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All Forum Posts by: JT Spangler

JT Spangler has started 16 posts and replied 260 times.

Post: Need Help

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102

Sorry, man, it's been months now, but I just discovered this subforum. East Nash is my area, so feel free to shoot me a message anytime I can help with something that way.

Post: Need help! My first property is underwater!

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102
Originally posted by @Mike H.:

I've always recommended the same solution when it comes to this kind of scenario and I have to recommend the same thing here again.

But this answer always depends on what you're looking to do.
Do you want to be a buy and hold real estate investor? If yes, then you have two options. If no, then you have one option - put the 30k and get out of that house.

If yes, you want to start building a portfolio, then here are the two logical options in my mind and why I always choose the ladder.

1) Pay the 30k to get out of the house. Now you own nothing. You are saving the 200/mo or so in cash flow though.  But you are getting none of the long term values of holding real estate.

2) Take the 30k and buy another rental that makes at least 200 or 250/mo in net cash flow.  One that you are getting a true investor discount on (i.e. 150k houses that you are all in at 105k to 110k).

Choosing this option, here is what you would have.
1) 2 houses worth 120k and 150k = 270k, that you owe 250k or so on (so plus 20k in equity)

2) Net income of roughly $50 a month or so. (600/yr)

3) Principal paydown of 300/mo or so.  This is also going straight to your net worth. (3600/yr)

4) Appreciation. The assumption is that appreciation should return to normal and historically you can figure 2 to 3% if not more (historically, homes double every 20 years in the non coastal areas).  But even at 2% appreciation, your appreciation would be 2% times 270k or 5,400/yr.

When you add that all up, thats 9,600/yr you're getting from your 30k investment.  Thats a much better return in my mind than a savings of $200/mo.

And here's the other thing. Buy and hold is really about leveraging time as much as anything else. You may only be making $50/a month from these two properties but, over time, rents will go up and your mortgages will stay the same. That rental income is going to grow. Your appreciation will grow as well.  In 10 years,  those houses may be worth 360k total. 2% of that would be 7,200/yr instead of 5,400/yr.  Rental income may be 400/mo total between the two (4,800/hr). And principal paydown (which also goes up every year) may be 400/mo in 10 years (4,800/yr).

So now you're looking 15k a year return on your 30k investment.

And don't forget the tax benefits.  If you're at break even on the cash flow, then you're going to have about 6k a year in depreciation from the two houses so you'll show about a 5k loss that you'll get to offset against your personal income.  

If you're in the 25% tax bracket, that would be another 1,250 a year bump in your tax refund.  

So thats why, for me, the choice is always the same. Keep the house and use the money to add another property that you buy right and the numbers cash flow right.

I actually have a buddy that I met on BP and he had the same question 3 years ago. Most of the people told him to sell and eat the price.  Instead he held on to the house and bought another rental.  The house shot up in value so that it is no longer underwater. But he's getting 400 or 500 in principal paydown (he has a 15 yr mortg on it).  Still doesn't cash flow though.  But he did buy another rental and he's making 700/mo on that one. 

Between the two houses, he's making 700 or 800/mo and getting another 500 or 600 in principal paydown. Plus the appreciation on both.  How will that look in 10 years? in 20 when they're both paid off? 

Doesn't that sound better than having used that money to sell the house and eat the loss? 

Again, I understand it would depend on whether you want to be an investor at all first and foremost. If you don't want to have rentals, then this would not be a good fit. But if you do, then I will always believe that keeping the house is the better way to go.

The one exception I would say is if you have a house that is significantly in the red on the cash flow (i.e losing 300 or 400/mo) and you could get out of it by selling and only having to eat 10 or 15k or something.  Thats where the formula tends to change a bit. The more the losses and the less the out of pocket to dump it, the more it might make sense to sell it.

But in the numbers I'm seeing in your case, your cash flow is not really that bad and your out of pocket is a bit too high.

 Here're my two problems with this recommendation:

1) I think re-allocation is important to any investor, including a buy and hold, which means that it's better to treat each property as its own entity. Is it performing adequately for what you have into it and the market conditions? Great! Keep it. If not, get out and put your money somewhere it'll do some good. In this particular case, there's not much money to get out, since it was zero down. But you are tying up an unbelievably valuable resource: your VA loan. I've been convinced for years that this is the best conventional loan product on the market, and yours is tied up with a property that doesn't cash flow in a market that hasn't rebounded (during a time, by the by, when prices are going crazy in a lot of areas, so much so that many markets it's tricky to even find a deal).

2) Really more of a continuation of #1, I suppose, but the equity paydown isn't terribly useful when you're still underwater. Is your best exit strategy to lose money for ten years on this thing, just so that you'll have it when the market rebounds? That sounds crazy to me. I'd be exploring a refinance to get a lower rate (maybe you have enough equity that you can do it sans PMI and at more like 4%, getting your payment down ~$200/month?), and then I'd be looking for someone to do a lease-purchase deal. You'll still lose money, but hopefully without actually paying out of pocket.


Then you take your VA loan and your 30k down and buy a killer quadplex where you house hack 3 units and live in one.

Remember, the goal of a buy and hold investor isn't to own the most properties; it's to own the best properties. The ones that have equity, friendly debt servicing terms, low maintenance costs, in good areas, that cash flow AT LEAST $100/door monthly. 

My advice is to dump this smoldering crater in your personal portfolio for as little out of pocket as possible and buy a much better deal next time.

You're in North Dakota, yes? While oil prices are in the sub-basement, I bet you can buy some wicked good deals on housing that'll look really good in a year when prices go back above $70/barrel.

Post: Tri-Plex

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102
Originally posted by @Luke G.:

Looking to value a tri-plex I am interested in for the purpose of placing an offer. The triplex is in the 12th South area of Nashville, an area heavily gentrifying. Three one bedroom units totaling 1600 square feet on a sixth of an acre. No central air. Kept up for the most part, but not updated at all. The property is very different from other recently sold or rented properties specifically because it has not been updated.

Anyone familiar with the Nashville area/market:

Thoughts on what the units would rent for? Thoughts on the value of the property?

 Not updated, 700/unit maybe? Nicely updated will get you in the range quoted above (1000/unit). Personally, I love 1 bdrms. I only have one, but because there are so few in Nashville it's easy to rent (thus far!) and a cash cow.

I've been searching high and low for duplexes and tris in Nashville, so I'm very jealous you found one. Good luck! Keep us posted with what you do about it.

Post: Tri-Plex

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102
Originally posted by @Elliott Hallum:

Hi Luke,

You should start coming to the local real estate investing club.

reintn.org

REIN

It's how I got started and I do most all of my deals with this group.

Value multifamily properties based on income approach not comparable sales. Just google it.

If you live in it, you can get great financing from a bank. So much to learn, take care.

 So, you've had good experiences with the REIN? I've been turned off by their emails, because it seems every meeting has someone selling something or a cost to attend. 

Post: Is Moving from LA to another Market a Good Idea?

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102
Originally posted by :

I have to look into Nashville. There are so many cities that I have heard nothing but positive things about and Nashville is one. 

Nashville was a crowded investment market two years ago, and seems to be even more crowded now. I scour the good areas for deals, and mine are all 1% properties that cash flow because I manage the rehab and then property manage (to be fair, they would cash flow if I hired those out, but be much thinner deals). 

Not to talk you out of it, because it's a great city with good growth metrics, and I'm still buying here. But if you're looking for turnkey as an out of towner, I don't know if you'll find a place where the numbers are anything like what you can get in Atlanta or the rust belt.

Post: Music & Money Investors Group Oct 7

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102

Has there been any consideration to meeting occasionally in Nashville? Or at a more musician friendly time? I've never had any meeting or writing session happen before 10am in the musician world. :)

Post: Do your research, learn your market, and follow your instincts

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102
Originally posted by @Luka Milicevic:

In Nashville on decent properties on the MLS your offers have to be made the same day, on good deals they have to be made within the hour they hit the MLS.

 Don't I know it. Although I've actually seen a few decent ones in this particular area recently. 

Post: Do your research, learn your market, and follow your instincts

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102

Sure thing, @Rob Beland, and that's certainly an option I'll consider in the future. But she's been a decent realtor over the past few years, and is also a personal friend, so the scorched earth option isn't where I'd start.

Post: Do your research, learn your market, and follow your instincts

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102

Saw a stupidly good deal come on the MLS (I get listings every day for the last 3 years, and this is rare in my area of Nashville). The listing came in late Friday/early Saturday. I looked at the records online and ran the numbers, but I was already pretty sure it was gonna be a cash cow (in a neighborhood bordering a huge boom, so a major appreciation play as well).

I was out of town, but I told my agent that I wanted to see the place Sunday night when I got back and get a strong offer in Sunday night so they'd see it Monday morning (it's bank-owned, so I knew the offer was everything). 

She convinced me to wait, since she was out of town and the seller wasn't looking at any offers until the 7th (Wednesday). That would give her time to show me the property and me to speak with some HMLs. I grudgingly agreed. 

Yesterday she emailed me to say they'd accepted an offer and the place was under contract. 

That place is going to make someone a pile of money, and I could've made a strong offer before anyone else did.

The lesson: do your research, learn your market, and then trust your instincts.

Post: Where can I find investment properties that meet the 1% rule in Nashville?

JT SpanglerPosted
  • Buy and Hold Investor
  • Nashville, TN
  • Posts 264
  • Votes 102

I see 1% deals all the time, but you need to be focusing on transitional areas like North Nashville and Antioch.