All Forum Posts by: Carlos N.

@Lana Lee

You can simply google something about Handling a Tenant's Abandoned Property.. you will find a lot of info. 

If the tenant didn't pay rent for certain days and tenant has vacated the unit without communicating an intent to return, landlord has to post notice of the tenant’s rights regarding the property. Given a 10 day is a logic period for their response, without response it is consider as a abandoned property such that you can clean up their mess in a legal way.

When your tenant(s) didn't inform you they are moving out or leaving officially, you are not supposed to touch their belongings.. if you did, they can sue you. or similar things like you will have to inform or get permission from your tenant to go to the property while your rental lease or landlord and tenant relationship is still active.  if any tenants play games with you, they can sue you for damage on their belongings. 

Another more official way to do it is through the court where you can google the form:

Request for Determination of Abandonment 

I guess it is more or less the same thing attorney do this for landlord if there are tenants' abandon belongings

some updates:

Got a call from PM company, I am amazed how they response when I told that I will come pick up the keys tomorrow. According to them , the tenants didn't respond for signing the surrender form. PM said they consider the tenants moved out as long as they dropped off the keys to their office. I was like really?! cant believe how they passed all the responsibilities to landlord or their customers.. I asked them what will the PM company do if the tenants come back and sue me or them taking away their belongings, etc. They said they can be my witnesses if the tenants sue or go to court for their belongings. I was like thank you so much lol. unbelievable!!

They never issues any kinds of forms such as surrender property form not the abandon and tenant's rights notice (I googled many articles online). THey just said they will follow what I asked them to do if I want any written notices or letters etc. Really lousy and not knowing the rules/laws or property management or rental.. Surprise how they can be in this business for so long.

I even have to make some forms for them... I guess I will have to wait for another 10 days just to throw the tenants belongings after posted a written abandon and tenant's right notice just in case.

@Account Closed

thanks for the advice again.. I deeply know and understand that I should not expect anything from them as so many fishy things going on.  I will also contact the Water and PGW, PECO as well. For the tenant(s) personal belongings is a tricky thing, I have no formal proof or documentation given by the PM company regarding the property surrender form... I would go ahead and throw away all the items do not belong to me once I got the written proof. 

Based on what I see the pictures as clothes, sneakers, treadmill, mattresses are with in the property, I bet the PM company had the property surrender form signed.  I think they don't want give me as many as documentations since I guess they are afraid of me going for some legal actions against the tenant(s) [eviction], such that their/tenant(s) subleasing scheme to multiple people may be blown off and got themselves into trouble.

Even chances is small, I am trying to push them to give me some documentations if anything goes wrong and protecting myself from being sued etc. I am quite prepared to hire an attorney or HAPCO to do eviction, may be the PM company is scared; such that they will get everything done asap.

@Account Closed 

I will ask the PM to give them the property surrender form to sign. I haven't checked but I expect the PM should do that since the tenants rent this property from this PM company?

@Jarrod Kohl

Thanks Jarrod, and much appreciates for your reminder... There are lots of things going on, and based on what I see the pics PM company sent me... I suspect they rent my property out to multiple people.  I am trying to get some documentation that the tenant(s) on the lease moved out as they return the keys but the management company is not really helping.. they claimed that they usually got the keys and basically case closed. No official statement or written documents were being signed by the tenant(s. I wonder if PM or anyone should have a written documentation that tenant(s) returned the keys and moved out on whatever date such that there is no more landlord-tenant relation between me and the tenants?? I want this document just in case if tenant(s) come back and sue me that they never move out.. and I would be in trouble if I got in and remove their properties and items... 

the security deposit part, I am not so worried in a way.. as long as I have proof that I sent out the document and the tenants didnt give me new addresses when I requested... I should be ok if going to court

@Jarrod Kohl

Thanks for the comment. Yes, I will probably not to use theirs.  I will see what I can find.

I have already expected or under the impression that the tenant(s)/ PM company will used the 2 months security deposits as the "charged". I also recalled that landlord or the lease stated that tenants will be charged for late fees daily, etc. Without disrespect,  I personally don't think it is quite useful or worth it to fight for the late fees in my situation since they(tenant(s) / PM company) planned to utilize the security deposits.. I have been under the impression that this is kind of a norm or culture there due to the sharing I heard/read online or from real life cases through friends or people I know. 

I will say I am lucky if I got back my property safe and quick without any big damages and without going to court

.

@Steve Babiak

Thanks for the reminder again. However, the situation is that I suspect the PM companies rented out for many people. the tenant(s) listed in the lease may or may not live in the property. I asked the PM to get them a letter to sign that they are moving out and no more landlord and tenant(s) relationship, etc.. the PM company seems that don't even know how to or they claimed that they never issue any paperwork as long as they got the keys back.. that's why I suspect that the PM/tenant(s) may be doing many under table or fishy stuff, such as use someone names on the lease and rent out to different people. all cash deals and no records in a way.

The delivery of the security deposit accounting is not a matter in a way as long as I send it out say certified and registered mail with tracking, etc. Though I am not so sure how and when I should issue the security deposit accounting in a legal perspective.  I remember I need to issue the letter within 30 days they moved out. 

What kind of supporting document I should have the PM or the real estate management company to issue ? 

A letter with company letterhead stating the tenant(s) returned the keys on whatever date. Or a letter stating that they didn't receive the rent for September and October such that the month to month lease or relationship is terminated ?

The only official document or poof I got is just an email reply "we get the key, we will go check tomorrow or Wednesday." from their email account (non a company domain but an yahoo email account they have been using).  I don't know or I don't think that is official enough in terms of a legal perspective that tenant(s) abandon or so called officially moved out when they return keys to property management company. Any opinions?

@Account Closed  

Yeah I think it is..  as for the inspection part.. Forgive to me to say that it is sort of useless in a way unless you go for legal action. the main question is what you gonna do even you see 6-7 people living inside? call police? complain to the PM or the management company? cancel the lease etc? it is all about how you want to handle it.. but again different people have different pov or values or even diff $ in their pocket.. I don't think it is a wise thing to go legal action if we don't have a lot of money. On the other side, there are always risk that the property would have much more risks when so many people inside. 

To me is that I am sort of regret that I picked the wrong location such that I will sell this property asap.

Other side topic:

In fact, many people are renting their own houses or places for airbnb.. many places are only legal to do so if and only if you rent the property out for a month at least but not days. Airbnb also are going though the loophole... you wont see the actual address of the properties until the "landlord" let you know. To follow the legal rules, you wont get monthly rental clients easily , so what you gonna do =)?

@Joe White

No worries

Depends on how you think/look at things or your values.

1) While many of us as an investors, or I should say as a landlord, most of landlord want is a stable agreed rental income monthly that generated from the properties. I got that through out the years; however, most of my friends or people(who invested in philly back in decade or earlier ago) I know got burnt, either tenants not own rent for 3-4 months, or had 3-5 tenants over the decade. and eventually they all sold out their properties at a lost becuz the market in Philly didn't appreciate as quick as others states. I consider myself as so call lucky in a way. Therefore, I am not complaining a lot as long as I got what I wanted.

2) The other way to look at this PM is that they find ways to make more money which is smart where they leverage their risks of being sued or compliant etc. Of course, this is not what I suggest or do if I were them. It won't last long for their business. There are always loophole in the real estate market... I am not gonna go deep into the dark side of it since many of them are exposed in 2008 crisis or many of us had already experience so many cases.  Since the PM claimed that there is a potential buyer, I will just take the chance/risk for few more days because I recalled one of people I know that the PM got him a buyer without applying mortgage, so closing is completed quickly. 

3) I think properties are being listed in MLS mostly in Philly... so doesn't really matter which agent to use in a way since brokers can always make a deal among themselves whoever got a client buying the house and closed the deal. Of cuz getting a honest, legit or a broker who take care of you is always good, but not easy and 90% of the time is more of less they are all the same. I have seen so many real estate related companies are extremely lousy regardless of sales, the people who works in the companies, and bosses are all the same. you can only see $ on their eyes.

4) I think this is also a reason we (as a "client" or "customer" of these PM or real estate company ) are always on the "loser" side or always being taken advantage. These companies always have an edge that we wont go complain as much or go for legal actions cuz it will just a lose for us as always. We will lose time, money, happiness and brain juice, etc if we go sue them or just to see how much money we can burn on both sides.

I will see what I can do after I got my keys.. hopefully I can get this done and find a better place to invest

@Account Closed

Thanks for reminder! One thing is that what I suspect was kind of right.. It seems that they rent out multiple "tenants" since many pictures showing 5-6 mattresses, and some mens (tenant(s) on the lease are women one was over 70s as I recalled, the other is like 4-50s I think), sneakers, shoes, kids toys and stuff. Quite obviously the PM did rent out the property to many people. or the tenants sublease or let others live in.

I think that's how the PM made much more money since the rental income in philly is not as high in many big city unless in a nice neighborhood...  That also the reasons why they keep delaying and not responding in a timely manner, or no official paperwork and stuff.