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All Forum Posts by: Bill McCartney

Bill McCartney has started 2 posts and replied 24 times.

Originally posted by @Peter Lohmann:

Units that rent for under $500/mo in Columbus Ohio, it's simply impossible to make a decent return no matter what you pay (I wouldn't even take a building like this for free). The income (which is spotty to begin with due to the tenant demographic) is simply not enough to cover the operating expenses. You can't maintain and turn over units at $500/mo. There's just not enough cash there to handle routine maintenance, turnovers, plus unexpected expenses and capital improvements. Humans and the environment inflict more damage per day than you are receiving in rent, if that makes sense (over the long-term, that is). I've seen this play out time and time again. Another way to think about this - your expenses are independent of the rent you are receiving. Everyone should stop thinking about repairs and capex as a percentage of rent. It makes no sense and leads you down dangerous paths.

You need to be around $550/mo per unit, regardless of the rest of the details, to start making any money, and preferably a lot higher than that if you want to actually earn a decent return.

 I have only a couple units below $500 but I deal almost exclusively in units below $600. What you're describing hasn't been my experience. My approach has been to offer quality housing at an affordable price. I am relatively picky about the tenants that I place. I fix all known issues before I move someone in and I am responsive when they call about any maintenance items which are fixed normally within 24 hours. My tenants are extremely grateful and take care of the units. I know that I'm new to this business and I currently have the capital to freely make improvements so we'll see if this model chews me up and spits me out!

That being said, long term capex hasn't bitten me yet. I completely understand what you're saying that a water heater, furnace and roof all cost the same no matter whether you're getting $600 or $1500. 

Originally posted by :

Regarding your 50% expense question, I find it fairly accurate over a lot of properties. It varies a lot property to property but roughly: Taxes 10%, Insurance 5%, Vacancy 7%, Repairs 8%, Capex 5%, Property Management 10%, Services like Landscaping, Snow removal, pest control 5%. You have a competitive advantage because you can do many of these yourself or hire them out.

When you decide to do them yourself be really honest with yourself about what it costs to do them and make sure you understand what all they do. Are you good at tenant screening? Accounting? These things are a vitally important part of the business and you may be terrible at them.

I think you're spot on with your assessment. It isn't in the hood. It's a nice little area but due to mismanagement they are attracting the worst tenants the town has to offer. Thanks for the rough breakdown on the numbers. Off the bat I'm saving 10% on management, 5% on services, and 5% on repairs (I'm paying materials only). That's 20% off the top that's going into my pocket and with the apartment complex we'll be close to 30k a month in rents. To me, that's worth my effort! If I had a full time job and had to hire everything out it might be a different, but I'll be making a full time income working a part time job.

Originally posted by :

So we decided(or really, it was decided for us) that we'd completely rehab the apartment. And we went with excellent finishes- I thought, why not update this baby? And when we did, we also raised the rent by 15%, and got the best tenant we'd ever had in that building. So a eureka moment followed- why not do the same upgrades to the remaining 9 units as they turned over? Over the next year, we modernized(re-did kitchens and baths, essentially) about 7 apartments, raised the rents on those apartments by 15%, and the tenant base changed almost immediately. The building became a desirable place to live, occupancy(which had been 80% at best) zoomed to almost 100%, with very short turnover times in between move-outs. Problem tenants? Nope, no more. 

I think under-rented situations offer the most promise for stellar returns, especially when those low rents are a direct result of poor management, inefficient building systems, and poorly finished apartments, as those problems are generally fixable. 

Your situation was essentially my game plan (less the tenant torching a unit)! Thanks for sharing your experience! I know every building is different and has it's own path to success but at least what I had in mind should work in theory.

Originally posted by @Peter Lohmann:

Is this a deal you'd do?

No. Run.

You're local. Would you mind sharing your reasoning? It doesn't sound like there's any uncertainty in your response!

As a followup to my question about how people actually spend 50% on expenses, does anyone have a rough figure for what percentage folks are budgeting for maintenance and management? Maybe that's where my significant savings is coming from. But those two would have to account for probably 25% of the 50%!

Originally posted by @Rocky S.:

@Bill McCartney There is a lot more you need to consider which will bring down the cash flow. How old are the units and how have these been maintained? What is the upcoming big ticket expenses for repairs and improvements (not including regular wear and tear that you plan to do)? You should also consider landlord insurance and create an LLC to buy. The owner quoted expenses both seem very low and will likely cost you more over time of your ownership. Typical rule of thumb is 50% of the income goes into expenses. Of course, it varies depending on the portfolio but yours is off by quite a bit.

 I was only in 4 units thus far so I can't say for certain but the units I was in were nice. Once we have everything in writing, I'll do a walk through of all of the units and can renegotiate or back out at that time but my understanding is that those units were representative of the buildings as a whole. The roofs are newer (8 years) and brick exterior and there's copper supply lines. I can invision cast iron drains may pose a problem at some point in the future. I would want to replace the single pane windows before raising rents but that's a relatively minor expense as there are only one window in each bedroom, one in each family and one in kitchen. I don't have an age on the furnaces in the 18 units and would need to consider that but other than as you say normal upgrade costs, I don't see a lot of big ticket items. Maybe I'm missing something?? That's why I posted to ask for more experienced guidance :-)

Originally posted by @Marc C.:

14255 x 12 = $171,000. Since it's older, let's use 50% expenses. So your NOI is $85,500. $825,000 purchase price, so we're at a 10.3% cap rate. On the face of it, with seller financing, it seems like something to pursue further. A lot of questions to ask: How far of a drive is it from you? From major employers? What's happening with the economy there? Can you get the opinion of the #1 apt. Appraiser in the area about expenses and cap rates?

 It's half an hour from me so I'd be managino myself. There areally quite a few major employers in town and a lot of people make the easy drive of 35-45 commute to Columbus for work. I'd say the economy in town is stable. I've been reluctant to consult with anyone local as I don't want someone to offer the seller a better deal! How would I go about talking to someone about it without an off market deal being swept out from under me?

It is the lowest priced units in the whole city. Similar units are going for $600 for 1 BR and $725 for 2 BR.

I would only get rid of problem tenants and then do upgrades as the unit turned. I am thinking 2-3 years on bringing rents up, not a quarter. 

I've seen spreadsheets with people showing 50% expenses but never a breakdown of how they accrue that cost. Can anyone provide me with a year of expenses that comes out to 50g? I haven't been doing this long, but besides what I would consider CapEx on new purchases my expenses don't reach anywhere close to 50% unless I include debt service.

First, a little about me. My wife and I have had a few really good years with our business so I took the profits and spent the last year building a small portfolio of 21 units in Columbus and Newark, OH. We have quite a few SFH, a couple of duplexes, a quad and 2 weeks ago closed on my first 6 unit. Most of the units are C's but have a few B's. I didn't really know what I was doing so I started out using all cash thinking it was the safest route but recently started using both owner and bank financing to leverage the cash I have left. I have really only bought home run's. Earlier this year, I bought a foreclosure for 50K for cash, put 2K into it, then it appraised for 100K so right now I'm doing a cash out refi and getting back 70K. Oh, and it rents for $1500/mo!

That is how most of my portfolio is. Not including maintenance (which I mostly do myself and has been averaging just $175 per month) or capex, anything over 46% occupancy covers all of my costs. I read somewhere on here that not including management costs, not paying out for maintenance and not including capex and calling what you have left profit is not really profit. Got it but not sure what else to call it! My wife has been managing our business and now all of my time goes to real estate so if you want to call it a job, I'm ok with that. The longest I've had a unit sit vacant is 10 days. I take good care of the units and the word is out. I have a waiting list from current tenants' friends and relatives.

At any rate, it takes A LOT of time to find those deals. I've probably looked at close to 250 deals in the last year. And I bought up every one that fit the criteria I was looking for. The good deals have been much harder to come by in the last few months and I think finding 21 more units like the ones I have will take a lot of effort. 42 more would take forever.

Which finally brings me to the reason for my post. I told you what my strategy has been to date. This is quite a bit different and so I'm looking for some advice.

The off market deal:

36 units asking $825,000. 2 buildings with 18 units each. Built in the early 70's. All brick. Tenants pay all utilities. Radiant electric heat in floors in one building and gas furnaces in another. All single pane, older windows. Roofs 8 years old. Cast iron plumbing. One building is gas and as I understood it, is concrete floors and walls as firebarrier. I imagine this would be a pain when it comes to plumbing repairs. The other building is electric and is stick built.

23 1 BR units averaged @ $397 per month.

1 1 BR unit converted into laundry @ $0 per month.

12 2 BR units averaged @ $427 per month.

Gross $14,255

Expenses (owner claimed) $2000 - I will be managing the building myself and doing most of the maintenance.

Taxes $916

Insurance $566

Net $10,773

Mortgage $5536

Cash flow $5237

Owner is willing to carry financing. 10% down. 5 years at 6.5% then jumps to 8% in the hope I'll get traditional financing within that time.

The building is probably the lowest rents in the entire city (I wouldn't call it a town, but it's a pretty small city). The building manager told me this was because it wasn't a very nice area and attracting higher paying tenants was a problem. As it turns out, it has been poorly managed for quite a while. They have the lowest rent and attract the type of tenant that can only afford the lowest rent. Which in turn drives out the decent tenants so they have to further reduce rent to attract more low paying tenants. The good news is they have very few vacancies. The bad news is when I started asking around, most people with options would prefer not to live there because management "either doesn't see or doesn't want to see" what goes on there. The area is pretty nice, however. To me, I see that as opportunity. If I run out the drugs, low lifes and trouble makers and turn around the reputation, in a few years I can get rents to where they should be which would add about $4000 per month in revenue.

So there's the deal. This would be a big step for me. My gut says jump in with both feet like I always do. But there's a part of my brain that is making me nervous (or could be my friends and family who all work real jobs and don't have a penny saved that want to give me investment advice....) It would be nice because I'd have 36 units in one place. But that is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. And if I do this deal, it will probably be the last one I do for a while as it will eat up a lot of the cash I have left.

What do you guys think? Is this a deal you'd do? Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by @Chris Mason:
 That trick actually only works with ARMs with teaser periods of 7 years or longer. So a 7/1, a 10/1, etc.

Gotcha. I didn't mean to give him false hope or put him into an undesirable position. I've been in his "freaking out" shoes and was just trying to come up with some proactive ideas he could research to present on Monday. This close to closing I'm sure if he can at all avoid it he doesn't want to start all over with a new lender. Thanks for the heads up, though!