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All Forum Posts by: Jeremy Hale

Jeremy Hale has started 10 posts and replied 25 times.

All very helpful info, thanks guys, I greatly appreciate it. It looks like I should perhaps supplement my stocks with real estate instead of looking at it as one vs. the other. Right now my living situation is a little precarious in regards to where I'll be living in the near future, so I'll probably hold off on REI until I know what my plan is 100%. I'd hate to start investing in houses and then suddenly move across the country.

Thanks again, ladies and gents, I love this forum for how helpful/intelligent everyone is on here!

I'm currently in my mid-20s, and I'm trying to set a course for my future to stick on. I've long held an interest in real estate investing, but I'm unsure if it really fairs as comparably as many seem to suggest as my current investments are.

I've had the bulk of my money in an online "robo investor" company for the past few years. Over these years, I've averaged a bit over 9% yearly return (it was a hair over 10% until last month, which really hurt it). I do absolutely *nothing* to earn this 9% - each money I automatically deposit $2,000 into my account and this company automatically disperses it around my targeted funds. That's it. I ride the highs and lows and don't worry about much of anything.

For a while I was set on flipping homes. Not as a 'get rich quick' scheme, but because I genuinely enjoyed the process of taking a rundown home and making it something sale-able. I was into this for a few months before I finally came to the conclusion that real estate flipping is too competitive around here to do it casually - I was going to have to invest a lot of time and money into finding houses to purchase, and it seemed a little too much for someone of my limited knowledge in the area.

This, then, leads me to my second interest in holding rental property. I'm having a hard time finding repeatable, trustworthy information on expected returns, but I'm seeing a lot of 8-11% suggestions on returns doing this. Like I said earlier, I'm averaging 9% returns right now doing *nothing*. Even if I could manage to earn 11% returns, I'm not sure the hassle of dealing with renters and owning a home is worth 2% above what I'm already getting. Please, BP, tell me what I'm missing because I know you guys aren't going through the hassles and nightmares of real estate when you could be making similar gains in the stock market.

I see a lot of duplexes like this one:

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5...

While that is a bit of an extreme example (a lot of them will pull ~1600 in rent), there are still a *ton* of duplexes out here that are nearly 300k and make ~.005% in rent. Perhaps it's not a good deal, yet people are buying them - what am I missing? Are these people praying for massive appreciation gains? The house I linked in particular doesn't even cashflow $0.. it would cost you money to own it.

Originally posted by @Phil Pustejovsky:

Be VERY pessimistic in your analysis of what the property will eventually sell for once renovated. It's the single biggest mistake investors make when evaluating a deal to close on, renovate and resell. It's good to be optimistic on the overall view of the business of investing in real estate, but it can be financially destructive to be optimistic when estimating what a property will sell for once you have renovated it. Also, study all the comps, active and closed. If there are a ton of other listings in that area, you will not only have to compete with some of those that haven't sold by the time you put yours on the market, but others will appear after you begin rehabbing too that aren't there yet. If a wholesaler says it will sell for $179,000, (although your very, very, very detailed comps analysis will provide the true picture), as a rule of thumb, reduce that by 10%, so it may sell for $160,000 in the real world.

As for you renovation costs, it usually ends up costing 10%-20% more than your very best estimate. And the more extensive, (which this one sounds intensive), the more likely it will be on the 20% end rather than the 10% end. There's an old saying in the contractor business, the bigger the project, the more money you can lose. For investors, that same principal holds true. The larger the renovation project, the more problems could come up. So you want an even bigger margin of safety on this one. Spreadsheets may help get a general picture, but in the real world, experience teaches you to round up...

Maybe you can talk the wholesaler down to $80,000.

Plus purchase closing costs, insurance, etc. ($3,000)

$60,000 in renovations and holding costs

So you'd be in it $143,000

If it sells for $160,000, after real estate commissions, this deal may earn $10,000 and that's if everything goes right.

So you have no margin of safety either. Ouch!

Looks thin to me...but that's how it usually is with deals sourced from most wholesalers. Thin.

Yeah, I'm going to pass on this one. It needs a lot of work, and I think it's a bit much for a first time try at this. Also, the guy's numbers seemed a little hard to believe. Build a 2 car garage for 8k as an example. I don't know much about construction, but I suspect a proper garage would cost more than $8,000. 

I'm meeting with a wholesaler tomorrow to discuss some properties he has, one of which he has listed at 84k with a 179k ARV and 52k in estimated rehab costs. Of course, I will be scrutinizing these numbers and corroborating them myself, but that's initially what he has given me.

I made a quick spreadsheet using a combination of average values I've found online, along with J Scott's estimations, on the various fixed holding costs. Here is just a quick analysis that I did, the numbers on the left as if I financed it, the numbers on the right as if they weren't financed (feel free to tell me if you see any glaring issues):

http://imgur.com/GULWwYK

My first question is, am I correct in just eliminating the lender fees and mortgage payments from the fixed costs if I pay cash for the house? Is there anything else I should be changing? My money is in fairly low-yield investment accounts at the moment, so I'm not sure there's much of a point in adding in the lost interest I would be experiencing.

Secondly, why is there such a discrepancy in the 70% rule vs. my calculated costs? I realize it's a pretty hard and fast rule, but I wrongfully assumed it would be a bit closer to my calculated number. I thought I even estimated on the higher end for most numbers. Is the 70% rule just built around giving you a large buffer in case of unexpected problems?

Also, I'm putting in my first offer on a place. It's currently at auction with a bid of 79k, and I'm only putting in a cash offer of 55k (I would go up as high as 65k), so I doubt my offer will go anywhere, but we'll see. I don't know how anyone plans on making money on this place @ 80k since it needs realistically 40k in rehab with a resale of ~$145k. Wish me luck!

Post: Suggestions for the front of this house

Jeremy HalePosted
  • Rochester, MN
  • Posts 25
  • Votes 5

Good job, that looks way better. Definitely not something I would be afraid of living in now ;)

Originally posted by @Stephanie W.:

Ahhhh, one of THOSE... :-)! Yes, I understand your trepidation, but you can scope folks out via social media and BP to vet them to a large degree. Plus, going to friends and family is always an option. Right now none of my investors want any say at all, so if I found someone that I knew could do a flip and get us say 10% return within 5-6 months, I would be willing to risk it to be able to get a bigger pile of cash. There are people on BP that are so famously successful I wouldn't have an issue at all being one of their investors, even with my investor's money! Sometimes, you just have to let go of the reins and have faith in your judgement. Let me know if I can be of help. I'm always happy to give a little shove now and then.

 Haha. There are many successful investors on here that I wouldn't mind partnering up with, if only to learn from. Unfortunately, I don't see many (any) of them from Rochester, MN. Heck, I don't even see Minnesotans in general. Who are all of these people buying every property available?!

Originally posted by @Stephanie W.:

Consider finding other investors in your area that also have cash and pool your money so your prospects are larger in number. Margins are bigger on more expensive property and the competition starts getting thinner up there. I am experiencing the same problem here in Roanoke, VA. The good ole boys here gobble everything up before anyone on the outside looking in can even get a chance to make an offer. It's very frustrating, fortunately they rarely buy anything for more than $30,000, so I am able to sneak in on the more expensive properties. Plus, I stole one of their really skilled contractors, so I can flip less expensively now too. Hope this helps.

The problem with that, for me, is two-fold.

On one hand, I would never feel comfortable giving a strange thousands of dollars to split a rehab project. What if we disagree on how things should be done? What if he totally botches the project? What if he hires bad workers? In a partnership, one person really needs to have ultimate say or else things get bogged down. I wouldn't want someone else having say in my money.

On the other hand, I'm very new to this whole thing. I wouldn't feel comfortable being in charge of someone else's money, either. So, I'd rather just give it a shot on my own, though perhaps that's just not in the plans for me.

Excuse my novice sense of real estate here. How do you make money on new constructions? If you can buy and build for 200k, why would someone pay you 400k for that house if they could similarly build it for 200k? I'm not doubting that you do in fact do that, I'm sure wondering what the principles are behind it that allow you to.

I decided to be a bit more proactive than I have been and make some postings about purchasing distressed/defaulting on mortgage properties on a few place. If I can go ahead and get another ~50k (perhaps borrow from my parents, though they seem to think the idea of flipping is silly and a waste of time so I don't know about that), I might go ahead and purchase a list for some direct mailings. I checked out listsource and they unfortunately only had ~110 contacts (and they were expensive, I think, at 65c/lead) for preforeclosure/50-200k homes/lived in for x amount of years. If I can get some funding, I might go ahead and get that list and see if I can't find a property out of that.