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All Forum Posts by: Rob Cee

Rob Cee has started 33 posts and replied 236 times.

Originally posted by @Liz Brumer-Smith:

I don't really agree with you either on this.  Yeah if you do a lot of deals in a short amount of time you can learn a lot.  But  2 years is not enough to go through a market cycle.  Everybody can be a genius in a upward trending market.  Investors gain a lot of wisdom going though market cycles.  I know a lot of people that thought they were geniuses and flipped tons of homes for 2 years from 2004-2006 and then got crushed in the downturn.  Now they are wiser.  I generally trust the judgement of investors who have invested through multiple downturns, it brings a lot of wisdom.  And that takes more than 2 years.  Also over time doing something you just gain more wisdom, I know I have myself in everything I have done.  If you were having brain surgery would you rather have a Dr. with 2 years of experience  or 20 years?

I don't agree with this.  I spent 13 years as as a mortgage broker and mortgage banker and being on the origination side is nothing at all like being a note investor.  Hardly any similarities.  Personally investing in notes for profit is a totally different business then doing the front end origination of mortgages.  Yeah you learn underwriting, appraisals, credit, etc...  But if I asked someone how long they have been a "note investor" I would not count time they spent as a mortgage broker at all, I would definitely separate it out.  

Also I disagree that there aren't "strategies" to investing in notes.  Some focus on NP 2nds with the plan to get them re-performing and sell them, some NP 1sts to do the same, some buy PN to keep in their portfolio, some focus only on seller financed notes, some focus on bank originated notes.  To me those are all "strategies".

Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

Let's see, how long ago was that since '82, hmmm, 33 years if my fingers are correct. Now, if we just say the paper game, buying a secured note, I think that was about '74. Gosh, I'm getting old! Owned my mortgage company and capital company around 25 years.

Give me a reason to count the dollar volume pushed across my desk over the years, you do realize that such amounts are from the same dollar recycled over and over. 

Another is @Ken Rishel, @Dion DePaoli  has been around, Dave Horn as well. Lots of old guys on BP. 

I can tell you, just because some note guy has done things for more than ten years doesn't mean are doing things properly. It's easy too to get caught up in a note niche, specialize in one area and become unaware of the big picture in many ways. 

As to learning, search for a recent post on an old thread concerning work shops and seminars, you really won't learn notes or finance there, you learn to feed a broker, LOL.

Coming soon, at a computer near you, will be Notes, by yours truly and other BPers in a blog, so say tuned! You won't need to go to any speedy seminars. I'll have stuff on BP. :) 

 So Bill can you tell us what you did in your note investing career in particular.  Not the owning a mortgage company part.  But how did you profit in buying notes as an investor?  Where did you find them?  Tells us what strategies you used to profit from them?  Did you make a lot of money?  Were they all in your local market?  Did you keep some for long term cash flow?  

Originally posted by @Tiger M.:

Hard money is a natural start in notes in my opinion, some class time is a good idea too, I really learned a lot from Gary Johnston, Clyde Wilson and Jimmy Napier seminars. I do JV's.

 I like all those guys you mention a lot Tiger.  Peter Fortunado, John Schuab and Dykes Boddiford I would add to that list.  All these guys have REALLY been around the block for many, many years, know their stuff, and pick up the phone when you call them.  

Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

I can tell you, just because some note guy has done things for more than ten years doesn't mean are doing things properly. It's easy too to get caught up in a note niche, specialize in one area and become unaware of the big picture in many ways. 

Yes but usually someone who has been doing anything at a high level for long enough has run into many of the landmines out there and knows much better how to spot them in advance.  I also find more wisdom from investors that have been investing in a particular asset through multiple downturns, vs. only having a few years and all those years an up trending market.  

Post: Vacant Lots Investing-Education

Rob CeePosted
  • Lebanon, NH
  • Posts 258
  • Votes 87
Originally posted by @Harry Asnien:

For investing in land there is Jack Bosch, The Land Geek, and @Seth Williams  I just piloted his course and it is good. 

 Thanks for the info on land education.  So both these guys have courses on techniques for profiting in land?

Post: Performing and Non- Performing Notes

Rob CeePosted
  • Lebanon, NH
  • Posts 258
  • Votes 87
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

Just to clarify, I have never advocated attempting to learn notes from any book, because you can't, no such book exists! 

You will not "learn" notes in any 3 or 5 day bootcamp, not in 3 or 5 weeks, not in 3 or 5 months, after you think you know, you'll find out the education never ends. That is because of laws and regulations changing, compliance requirements, loan programs that might be used to payoff your note change or are newly adopted. No two notes are identical, may be similar but never the same and underwriting is an art as much as a science, probably more of an art. You'll see where I have said "you can't paint a master piece with a paint by numbers set" 

What you get in a "note education seminar or course" is a paint by numbers set. Pretty much designed to introduce people (with or with some money) to jump in and be a part of a network established by brokers or dealers in their system of trading notes/mortgages. Find this note, call us, get a bid, go make a lower offer, here's the paperwork, go do the transaction. Now, who made money? You can, but if that note seller is shopping, you won't be making much. Cherry picking notes from a tape, you'll become more of a link in a chain, few can actually buy in bulk and the backroom activity gets much more involved in the brokerage side. There are probably more NPNs available because they are emptying the trash.

You can buy a wrecked car, rebuild it, sell it and make money, but you'll have more work involved, more technical issues, more legal issues than if you simply bought a good car and resold it. You can buy and sell good cars quicker than fixing the wrecked ones. Not saying dealing in wrecks can't be profitable, but to do it correctly you'll need much more automotive experience. And yes, there is much more  liability in fixing the wrecked one than in dealing with a decent car.

In notes, you can have all the guarantees, hold harmless, repurchase agreements you like, just know it's the guy at the end of the rope that gets hung.

I'll skip the rest of that rant, begin learning by understanding what a mortgage is, many dealing in them can't really define their position. What is a promissory note, a deed of trust or a mortgage and what rights and obligations are actually conveyed, learn the proper terms, many don't know that the "maker" of a note is the borrower, not the lender.

Learn to use your financial calculator, "N, PV, FV, i, PMT" read and understand that little instruction book with your calculator as to computing bonds and annuity streams, a note is a bond, most have an annuity stream. From that you can learn the discounting process and yield. Know how to compute an APR, notes are on a 360 day basis unless otherwise stated in the note obligation.

Know your collateral, that really means you need to master real estate principles, be able to appraise a property in your sleep from paper, hopefully a current appraisal or at least some good pictures. Boots on the ground is must for me.  I don't take a pig in a poke.

Now look and study at underwriting guidelines for Fannie Mae, why? Because you need your note underwritten as close to the conventional standard as you can get. These guidelines are on the internet, search for Fannie Mae underwriting guidelines.

No, you're still not ready to buy, IMO. If you know nothing about RE principles and laws, you're about 5 weeks into your studies. 

Now, look at mortgage brokerage laws in your state and under Dodd-Frank. See what "investing" is and what "brokering" is, investing is, first, using your own money, not uncle Ben's money or your buddy's from work or borrowed funds giving a third party an interest in a note, that is brokering. Brokering is also the business of buying and selling notes, if you have XYZ Capital LLC, dealing in notes, that is a business entity, the biggest clue that your company needs to be registered as a brokerage. If my real estate company buys a note for investment, it can, but as soon as my company begins to make it's greater profits from trading notes, it's outside the investing realm and becomes a brokerage operation.

Modifying a note is a new extension of credit, it is an origination of a new obligation. If the note is a residential loan it will fall under Dodd-Frank, which requires a RMLO Registered Mortgage Loan Originator to originate that new obligation. Just because you own a note does not give you a license to originate new loans! Check deeper, just because you have a license you may still be limited in originating loans you have a personal interest in, might look to a third party originator, so take care in reading state laws. 

There are pools of investors formed under SEC regulations, 506 organizations allows investors to pool funds, it still doesn't make that entity a mortgage loan originator. 

Compliance with brokerage laws is pretty important, not just blowing smoke at you. 

You attempt to foreclose on a borrower, they get an attorney, they force a judicial foreclosure, the note was originated illegally and your note can be worthless, not only may you lose the note and collateral but you could be fined as well. Post Dodd-Frank, a RMLO number must appear on consumer notes originated, there should be a seal with that registration number. If it isn't there, your note could be trash.

If you are still in the game at this point, now you can start finding a loan servicer to work with, they can usually assist in modifications  and some brokerage activities. 

Now, you may be set to buy, you can look at what is offered and begin you due diligence. Be sure the note was originated properly as required, check servicing records, collections properly accounted for, proper notices given, fair collection practices, who is the seller, can they buy the note back if there are any deceptions or fraud involved? I'll stop, you get through the above and I'll go into due diligence. There is also due diligence in finding a good note broker, not just the note and collateral. Good luck :)  

 This a really great post by Bill.  Here is a key part of his post:

"You attempt to foreclose on a borrower, they get an attorney, they force a judicial foreclosure, the note was originated illegally and your note can be worthless, not only may you lose the note and collateral but you could be fined as well."

I honestly think there are a lot of note investors out there operating on just "hope" that the lower dollar notes they buy that the borrowers aren't "savvy" enough to get an consumer attorney and challenge the foreclosure.  Because if they did, most of those note investors would probably get creamed.  The attorney would ask for the entire loan file and start going though everything with a fine tooth comb.   If a t was not crossed or an i not dotted it could be trouble.  But most small note investors will probably end up getting lucky, as most if not all lower cost home type borrowers will probably not hire an attorney.  

It seems like everyday I see another huge fine coming out of the CFPB, just saw a small servicer in TX get hit with a $1.6m fine for not doing modifications correctly by the book.  I don't know if this fine hits the note investors at all though.  It's not just BofA, Wells and JP Morgan getting big fines, I saw a smaller lender on the origination side just got hit with a $120 million fine and owner was personally hit with a $1 million civil suit (of course this was a originator not a note investor).  And you would be amazed this was for very, very minor stuff.  Dodd Frank is no joke.  

Post: Vacant Lots Investing-Education

Rob CeePosted
  • Lebanon, NH
  • Posts 258
  • Votes 87

@Chaim K.  I think those are 2 separate topics.  Learning how to buy at tax auctions is one topic.  And learning how to buy and sell vacant land profitably is another separate topic.  I found it very difficult to find any books, courses, etc.. in techniques and strategies to profit from land.  Robert Abalos had a course a while back on just investing in land.  I have never seen anything else.  I heard maybe the Urban Land Institute might have some resources in getting to learn about land.

@Tiger M. I am not buying notes right now. I used to buy and hold rentals for over 10 years, and I have been doing hard money lending for 3 years. I have not fully dived into the education on buying notes yet, I have only kind of casually looked into it. If I did look for notes one way I wouldn't mind starting would be somehow JV-ing with someone with 10 yrs+ success to learn the ropes. I think that is the best way.... learn by doing. Vs. learning the hard way by book education and trial and error.

@Tiger M. I was just curious who posts on the forum that has that level of experience and who doesn't. I seem to meet a lot of note investors with 1-3 years of experience (and many of them first introduced to notes though Eddie Speed speaking at their local REIA). But I rarely meet veteran note investors. I think @Ellis San Jose has been doing it for over 10 years too?