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All Forum Posts by: Alex S.

Alex S. has started 2 posts and replied 8 times.

Post: 15 unit asking 2.5m!!! Can a newbie do it?

Alex S.Posted
  • San Diego, CA
  • Posts 8
  • Votes 1

Double check the inplace numbers you are underwriting with are accurate. Make sure you understand the asset and every single expense line item including maintenance capex. underwrite with FCFF or NOI adjusted for maintenance capex. Id say expenses are more important that rent; expenses you can somewhat control.

If the thesis on the investment property involves major capex of the int/ext make sure you have someone with GC and project experience on your team. 

Confirm that the investment thesis is stress tested and put through a scenario analysis. I.e rent growth in a base case, upside, downside; mkt cap rates in base/upside/downside etc. how this affects timeline and stabilized yield. 

Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Alex S.:
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Alex S.:

*assumes CA averages for valuation, rent, profitability, et

There are strategies for starting small or starting big, that are discussed but I am not entirely sure what would be like too big for a first deal...

My inclination is to assume that the larger the asset or more units the better, as there is less tenant risk, professional property manager, etc. BUT the larger the deal the harder it becomes to pursue a rehab strategy with meaningful impact on appreciation. 


Question:

How big can a new investor realistically go if they expect to borrow 60-65% on anything above $10M? 

If a lender sees that there is a strategic GP involved and LP capital committed, there shouldnt be any issue with the loan?

Why not try and raise as much capital as possible? Is there any reason why going bigger is bad when leverage is not excessive and underwriting is conservative?


 Boils down to experience. Five years ago anyone and everyone was getting into owning real estate and many of them right now lost all their investors money and went broke. The real deal with larger properties is you cannot rely on your property manager - you are doomed to fail. You need to manage your property manager, work with them on strategy, market analysis, long term capex decisions etc. Think of an astronaut flying a space shuttle and you are mission control. You canhave the greatest pilot (PM) ever but if you do not know how to operate and manage it overall, your doomed. 


What would you say is the leading cause of the loss of capital of the people/funds you mentioned? Aggressive underwriting/leverage? 

How many people go into the space without experience in investing and underwriting?


 lack of experience is the #1 cause - people will take a $20,000 class over the course of a week which focuses more on marketing than how to properly manage an asset and think they are ready. 


 Interesting. So what it sounds like is there is a lot of opportunity for groups that understand operations and economics/finance of investing in real estate to stand out of from the rest. Where did they go wrong in the underwriting?

Quote from @Scott Trench:
Quote from @Alex S.:

*assumes CA averages for valuation, rent, profitability, et

There are strategies for starting small or starting big, that are discussed but I am not entirely sure what would be like too big for a first deal...

My inclination is to assume that the larger the asset or more units the better, as there is less tenant risk, professional property manager, etc. BUT the larger the deal the harder it becomes to pursue a rehab strategy with meaningful impact on appreciation. 


Question:

How big can a new investor realistically go if they expect to borrow 60-65% on anything above $10M? 

If a lender sees that there is a strategic GP involved and LP capital committed, there shouldnt be any issue with the loan?

Why not try and raise as much capital as possible? Is there any reason why going bigger is bad when leverage is not excessive and underwriting is conservative?


I mean, if you go big enough, someone may eventually write a book about you. 

The risk is that the cover looks like this:

Haha funny.
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Alex S.:

*assumes CA averages for valuation, rent, profitability, et

There are strategies for starting small or starting big, that are discussed but I am not entirely sure what would be like too big for a first deal...

My inclination is to assume that the larger the asset or more units the better, as there is less tenant risk, professional property manager, etc. BUT the larger the deal the harder it becomes to pursue a rehab strategy with meaningful impact on appreciation. 


Question:

How big can a new investor realistically go if they expect to borrow 60-65% on anything above $10M? 

If a lender sees that there is a strategic GP involved and LP capital committed, there shouldnt be any issue with the loan?

Why not try and raise as much capital as possible? Is there any reason why going bigger is bad when leverage is not excessive and underwriting is conservative?


 Boils down to experience. Five years ago anyone and everyone was getting into owning real estate and many of them right now lost all their investors money and went broke. The real deal with larger properties is you cannot rely on your property manager - you are doomed to fail. You need to manage your property manager, work with them on strategy, market analysis, long term capex decisions etc. Think of an astronaut flying a space shuttle and you are mission control. You canhave the greatest pilot (PM) ever but if you do not know how to operate and manage it overall, your doomed. 


What would you say is the leading cause of the loss of capital of the people/funds you mentioned? Aggressive underwriting/leverage? 

How many people go into the space without experience in investing and underwriting?

Quote from @Brian Burke:
Quote from @Nik Batra:

I have been doing some due-diligence on apartment syndication deals. From what I have read and heard, a conservative underwriter should project the exit cap rate at least 50 to 200 bps higher than the purchase cap rate. I have however come across a few deals where the sponsor purchased the property at a much higher cap rate (around 7.3) than the market cap rate (around 6.4) and then projected the exit cap rate at around 6.8 (which is higher than the market cap rate but lower than the entry cap rate). Their strategy is mostly value-ad. Would you consider that conservative or aggressive when analyzing a deal from a passive investor standpoint?

Hope that question made some sense.

Nik


Nik, with all due respect to whoever gave you that advice, I disagree.  Entry cap rate is absolutely meaningless.  Participants in the commercial real estate space could do themselves a lot of favors by forgetting entirely the concept of purchase cap rate.

Cap rate has only one useful purpose--and that is to estimate the price in which the property may sell for at a later date.  This has the obvious weakness of the unknown nature of future cap rates, but that's really the heart of your question here.

Estimating future cap rate is part art, part science.  The science part is determining where market cap rates are today.  Sale comps are a good start.  The art part is adjusting today's market cap rate to a future year.  There are a lot of opinions on how to do this--some say adding 50 to 200 bps to today's market cap rate, some say adding 0.1% per year, others say something else.

I suppose that's a good start, but doesn't really account for much.  I'll give you a couple of examples.  When the market was in the toilet after the great financial collapse, multifamily cap rates were in the 6-8% range.  I was forecasting exit cap rates lower than current market cap rates.  The theory: the market would be better when it was time to sell the asset.  A better market meant lower cap rates.  That bet came true.  

Around 2020-2021 it was a seller's market and everything was getting a dozen or more offers.  Cap rates had plummeted into the 4% range for multifamily.  I was forecasting 5-year exit caps around 1% higher than current market cap rates (for perspective, that's a 25% decline in value).  The theory: the market was about as good as it gets, and when it's time to sell, the market will probably be worse.  Turns out the theory was right, but the decline has been even steeper.

You might be able to predict whether a future market will be better or worse than the current one, but predicting how much worse or better is nearly impossible.

And don't even get me started on how sponsors could be manipulating purchase cap rate, whether intentionally or unintentionally, by reporting pro-forma caps, non tax-adjusted NOI, and so on. If a sponsor is touting a 7.3 entry cap in a 6.4 cap market, I'd be digging really deep into how that 7.3 was calculated, and how that 6.4 was substantiated. This math implies that the property is being purchased at a 14% discount to current market value. Certainly not impossible, but the multifamily market (especially for larger properties) is pretty active and below-market purchases, while possible, don't happen as often as they might in the smaller property space.

Pro tip:  If you still like the idea of purchase cap rate, use stabilized yield on cost instead.  I defined that in the Hands-Off Investor.  It's so much more meaningful than cap rate.


do you have a recommended reading list or any books/case studies on underwriting, investing and portfolio management That you’d assign to a class of graduate students. Thank you 

*assumes CA averages for valuation, rent, profitability, et

There are strategies for starting small or starting big, that are discussed but I am not entirely sure what would be like too big for a first deal...

My inclination is to assume that the larger the asset or more units the better, as there is less tenant risk, professional property manager, etc. BUT the larger the deal the harder it becomes to pursue a rehab strategy with meaningful impact on appreciation. 


Question:

How big can a new investor realistically go if they expect to borrow 60-65% on anything above $10M? 

If a lender sees that there is a strategic GP involved and LP capital committed, there shouldnt be any issue with the loan?

Why not try and raise as much capital as possible? Is there any reason why going bigger is bad when leverage is not excessive and underwriting is conservative?

Quote from @Don Konipol:
Quote from @Alex S.:

I am looking for a case study or resource that has various examples of investing from 1 deal in MF to an establised portfolio..

I simply want an illustration of the capital that was compounded over time to the point of creating wealth and spendable income for the owner. 



The Real Estate Game: The Intelligent Guide To Decisionmaking And Investment Hardcover – September 13, 1999 by William J. Poorvu (Author), Jeffrey L. Cruikshank (Author)

 Thank you

I am looking for a case study or resource that has various examples of investing from 1 deal in MF to an establised portfolio..

I simply want an illustration of the capital that was compounded over time to the point of creating wealth and spendable income for the owner.