $5,000) I know it needs to be a flip]
How much cash do they need to raise and how often? ______________________________
What are they going to use the money for? __________________________________
When and why do they need to have everything accomplished by? __________________________________________________________________________________

[These questions help me to understand their thought processes and see if it’s realistic for me to work with them. If they sound like they have no idea what they are talking about, I pass]
Their planned path to accomplishing goals: ____________________________________________
Why they chose that path? __________________________________________________________
Steps taken so far: __________________________________________________________________
Steps they feel they need to take in future: ___________________________________________
Why with real estate _______________________________________________________

Their Finances

[In this section, I’m looking to see if they have the ability to get a deal done. If they are not already qualified to get a loan with a lender or are willing to get pre-qualified with mine, I have to pass]
What lender are they pre-qualified with? Not qualified yet
Lender Name / number: ____________________________________________________
If cash buyers, how much are they willing to spend? ____________________________

[If their credit score is not higher than 590 for a home buyer there is no way I can get them a loan or close on a deal. For investors, a minimum 640 credit score]
Credit Score (if known) about 680

[I’m checking to see if the buyer has had any major credit issues like bankruptcies or foreclosures that would prevent them from getting a loan]
Credit issues within past 2 years 1 late car payments last year, none since

[The buyers’ income has to be at least 4 times as much as what I know the loan is probably going to be for the property they want to buy. They must also have at least a fourth of their income available for reserves]

How much do they earn per month and how much is leftover for other stuff? $8,000 income, with about $4,000 available

Amount of cash available for monthly payments & other expenses: $2,000

[The retail buyer needs to have at least 4 percent of the purchase price available for their down payment and other costs; 20 percent for investors]

Amount of cash available for down payment and closing costs: $25,000

[This helps me determine the max loan they can handle. Includes mortgage payments and marketing expenses]
Max amount of cash they want to spend each month? No more than $1,000

[I need to know where there money is coming from because banks want the funds for the deal to be the buyer’s own money. Also if they need to borrow the down payment they probably won’t be able to afford to do the deal]
Sources of cash: savings / Line of Credit

[I do a little math to quickly estimate the size of the deal that they can get into, based on the financial questions above]

Available cash and credit qualifies them for what size project? ($1,000 per month equates to a $100k or less project)

Investor Experience & Education In Real Estate
[Here I’m looking to see how complex a project they can handle. For a new investor I’ll usually provide a property needing cosmetic repairs]

How much experience do they have in Real Estate investing? ____none_________________
(none, just home, already landlord, sold several before)

What types of properties desired & why? _Single Family 3 beds/2baths

Level of repairs desired & why? cosmetic

Do they already have a relationship with a contractor or will they be doing the work themselves? need contractor

Addressing Their Needs With A Plan

[After determining what the buyer can is willing to do, restate their goals and suggest a Plan For Them To Reach Goals (the services that you’ll provide for them. For investors it’s the number of houses they would need to buy and sell for large chunks of cash & number of houses they need as rentals for income)]

1. Set criteria for the project:

Areas to focus on – Stephenson HS District, 30058

2. Secure Funding & Get proof of funds – Get application or present list of lenders. Get lenders letter or bank statement in amount needed to close deal.

3. Set Max Value of project – Based on what their finances can support, timeframe, and desired contribution to achieving goal (i.e. $150,000 house) up to a $120,000 Home

4. Seek 5-7 candidates - based on criteria below:
• Types of property
• Single Family Home; Minimum 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 1,000 to 2,200 square feet livable space. Useful for chunks of cash and income
• Level & cost of repairs – Based on experience, desired level of repairs & 2 contractors estimates (cosmetic is less than $10k, moderate is less than $20k) __________________________________________________
• Positive Cash flow – Must net at least the amount it needs to desired plan contribution (i.e. min $100 per month). ___200_________________________
• Gross Profit - (Can be split among several projects). __________________________
• Select 3 best candidates – Based on repairs, income potential, salability, time, gut feel & fit to plan.

6. Make offers on best one or two that meet the criteria - with a signed contract and earnest money of at least $500, with 35 to 45 days to closing for retail buyer, 15 – days for investor using cash.

7. Send closing attorney & lender a copy of the contract - with instructions to begin their processes; order title work and appraisal; set closing date.

8. Go to closing with certified funds. Cashiers check or wire based on settlement statement from closing attorney and contract.

Stop, Ask For Questions & Give The Big Close

Ask ‘are you seriously ready for my assistance in locating an investment property & when do you want to get started? Yes, asap

If the answer is yes, then the first step is getting proof of funds letter or filling out your application to get approved for a loan.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of those questions are designed to quickly let me see if they really know and understand what they are trying to do. I don’t want indecisive buyers; I want to work with qualified, decisive people that I know will get deals done. Based on how well they answered my questions, I make a decision on whether or not to work with them.

If it appears that they can afford a property and have decent credit then I would move forward with them. If they are not pre-approved with a lender, I let them know that before I’ll do anything, they’ll need to fill out a credit application to get approved for funding or show a bank statement showing enough cash on hand to fund a cash only purchase. This protects us both from wasting time and my money. They have two choices, they can either apply with one of my lenders via phone or they can fill out my application, which I’ll forward to my lender for a decision.

Reviewing the Buyer’s Application
Once you have received the buyers’ application, review it with them over the phone to make sure that they have provided all info needed for each applicant that will be on the loan. Also make sure that all fields have been filled in completely and that the form has been signed.

Make sure to verify the following:
• Their names, addresses and phone numbers
• Employer name and contact info
• Their job title and monthly Income
• Other income from other investment properties
• Amount of assets available (long form)
• Monthly rent and debt payments (long form)
• Down payment available
• The amount of Monthly payments they are comfortable making
• SSN, DOB & Drivers License Number

Once you have confirmed the buyers’ information, take a few minutes to explain the rest of the process to them. That process being that your finance person will review the application and run their credit report. Based on her review, a decision will be made as to what they can or cannot do. If you are able to move forward, they’ll need to come up with their past two months bank statements and last two paycheck stubs. They may also need to provide some other documents at a later time. Let them know that if want to buy a property they will have to put down at least $500 in earnest money as a deposit and will need to sign an offer contract on it.

Processing The Buyers’ Application

Even though you will have already asked for this info during the personal interview, nothing is official until you get it in writing from the buyer. Trust me, you’ll be amazed how much more concise the buyers’ information is when it’s written on an application

In reviewing their application I am trying to make sure that they have a decent chance of getting a loan. Only when I feel good about the buyers’ chances will I forward the application to my loan officer. The last thing I want to do is lose a good loan officer because I flooded her with a bunch of unqualified buyers, especially since it costs the loan officer time and money for each credit report run.

The number one thing I am looking for is an estimate of what they can afford to do. As a rule of thumb, many sellers try to estimate the max value of the loan that the buyer is able to get by multiplying the amount of cash that they are comfortable spending each month on mortgage payments by 100. Using this theory, a person that wants to pay no more than $950 per month would qualify for a loan of no more than $95,000.

For most of the deals where the purchase price will be less than $120,000 that calculation is ok. Unfortunately it doesn’t take in to consideration the various levels of down payments, interest rates, taxes or insurance premiums that the buyer will have to contend with; so you’ll need to work the numbers a little more.

The buyer has to deal with what’s called their debt to income ratio. This ratio, which is calculated by dividing their total monthly household income by the amount of the debt payments (car notes, credit cards, mortgages, etc) that they are making each month, let’s us know if picking up the debt for the property will be too much for them to handle. this should not exceed 40%

Credit Issues

The next thing you are looking for is to see if they have had any major credit issues in the past 12 to 36 months; don’t be afraid to ask about it. Major credit Issues are things like bankruptcies, foreclosures or unpaid collections. They can only be resolved by paying them off or with the passing of time. If the buyer has filed for bankruptcy in the past, it must have been discharged for at least 12 months. Likewise for a foreclosure, it can’t have occurred within the past 36 months. Ask the loan officer what their rule are so that you don’t send bad applicants that waste their time.

Once you are satisfied with what you see on the buyers’ application and feel that they have a decent chance of qualifying for a loan, forward it to one of the loan officers on your team for a credit file review.

The Loan Officer’s Review
Shortly after receiving the application the loan officer will try to pre-qualify the buyer by ordering a copy of their credit report and pairing them with a lender. Based on what they see, you’ll hear one of three things:
1. The buyers’ credit is ‘Toast’ and there is nothing that anyone can do.
2. They’re marginal loan candidates that aren’t able to get a loan right now, but may be able to in the near future with credit repair.
3. They are qualified to get a loan right now.

If the retail buyers are marginal candidates and are not cash buyers then you should probably pass and move on.

If they are qualified to get a Loan Now, the loan officer will tell you what they really can afford to do. The loan officer will let you know the type of loan the buyer qualifies for and the terms. Those terms will include the interest rate, down payment percentage, the maximum that the buyer can borrow, the max monthly payment the buyer can afford and number of years that they’ll be making payments on the loan.

from here you try to find a deal

Hi Rochele

What have you done so far in terms of understanding your market, finding potential buyers, understanding property values and learning how the process works?

100% occupied, at average rental rates. Not much room for buyer to increase value. No value play