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All Forum Posts by: Arthur Wong

Arthur Wong has started 6 posts and replied 13 times.

Post: Failed BRRRR in Dayton

Arthur WongPosted
  • Investor
  • Ohio
  • Posts 13
  • Votes 13

Investment Info:

Single-family residence buy & hold investment.

Purchase price: $18,500
Cash invested: $30,000
Sale price: $55,500

I recently exited a deal that I started back in November 2019 (it is under my investments under "other"). I was hoping to BRRRR this house in Dayton, Ohio. I bought the house through a "facilitator" from Ontario, Canada who had developed relationships with wholesalers/renovators/property managers in different cities. The company I was hooked up with seemed to be okay when I spoke to him and after checking a reference (a fellow Canadian). That company (let's call the company and the contact there MW) seemed to wholesale the property, had contractors to help flip the house (that needed a full gut) and was originally going to serve as my property managers. Everything seemed to start out okay with the purchase price being $18,500 and a stated renovation cost of $20,000 with 10% contingency. MW said it would be done by February. This timeline seemed very optimistic.

Problems started with the delay in the timeline. By April 2020, MW had stated that the house was pretty well completed except for the furnace and a/c. I was getting stories that both were delivered and just needed to be installed. By June 2020, I was getting antsy about why the furnace and a/c weren't installed yet. Turns out nothing was at the house and it just felt like my house was forgotten for a few months. By the end of June, I really put some pressure on MW that everything needed to be finished and I was promised that he would do a "full court press" to complete my property and get it performing. Then I couldn't get a hold of him. No return calls or emails. I found a realtor who had sold a house in the neighbourhood to take a look at my house.

I had been sent some pictures of the rehab by MW and was pretty happy with the work. That changed when the realtor I sent in (Saunya) showed me pictures that there were some major deficiencies. The basement didn't have any windows but yet you could see sunlight while standing in the basement (foundation issues). The back door was hung improperly and there was a hole where the door knob would usually be. Some eaves were missing. The concrete side deck was crumbling along with the steps leading to that small side deck. There was lots of garbage left in the "backyard". And there were a few random smaller esthetic issues inside the house.

Then randomly in late August, MW calls me and says he has found a tenant willing to pay $1000/month. I asked to see her application and MW never sent it. When I asked Saunya to go take a look at the house again to see if MW had performed some repairs I demanded that he do before I pay any additional payment, she found out that the tenant had already moved in.

I found late that (I'll include these in point form to try to keep this from being a 100-page read):
-tenant had moved in by the time MW told me about this potential tenant
-tenant had paid a $2,000 security deposit and close to 2.5 months rent all of which MW pocketed as his claim that I still owed him money (I refused to pay him anything until all the deficiencies were completed)
-I still don't recall signing a property management agreement with MW so somehow he just rented out my house without my acknowledgement and of course pocketed the rent money and the security deposit

I don't know why it took me so long but by the end of October, depending on who you talk to, I either fired MW (even though we didn't have an agreement) or MW fired me as an owner. I hired Saunya as my property manager and she met with the tenant. The tenant had a long list of complaints including the furnace not working along with promises that MW had made to her. After fixing the foundation issues ($6,500), I started having tenant issues. They included:

-she was so upset with MW, she didn't want to pay any rent as the furnace wasn't working
-she ended up paying $800 for November after the furnace was fixed (we had agreed to this due to the inconvenience of the furnace)
-she got COVID and lost her job
-tenant missed three months of rent
-tenant wanted to stay and agreed to pay $1300/month until she was caught up
-tenant pays $1300 in March 2021
-tenant pays $1200 in late April 2021 (if I remember the date correctly)
-I never see another dime of rent
-tenant eventually leaves (I forget if it was the $250 I offered her for the keys or Saunya's threats of evicting her)
-tenant has close to a $3,000 water bill that was outstanding!

I fixed up the house a tiny bit and put it on the market and sold it for a loss.

Lots of lessons learned here but the main ones include:
-never trust a home inspection report when you didn't hire the home inspector
-never trust a salesperson's ARV when that salesperson is trying to sell you the property
-always get a second set of eyes on a project as I felt pretty helpless sitting in my house outside Toronto and only hearing from one perspective
-get the lockbox code from the start so you don't have to ask for it later

Incidentally, I could've exited this project with a potential profit. MW offered to purchase the property from me for 10% more than all the money I put into it but I would need to take a 100% VTB at somewhere around 8% interest until he sold it in six months time. Basically, I would've made $250/month in interest and hopefully a 10% return (this was before I paid for the foundation issues and some other work on the house) assuming he could sell the house for a profit after the six months. I didn't take that deal because by that time, I didn't trust MW as far as I could throw him. The potential $250/month in interest wouldn't make up for any trouble that I foresaw with dealing with MW. Even though I lost money in this deal, I still stand by that decision even though - who knows - it could have ended alright.

Don't let the numbers fool you ... I lost money on this deal.

No kidding @Stephen Fryer 

I was hoping to BRRRR this deal and basically get about $45,000 back. I was getting quotes of about 9% interest and it was going to cost me about $6,000 for that honour. So basically, I'd be paying 9% interest on $51,000-ish and only getting back $45,000. The numbers just didn't make sense.

I have a recent ex-tenant who hadn't paid utilities for about 3-years. In her lease agreements, she is responsible for water and sewer and electricity. This is specifically about the water and sewer payments. The name on the utilities is kept in my name/my LLC's name but the bill is either mailed to the property or to the property manager who then lets the tenant know about it. As the owner of the house, it ends up being my problem and I've paid it.

I'm wondering what you would do if you were in my shoes.  The tenant moved to another city after moving out on April 1 of this year.  She was heavily subsidized through Section 8 (and yes, if she was on Section 8, this is a violation but I didn't end up doing anything about it).  I've paid well over $3,000 on utilities while she lived there (she didn't pay utilities for the last 3+ years).  My original property manager tried to reach out to her and work out a deal but she basically ghosted him so no repayment schedule was set up.  She also skipped out on her responsibilities on the annual section 8 inspection so because of that and the fact that we didn't have any access to the house to fix our portion of the violations, I didn't get rent for March.  At the end of the day, I didn't end up rehabbing the house at all and instead, I just sold it.

Would you try a collections agency to try to recoup a portion of the monies owed?  If you've gone the collections route, was it successful?  I'm also not sure if this is trying to get blood from a stone.

I've never gone down this road so would love some feedback from those who have.  Thanks!

Hard money is too expensive over a long time since I can't refinance. It would only work if I were looking to fix and flip (which might be an option).

That's true Remington but unfortunately since I can't seem to BRRRR, my money is pretty well locked up but you definitely bring up a great point!

Investment Info:

Single-family residence other investment.

Purchase price: $20,000
Cash invested: $45,000

This was my attempt at a BRRRR. It is a SFH in Dayton, Ohio that needed a full gut job. Unfortunately the house took a lot longer to rehab and ran a bit over budget but the good news is it is supposedly going to get me $1,000/month starting July 1 and the ARV is supposed to be between $70-75,000.

What made you interested in investing in this type of deal?

I was really interested in doing a legitimate BRRRR just to say I did it. I'm a buy and hold investor and really wanted to see if I could turn this into a free house. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out yet but it is still a good buy and hold assuming my PM has gotten the paperwork on a long-term lease.

How did you find this deal and how did you negotiate it?

I found it through a facilitator. It was my first purchase through her and it hasn't worked out as well as advertised. Hopefully things just look up. I didn't do much negotiating to be honest.

How did you add value to the deal?

A full rehab was done and air conditioning was added.

What was the outcome?

The outcome is still TBD. I haven't figured out what my strategy is going to be now that I'm finding it almost impossible to get this refinanced at a decent rate and tolerable fees (I'm Canadian and don't have an SSN or an American credit history). If the tenant wants to do a rent-to-own or I get a decent price from an investor, I'd consider it going either way. If not, it's a buy and hold.

Lessons learned? Challenges?

I learned a few things here:
1) I've found it impossible to find a conventional lender to give me a loan so I could do a cash out refinance. There are alternative lenders galore but the interest rates are close to 9% along with sky-high fees.
2) My single family home rehab amongst the other rehabs my contractor was taking care of didn't seem to be much of a priority. The general contractor told me it would be completed by February and here we are in June and it is just being completed.

Did you work with any real estate professionals (agents, lenders, etc.) that you'd recommend to others?

I'm withholding judgement on this one until later.

Thanks @Patricia Steiner!

I definitely learned from this one and have moved onto better areas.  Hey, it was my first and I got a free education out of it!

I bought my first US investment property in an F-class neighbourhood that in essence showed a 25% cap rate. It cost me $23,500 all cash to purchase plus closing costs (honestly, I didn’t know anything about neighbourhood classes, I was just hypnotized by the cap rate). The property was “turnkey” and had what was advertised as a “long-term tenant”. In actuality, the tenant I inherited had signed a 1-year lease paying $850/month subsidized completely by Section 8 (with probably about 3- or 4-months left on that lease) and was definitely not what anyone would consider a great tenant.

After her 1-year lease, the tenant moved out and I needed to put in approximately $6,500 in rehab and extermination costs. My strategy was to get a tenant who had a voucher through Section 8 to maximize the subsidized rent. The house was a really large house with five bedrooms which would maximize rents but limit the number of people who would qualify for such a big house. After getting the house back up to Section 8 standards, it took almost half a year to get a new tenant in.

My first (and best ever) property manager explained to me that no matter how great the house is, my tenant will always want to move out of the house.

This was because the area was quite rough and anyone who is living there will want to move up to another house in a better neighbourhood. Makes sense but unfortunately I had already bought the place. My second tenant finally moved in and I received $826/month rent all subsidized through Section 8. Finally, the cashflow was flowing! Everything was fairly smooth with only a few random repairs along the way and of course, the dreaded annual Section 8 inspection. Every year it seemed like there were somewhat insignificant repairs needed that seemed like they were nit-picking. I get it now though as they needed to keep the properties up to a certain standard and I assume they were this nit-picky with the tenant’s responsibilities as well.

Everything was running smoothly until about the two-and-a-half-year mark when I found out that my tenant hadn’t paid her water and sewer bill for 24 months! Twenty-four months!!! How had they not shut down service after 24 months of not paying your utilities? It ended up working out to be about $100/month and even though it was stated on the lease that the tenant was responsible for the water and sewer, as the owner of the house, I’d be ultimately responsible for the grand sum. My property manager reached out to the tenant and it was basically getting blood from a stone. I had to weigh the $826/month I was receiving versus having her leave and very likely having to put in thousands of dollars back into the house to rehab it and find another tenant. Now when I think about it, I think this may have violated Section 8 rules but I was dreading the inevitable change of tenants and the amount of work that would be necessary.

Long story shorter than I usually go rambling on for but the tenant finally left this April after about four years as my tenant. She left me with about another one full year of sewer and water bills and skipped out on her responsibilities on the annual Section 8 inspection violations. According to my new property management company, it would cost me $11,500 to get it back up to Section 8 standards to start looking for another tenant. It took until close to the end of April before I was told that the tenant had actually left on April 1st and by the time my property manager sent their maintenance person to inspect the property, someone had broken in and stolen the hot water tank and possibly some parts of the furnace. By the time I decided I would try to sell the house, the lockbox was stolen. So I’m assuming that whoever stole the lockbox, had access to the house until the maintenance person was able to install new locks. By that point though, I was definitely looking to offload the property and actually was ready to accept a couple of lower offers that I would have considered when the tenant was actually in the house. Anyway, I’ve sold it now.

All told, I believe I was relatively close to breaking even after my second tenant left. Quick math says that $826 x four years but in actuality, it was probably more like $726 x four years since I’m left holding the utility payments. That’s still right around $35,000. I paid a whopping (but so worth it 12% PM rate for most of those years) so I’m left with about $30,500. Insurance was relatively high and ran around $800/year, property taxes were really low, usually around the $600/year range and you’d have to factor in repairs which after the inherited tenant left, let’s peg at $1000/year for about four years. So that’s $11,000 of expenses which coincidentally after commissions, will be right around the amount that I’ll receive from the sale proceeds. So I’ll have made a tiny bit of money on this property in the five years I’ve owned it.

Sometimes I hate the truth.

A few things I learned:

1) I know there are a lot of questions out there about Section 8 but yes, accept Section 8 tenant. I have other properties with Section 8 tenants and they are fine. And with the Covid situation (hopefully this type of scenario doesn’t happen again though we are far from being out of the woods yet) and the worry about paid rent, it was nice to know that at least some portion of your rent would definitely be coming in.

2) The Section 8 annual (or now possibly every 2 years depending on your county) can be a bit of a pain with the amount of “violations” that are on there and the way they affect your cashflow but they are probably for the better.

3) While I’m going to leave F-class properties alone from now on, I’m sure others can make it work. I wish the current owner the best of luck and it sounds like that’s his niche and he’s probably local (which I’m sure will help immensely) but if you want to be a passive out of state/country investor, it’s probably best to stay away.

Post: Cleveland Heights properties

Arthur WongPosted
  • Investor
  • Ohio
  • Posts 13
  • Votes 13

Thanks Dustin!  Great point.  I know upon closing one of my recent deals, while filling out the paperwork and talking to the people at either Garfield Heights or Cleveland Heights, they spoke about the escrow process for the POS violations.  So it's not just Shaker Heights.

I ran out of characters on the original post so I'd like to elaborate on point #2.  As the seller and I are both Canadians, we didn't want to have to exchange Canadian dollars into US dollars to send to the title company just to send that same US dollar back to Canada to exchange back to Canadian dollars.  That and being somewhat naive and sort of understanding the way property taxes are structured in Cuyahoga county (they are billed 6-months in arrears), I basically saved my 2.5% on the exchange rate (as did the seller) but I lost a bunch on the property taxes.  If I had gone the route of the having the title agency do the statement of settlements and escrow, things like property taxes would have been up to date.  Oh well, live and learn.

The property taxes being paid 6-months in arrears was going to be my third point above.

Post: Cleveland Heights properties

Arthur WongPosted
  • Investor
  • Ohio
  • Posts 13
  • Votes 13

Investment Info:

Single-family residence buy & hold investment.

Purchase price: $41,400
Cash invested: $41,400

Single family home in Cleveland Heights. The tenant is being finalized through section 8 but it should be approximately $1100/month + utilities. The closing on this took forever! I had this under contract in January 2019 and it took until November 2019 to complete the point of sale violations and transferred over to me.

What made you interested in investing in this type of deal?

I'm always looking to add to my portfolio in order to gain cashflow.

How did you find this deal and how did you negotiate it?

I purchased this from a colleague who was looking to sell. I didn't do a ton of negotiating to be honest as he is a friend and I'm guessing that the price was fair.

How did you finance this deal?

I had refinanced my own personal residence to purchase three homes outright in the Cleveland area.

How did you add value to the deal?

I can't say I added value. The numbers already made sense though now that I've said this, the property taxes are WAYYYY higher than Cleveland properties.

What was the outcome?

It took over 10-months but I was able to complete the transaction. Now to get the house rented.

Lessons learned? Challenges?

1) Properties in Cleveland Heights and Garfield Heights need a POS (point of sales) inspection in order for a sale to be complete. I'm not sure how many inspectors there are but with all the "violations" that needed to be completed, it was hard to find people to do the work since a bunch of the jobs were small jobs.
2) We should have formalized the agreement through a statement of adjustments and escrow but in order to save the double exchange rate, we didn't and I'll end up losing out a bit.

Did you work with any real estate professionals (agents, lenders, etc.) that you'd recommend to others?

No. The only professional I worked with was with Mount Morris Title Agency (Debbie) which I would definitely recommend.