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All Forum Posts by: Chris V.

Chris V. has started 12 posts and replied 150 times.

Post: Deal Analyses - Estimating Costs

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179
Originally posted by @Logan Hassinger:

@Chris V.

Hi @ Logan - Thanks, that is helpful feedback!  And sharing your numbers!

My (mis)use of the CAP Rate metric.

You are right the CAP rate is usually used in the sales context. I guess what I wanted to illustrate (mostly to myself) is what my actual CAP rate is has turned out to be as opposed to what I *thought it was* when I bought it. Also I wanted to put the investments I made into the property in a table along with the actual expenses. I feel it allows me to compare what I already have with what is for sale? The reason I am doing this is because of course I am asking myself, does it make any sense what I am doing with regards to reinvesting in these properties? Are my improvements paying off, or is it just feelgood knowing that my property is best-in-show:)? In any case I *do* get your point with regards to my misuse of the CAP rate :).

A more valid/normal use of the CAP rate would be if I turned it around and imagine that an investor would want to to buy my portfolio at a 7.5, 8 or 9 CAP. If they did what would it be worth to them (per unit). And assuming a 4.25% rate and 25% down, what would their Cash on Cash be? See table below.

Your vs. my Cost Numbers

Thanks for sharing your expense numbers as well! $2,700 per unit, with $500 CapX reserve. The numbers I showed did not include a CAPX reserve but if I did reserve $500 they would be $2,600 which is extremely comparable. If you don't mind, your $2,700 is the average of how many properties? 

Also, do you have any idea of comparisons between the averages for the different asset classes you hold? I only have one asset class, so I have no idea how much, for example, a property build in 1898 costs to run (although I fear the worst:). )

Again thanks for sharing feedback & data, I like that a lot better than the "opinion" I mostly see on this forum. We all know that what they say about opinions:)...

Post: Deal Analyses - Estimating Costs

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179

Deal Analyses – Estimating Costs

A while ago I wrote a series of posts ranting about the current state of the residential income property market in Stockton, CA. In each post I highlighted a current listing and argued why I felt it was not a good “deal”. You will find those posts; HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE. The below post is a re-post from the Stockton forum, as I was hoping to get some discussion started and thought this might be a better place to solicit some feedback.

The 1% Rule is Dead – Long Live Detailed Cost Analyses!

One common thread that runs through all my posts is that Stockton property values are rapidly outpacing rent increases. With margins tightening like that, thorough analysis of any prospective “deal” has become a lot more crucial than it seemed to be when the 1% rule still held in Stockton.

While rents for listed rental properties are pretty easy to guesstimate, my biggest challenge in analyzing new opportunities has always been estimating repair and rehab costs. When I first started out, I had no historical data to draw from. The same goes for many of the readers here. That's why I thought I’d create a post and share some actual numbers and explain how I established them and how I use them to budget for the future.

Where Does he Get Those Wonderful Numbers?!

In order to keep track of the chaos that a growing property business is, I have purchased a cloud based property management and accounting system. Every single transaction goes into this system.

All bills are categorized when they are entered in as either “repairs”, which are expenses that are tax deductible in the current year, or as a type of "building improvement". This last category represents Capital Expenditures (CapX) which are written off over time. This means that when a building goes into a rehab project, two things happen. Because the rehab always contains both repairs and CapX spending; A.) Expenses go up and B.) The value of the building goes up.

So in order to do any meaningful analyses I will need to look at A.) my Trial Balance, to see what the value of the building was, and B.) my income statement, which details income and expenses. Fortunately those reports are really easy to pull up from my property management system. Unfortunately there is no slick report editor allowing me to create the type of reporting that I will share here. This means it still takes (a lot) of time to manually stick all numbers in Excel.

Individual Results May Vary…

While I hope my numbers will give the reader some indication as to what things cost, it is important to keep the old idiom about “comparing apples to oranges” in mind. My historical data is a pretty accurate predictor for *me* because I only buy one particular type of building in one particular market. Then, I apply my own, again standard, rehab formula to them. Your building type and rehab / management formula will likely be different.

Now Onto the Main Event – The numbers!

Towards the end of 2013 I bought 3 triplexes, 9 units altogether. It is important to know that all those buildings are extremely similar in every way. Then I applied my secret sauce to these buildings. This includes a pretty high end remodel for all the empty units or units that emptied out during the process. It also includes a very thorough exterior job, from roof and rafter tail ends and new gutters, to replacing all suspect siding and replacing all windows, sliders and doors. Garage doors too, even if there were only a few bullet holes. Just to make sure, I am not advocating you go this route, but as they are my numbers you need this context to understand what they mean.

First I analyzed each building separately and then I added all the numbers for the three buildings up and divided them by the number of units. This allows us to look at the more anonymous average cost *per unit*. So keep in mind that all numbers you see are per unit, not per building. Finally I rounded all numbers to the nearest $100. This makes them easier to read. Finally I annualized the numbers for 2016 by doubling all Jan-June numbers, which should be close enough.

2013 Year Zero - I bought all buildings towards the end of the year. And I can only guess as to the previous owners numbers. Only thing I am sure of is that they must not have been good because of high vacancies and low rents. The only reason that I even included the 2013 column is because it offers some insight into how much money I had into each unit by the end of that year.

2014 Rehab-O-Rama - This was a very expensive year. Two of the buildings basically got the full exterior treatment and a total of 4 units got a high end rehab. This obviously did not lower vacancies. Notice the steep increase in each units value (+11K). This year was even more expensive than it could have been. This was on account of me placing too much trust in a contractor that came highly recommended. And that same contractors gambling addiction spinning out of control. Nuff said:(.

2015 Light at the end of the tunnel? – This year still saw a lot of work. One more building got finished up. Notice that each unit’s value went up by another 4k. Also a lot of this work was smaller in scope and therefore classified as “repairs” and is qualified under expenses. Vacancies were still a problem as I had to urgently get rid of a legacy tenant who was getting a little too entrepreneurial. This of course happened while I was in the middle of a rehab of yet another unit, so I did not have cash or time to redo the other unit immediately. In the end, the unit that got vacated that way got a “quick-fix” rehab before getting re-rented. To a great tenant by the way!

2016 Smooth Sailing! – Besides a two month vacancy the first half of 2016 was pretty event-less. At least financially speaking. There was no rehab work, and very few service calls. Therefore I feel that the 2016 numbers best represent an average unit in full swing. Once it has been dialed in that is. For 2017 I fully expect similar cost numbers, only with slightly higher rents.

Duplex Comparison – The below numbers are the per unit numbers for a distressed duplex I bought for cash late 2014. This duplex is the exact same type of cookie cutter property as the triplexes. Only it is, well, a duplex:).

It's important to mention that this Duplex needed a LOT of work. A lot. However the price was right. Properties that need a lot of work actually works out well for me. This is because I don't need much of an excuse to do all the work anyway. So at least if what I am ripping out was a complete write-off I am at least getting it at a price that justifies ripping it out.

Anyway, long story short, I pre-loaded the work, as is my custom, and by the beginning of 2015 I had a fully rehabbed and soon thereafter fully rented Duplex! 2015 was a very stable year. No drama! I feel this is in large part because we did all the work upfront. I am glad to report that so far 2016 is equally drama-less, only with slightly higher rents. So I annualized the 2016 numbers based on that.

Conclusion – So How Does this Help?

First off, based on the above numbers I know I am not likely to be named "Entrepreneur of the Year" any time soon. In my defense; you should keep in mind though that I am doing true long term buy-and-hold, and that my “strategy” includes pre-loading all maintenance and rehab work where possible. Also, I do right by my tenants and I rent out units that I can be proud of. Because it's the right thing to to and because its good business as well.

Back to the numbers, here are my most important conclusions:

1.) Getting units that are in pretty-to-really bad shape fully “dialed in” my way costs a worst-case average of $18,700 per unit for my triplexes and $21,000 for my duplex. Ouch! This includes repairs and CapEx. And more new HVAC backpack units than I care to remember. Double Ouch!! This helps me estimate the real price of a listing.

2.) In a normal year a fully “dialed in" unit is going to incur an average of $2100 to $2600 in regular ongoing expenses. Never less.

3.) This allows me to predict what NOI I will have one I'll have a new building up and running. I can calculate the new building's NOI based on the rent I think I will get for each unit. Or I can simply use my current NOI range of $7,500 to $7,900. And since I will know what the current loan rates and terms are is can predict my cash on cash return as well.

Since I (vividly) remember the state all these units were in when I bought them I can now look at a new building and say: “Well I think that this building is only half as bad as that duplex.” I now know this would mean approximate $10,500 in rehab cost. I also know that when I am done with them, the cost to run a unit is never going to be less than $2100 per year. To be safe I should use the at the $2600 number.

Anyway, that’s it for now. If you are still reading, you must have found this useful. If you did , please do me a favor and click on the "VOTE" button. That will help me determine where I spend my time on in the future:). If you have any questions; let me know! Or even better, post some of your own multi year numbers for comparison...

Post: Stockton Deal Analyses – Estimating Costs

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179

Stockton Deal Analyses – Estimating Costs

A while ago I wrote a series of posts ranting about the current state of the residential income property market in Stockton, CA. In each post I highlighted a current listing and argued why I felt it was not a good “deal”. You will find those posts; HEREHEREHERE and HERE

The 1% Rule is Dead – Long Live Detailed Cost Analyses!

One common thread that runs through all my posts is that Stockton property values are rapidly outpacing rent increases. With margins tightening like that, thorough analysis of any prospective “deal” has become a lot more crucial than it seemed to be when the 1% rule still held in Stockton.

While rents for listed rental properties are pretty easy to guesstimate, my biggest challenge in analyzing new opportunities has always been estimating repair and rehab costs. When I first started out, I had no historical data to draw from. The same goes for many of the readers here. That's why I thought I’d create a post and share some actual numbers and explain how I established them and how I use them to budget for the future.

Where Does he Get Those Wonderful Numbers?!

In order to keep track of the chaos that a growing property business is, I have purchased a cloud based property management and accounting system. Every single transaction goes into this system. 

All bills are categorized when they are entered in as either “repairs”, which are expenses that are tax deductible in the current year, or as a type of "building improvement". This last category represents Capital Expenditures (CapX) which are written off over time. This means that when a building goes into a rehab project, two things happen. Because the rehab always contains both repairs and CapX spending; A.) Expenses go up and B.) The value of the building goes up.

So in order to do any meaningful analyses I will need to look at A.) my Trial Balance, to see what the value of the building was, and B.) my income statement, which details income and expenses. Fortunately those reports are really easy to pull up from my property management system. Unfortunately there is no slick report editor allowing me to create the type of reporting that I will share here. This means it still takes (a lot) of time to manually stick all numbers in Excel.

Individual Results May Vary…

While I hope my numbers will give the reader some indication as to what things cost, it is important to keep the old idiom about “comparing apples to oranges” in mind. My historical data is a pretty accurate predictor for *me* because I only buy one particular type of building in one particular market. Then, I apply my own, again standard, rehab formula to them. Your building type and rehab / management formula will likely be different.

Now Onto the Main Event – The numbers!

Towards the end of 2013 I bought 3 triplexes, 9 units altogether. It is important to know that all those buildings are extremely similar in every way. Then I applied my secret sauce to these buildings. This includes a pretty high end remodel for all the empty units or units that emptied out during the process. It also includes a very thorough exterior job, from roof and rafter tail ends and new gutters, to replacing all suspect siding and replacing all windows, sliders and doors. Garage doors too, even if there were only a few bullet holes. Just to make sure, I am not advocating you go this route, but as they are my numbers you need this context to understand what they mean.

First I analyzed each building separately and then I added all the numbers for the three buildings up and divided them by the number of units. This allows us to look at the more anonymous average cost *per unit*. So keep in mind that all numbers you see are per unit, not per building. Finally I rounded all numbers to the nearest $100. This makes them easier to read. Finally I annualized the numbers for 2016 by doubling all Jan-June numbers, which should be close enough.

2013 Year Zero - I bought all buildings towards the end of the year. And I can only guess as to the previous owners numbers. Only thing I am sure of is that they must not have been good because of high vacancies and low rents. The only reason that I even included the 2013 column is because it offers some insight into how much money I had into each unit by the end of that year.

2014 Rehab-O-Rama - This was a very expensive year. Two of the buildings basically got the full exterior treatment and a total of 4 units got a high end rehab. This obviously did not lower vacancies. Notice the steep increase in each units value (+11K). This year was even more expensive than it could have been. This was on account of me placing too much trust in a contractor that came highly recommended. And that same contractors gambling addiction spinning out of control. Nuff said:(.

2015 Light at the end of the tunnel? – This year still saw a lot of work. One more building got finished up. Notice that each unit’s value went up by another 4k. Also a lot of this work was smaller in scope and therefore classified as “repairs” and is qualified under expenses. Vacancies were still a problem as I had to urgently get rid of a legacy tenant who was getting a little too entrepreneurial. This of course happened while I was in the middle of a rehab of yet another unit, so I did not have cash or time to redo the other unit immediately. In the end, the unit that got vacated that way got a “quick-fix” rehab before getting re-rented. To a great tenant by the way!

2016 Smooth Sailing! – Besides a two month vacancy the first half of 2016 was pretty event-less. At least financially speaking. There was no rehab work, and very few service calls. Therefore I feel that the 2016 numbers best represent an average unit in full swing. Once it has been dialed in that is. For 2017 I fully expect similar cost numbers, only with slightly higher rents.

Duplex Comparison – The below numbers are the per unit numbers for a distressed duplex I bought for cash late 2014. This duplex is the exact same type of cookie cutter property as the triplexes. Only it is, well, a duplex:).

It's important to mention that this Duplex needed a LOT of work. A lot. However the price was right. Properties that need a lot of work actually works out well for me. This is because I don't need much of an excuse to do all the work anyway. So at least if what I am ripping out was a complete write-off I am at least getting it at a price that justifies ripping it out.

Anyway, long story short, I pre-loaded the work, as is my custom, and by the beginning of 2015 I had a fully rehabbed and soon thereafter fully rented Duplex! 2015 was a very stable year. No drama! I feel this is in large part because we did all the work upfront. I am glad to report that so far 2016 is equally drama-less, only with slightly higher rents. So I annualized the 2016 numbers based on that.

Conclusion – So How Does this Help?

First off, based on the above numbers I know I am not likely to be named "Entrepreneur of the Year" any time soon. In my defense; you should keep in mind though that I am doing true long term buy-and-hold, and that my “strategy” includes pre-loading all maintenance and rehab work where possible. Also, I do right by my tenants and I rent out units that I can be proud of. Because it's the right thing to to and because its good business as well.

Back to the numbers: here are my most important conclusions:

1.) Getting units that are in pretty-to-really bad shape fully "dialed in" my way costs a worst-case average of $18,700 per unit for my triplexes and $21,000 for my duplex. Ouch! This includes repairs and CapEx. And more new HVAC backpack units than I care to remember. Double Ouch!! This helps me estimate the real price of a listing.

2.) In a normal year a fully “dialed in" unit is going to incur an average of $2100 to $2600 in regular ongoing expenses. Never less.

3.) This allows me to predict what NOI I will have one I'll have a new building up and running. I can calculate the new building's NOI based on the rent I think I will get for each unit. Or I can simply use my current NOI range of $7,500 to $7,900. And since I will know what the current loan rates and terms are is can predict my cash on cash return as well.

Since I (vividly) remember the state all these units were in when I bought them I can now look at a new building and say: “Well I think that this building is only half as bad as that duplex.” I now know this would mean approximate $10,500 in rehab cost. I also know that when I am done with them, the cost to run a unit is never going to be less than $2100 per year. To be safe I should use the at the $2600 number.

Anyway, that’s it for now. If you are still reading, you must have found this useful. If you did , please do me a favor and click on the "VOTE" button. That will help me determine where I spend my time on in the future:). If you have any questions; let me know!

Post: Local Investment Group Stockton CA?

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179

Post: Local Investment Group Stockton CA?

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179

Stockton Real Estate Investors Meetup:

http://www.meetup.com/epicrein/

See link above; I think this is it. (Google is getting pretty good at this whole search business...:) )

Post: Local Investment Group Stockton CA?

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179
Hi @Enoch Conley:

Hi Enoch - Thanks! Do you have the contact info for the organizer for that group? Or do you have a link to a website etc. ?

Also, have you been there before? If so, what did you think of it?

Post: My manager is advising against repositioning my new multi.

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179
Originally posted by @Eric Hathway:

 My property manager has been in real estate in this city for 50 years and he is even the previous owner of the building I just bought. He is content with low rent, poor tenant quality, and low turnover.

Hi Eric, congrats on making this step! Now to your question: you just bought an under-performing property (which is great because there is room for improvement). However the part I don't get is that you are listening to advise from the very person who was making it under perform! Think about it!:))

Keep this in mind:

What you want: Performing properties that get the most rent. (for example $100 per month more)

What property mangers want: properties that are little or no work. They don't care about 8% of $100 if that means that they will have to deal with tenant questions, people moving in moving out, contractors running around, etc.

The property management company I (still) work with mainly is exactly like that. And from their perspective I 'get' it. Why not try to keep things as they are and collect almost the same amount of money?

Finally, having 50 years of experience is nice, but it also means that, unless you are that one flexible rainbow sparkle unicorn, over the years you probably build up some biases and callouses which might not necessarily be in tune with 2016. Just today my property management company tried to tell me that there is no tenant desire for online payments. And they are right; when they got started in the 1960's I am sure there was no need for that:).

Anyway, of course you want to listen to all sides of the argument, but what you are proposing sounds like pretty low impact, and non-committal (as you are doing it piecemeal you can pull the plug at any time) so I would definitely try it if I were you! If you make sure you have a bit of a $ buffer,what do you have to loose!

If you haven't yet, listen to the Jake and Gino podcasts, Wheelbarrow profits gateway 1,2,3&4. One of those is called "Manage Right" that is what you want to listen to first.

Again congrats, and good luck!

Post: Local Investment Group Stockton CA?

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179

Hi Jo-Ann - Hmmm, Women's Invest?:) I'd feel that would be a bit of an awkward call to make:) Do you have a link to a website by chance?

Post: Local Investment Group Stockton CA?

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179

Hi Everyone - Is anyone here aware of, or part of a local investment group in Stockton, CA? It would be great to network with other active investors in the area...

Post: July rent not paid

Chris V.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • SF Bay Area
  • Posts 154
  • Votes 179
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

My tip: Try not to get emotionally involved. Focus on what is important: your financial interest. You are very unlikely to "educate" anyone, or make them see the "error of their ways" or whatever:). What I try to do is I take the high road, as long as I am getting paid

If that means I need to eat some sh*t here and there and make the tenant feel they "won", so be it. You might not get a great "victory" but in the end you OWN and they RENT, and that says enough.

As to your particular example. I would do what is easiest and most practical and ask the PM to deposit the check, and thank them, and then communicate again that in the future rent needs to be paid such and so. Don't get emotionally involved! Being petty does not help anything even IF you are right. 

Sometimes you just got to suck it up, part of land-lording (or running any type of business probably) is dealing with irrational customers *who are wrong*. Don't let them drag you down to their level, specifically if it does not cost you anything out of pocket, just keep moving forward. Easier said than done, I know, but I've been there and I can assure you it gets easier as you do it more often. Just remember, its BUSINESS:). 

Good luck!