Rent to retirement. Good or bad?

[Daniel Curtin]

Has any used the Rent to Retirement service advertised on various Bigger Pockets podcasts? If so, what is your feedback? Or, even if you haven't used it, what concerns do some of you more experienced investors have? 

[Evan Polaski]

@Daniel Curtin, I have never used R2R or any turnkey provider.  I have owned single family rentals for the last 13 years.

Capex is often the most commonly underestimated expense, specifically, capex reserves. If you plan on buying any property and holding long term, you will need to budget for new roof, new HVAC, new kitchens, etc. Even if you buy a property that was built in 2024, that roof will need replaced, typically in 25 yrs if new. Call it $8k for a new roof. That is $27/mo every month for 25 yrs to have your $8k saved. HVAC 8-10k in 15 yrs = $45-55 per month for 15 years to save that amount. Appliances, flooring, fences, driveways, etc.

Knowing the tenant is key.  I have heard a couple stories (admittedly not a lot) of OOS investors that bought a property with tenant and management in place.  The tenant paid on time each month.  At end of lease term, they left $20k in damages and skipped town. I understand that this is technically possible with just about any property and tenant, but I personally like to meet my tenants and get a sense of who they are during touring and application process.  

Overall, I would really dive into the numbers a lot. What type of area is it?  Bad areas tend to draw bad tenants.  What are you paying for the house versus what are the comps selling for?  Are the quoted market rents reasonable and are rents growing in that area?  It is possible to find lower quality tenants that will pay above market rents due to issues in their background check.  But then you have a headache tenant and are likely to need to drop rents when that tenant leaves.

I would interview the management company on the property and understand how you can terminate them, should you need to.  I would interview other management companies in the area, as well, to understand if you are paying market rates and getting quality service.  Plus, you will likely need to set your own boundaries on what they bring to you vs handle on their own, what your tenant profile and requirements are (will you accept a past eviction?, do you want income 4x monthly rent, instead of more typical 3x?, do you want someone with misdemeanor drug charges on their background)  How do they source contractors for repairs?  Do they use their own team?  How do you confirm they are paying themselves market rates?

As you can tell, I may require more control than others do.  But when I own a property directly, I view it as an active part of my portfolio, but given I am essentially willing to put $25k-$100k + personal liability on a mortgage into a single investment with a single tenant exposure and single point of failure potential, I want to make sure I see all that is going on.  

[Taz Zettergren]

@Daniel Curtin I don't have any experience with them but I've heard positive and negative comments (as you will from any company providing a service) from some of my clients who have worked with them. From my understanding the biggest concern is they don't actually buy the home, renovate it and sell it to the investor. It's more so they find a company who has flipped a home and match that company with a buyer they have created then the refer that buyer to a property management company as well. They are more of a referral source so naturally they can't control some of the things that occur after the transaction. 

There are several companies out there who do own the entire process from start to finish therefore the interest's will have to be mutually aligned. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Best of luck investing! 

[Zach Lemaster]

@Daniel Curtin

Thanks so much for the interest in my company.

This topic has been thoroughly discussed for over a decade on BP. I'll post some forum threads below for you to review that I think would be beneficial.

Rent To Retirement has more 5 star reviews on BP, BBB, trustpilot, etc. than any other company in the TK business. Please make sure to look up the public reputation of any company you are considering working with. I say this confidently because we absolutely do our best to try to set out investors up for success. I've worked very hard over the past decade to build the reputation we have. Furthermore, while we can't control the outcome of every investment (since this is investing after all), we certainly do our best to be involved as problem solvers when issues arise. You will absolutely see that commitment we have to our investors as you search for my company on the BP forums and other sites. A true test of a company is not when everything goes right, but when things don't go 100% according to plan & how they handled it. We certainly stay involved to assist our clients however we can.

It is important when reading responses on BP to understand if there are any ulterior motives or biases in responses as I'm sure you know.

@Taz Zettergren for example is a competitor (which he did not disclose), which would be memphis invest. So clearly there will be some bias in his response. Taz, I'm sure you have better things to do than scour the BP forums to post on every thread where people are asking about my company. I certainly don't have my team doing that every time someone asks about the company you work for. Come on man, be professional. This just isn't good form. I'm sure you guys get enough business through your own marketing, maybe not? Also, if you are going to comment about my company, please do your best to ensure it's accurate. I am probably the best person to speak about how my company operates.

RTR is a national brokerage that diligently researches all US markets to bring the best investment opportunities to our investor community. This is why BP often has me on their podcasts and YT channel as a subject matter expert about market analytics, creative financing, build to rent/new construction, etc. You will see me on multiple podcasts along with their YT channel at least once a month presenting. This is not paid advertising. This is me offering my expertise to the BP community to assist everyone in accomplishing their goals.

RTR also offers some very unique investment options that no other company does that I've seen. We actually work more in the BTR (build to rent) space than TK or anything else as I strongly feel that new construction in growing markets is one of the best investment options available to investors. About 80% of what we do is new construction for both SFRs & MF. We source the best markets & builders across the country to work with, we also do our own in house new construction. We also are the only TK company that offers very unique options like STR (short term rentals) and MTRs (mid term rentals) where we've found that someone can likely achieve a much higher ROI than only focusing on LTRs (long term rentals). I am a partner in a STR mngt company allowing investors to either self manage if they'd like, with our guidance, or have mngt done for them. Additionally, we have very unique financing options available to investors through various lenders such as an investment portfolio loans where someone can buy multiple investment properties with as little as 5% down, a 2.99% seller financed loan, new construction loans, etc. Our goal is to match investors with the best financing options available based on their goals & to coach them through building a successful, sustainable investment portfolio! Lastly, we are also a REI education company with courses and coaching available should someone need more hands-on guidance through our RTR Academy. However, that is not required to invest with us.

While we have an excellent team of real estate professionals, I always make myself available to speak with our investors to help them map out an investing plan. I don't know how many other CEOs of REI companies do that, but I certainly do as that's very important to me. My wife and I are both doctors that retired from our career path in medicine through real estate investing. We are very passionate about helping others accomplish their investing goals and we bring our compassion & bedside manner into our real estate business, which I personally feel is rare in this space!

Ultimately our goal is to always add value to anyone who speaks with our team regardless of your investing background, experience, etc. I've thoroughly trained my team to provide as many resources as possible to anyone that contacts us. Regardless if they are investing with us, our goal is to provide detailed market information, resources such as the best financing options we are aware of, REI specific CPAs, attorneys, 1031 QIs, cost segregation specialists, mngt recommendations, STR/MTR resources, investment calculators, etc.

I hope this long explanation provides a detailed review of how RTR has helped thousands of investors accomplish their goals over the past decade. Our team is absolutely available to answer any specific questions anyone has at any point in time. Don't take my word for it, take some time to read what others are saying.

Here are some links to many other BP forum threads discussing RTR, TK, BTR, financing options, investor wins & challenges, etc.

To your success,

Zach 

---

https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/ZacharyCole/references

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/765347-rent-to-retirement-review

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/1116050-a-huge-win-with-cori-from-rent-to-retirement

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/850/topics/895660-my-first-investment-property-an-out-of-state-deal

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/88/topics/1047543-big-profits-from-new-construction-sfr-build-in-cape-coral-fl

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/983659-first-investment-property-with-rent-to-retirement?highlight_post=5677176&page=1#p5677176

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/12/topics/1122318-quality-turnkey-companies?highlight_post=6413855&page=1

https://www.biggerpockets.com/co/RentToRetirement

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/929410-rent-to-retirement-updates?highlight_post=5508807&page=1#p5508807

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/893621-rent-to-retirement-review?highlight_post=5222888&page=1#p5222888

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/915728-experience-with-rent-to-retirement-turnkey?page=1#p5345200

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/808479-rent-to-retirement-experiences

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/518583-feedback-on-renttoretirement-and-zach-lemaster?highlight_post=6192149&page=4&utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Transactional:%20topic_notification_V2&utm_channel=28426&utm_content=Marketing

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/67/topics/952977-turnkey-in-indianapolis-through-rtr-case-study

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/12/topics/997350-lessons-learned-from-buying-my-first-rental-property?highlight_post=5748036&page=1#p5748036

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/12/topics/533693-anyone-worked-with-renttoretirement-turnkey

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/581730-rent-to-retirement-zach

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/874096-reviews-on-r2r-and-nch?page=1&utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Transactional:%20topic_notification&utm_content=Transactional#p5123754

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/883772-turnkey-investing-renttoretirement-feedback-reviews?highlight_post=5171720&page=1#p5171720

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/950188-rent-to-retirement?page=1&utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Transactional:%20topic_notification&utm_content=Transactional#p5535505

https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/ZacharyCole/references

[Jay Hinrichs]

We have a business relationship with Zach and his providers. And I can tell you from our experience Zach is fully invested in his business and client satisfaction over the long term.

As a Turnkey Brokerage ( and I have done business with everyone of them that are in the market these days and in the past) Zach gives 5 star service.

Keep in mind though this is real estate so you must do your own due diligence etc.  However for a company that is honest and strives for client satisfaction as I said Zach and his team meet and exceed those challenges from what we have experienced. 

[Engelo Rumora]

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

We have a business relationship with Zach and his providers. And I can tell you from our experience Zach is fully invested in his business and client satisfaction over the long term.

As a Turnkey Brokerage ( and I have done business with everyone of them that are in the market these days and in the past) Zach gives 5 star service.

Keep in mind though this is real estate so you must do your own due diligence etc.  However for a company that is honest and strives for client satisfaction as I said Zach and his team meet and exceed those challenges from what we have experienced. 

If Jay say's so, so be it 😁😘

[Dave Foster]

@Daniel Curtin, Same with us and R2R as @Jay Hinrichs.  We've been working with their clients for years.  Very responsive (as you see) and concerned with client satisfaction.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

We have a business relationship with Zach and his providers. And I can tell you from our experience Zach is fully invested in his business and client satisfaction over the long term.

As a Turnkey Brokerage ( and I have done business with everyone of them that are in the market these days and in the past) Zach gives 5 star service.

Keep in mind though this is real estate so you must do your own due diligence etc.  However for a company that is honest and strives for client satisfaction as I said Zach and his team meet and exceed those challenges from what we have experienced. 

If Jay say's so, so be it 😁😘

Engelo your also one of the most sincere in the space and do a great job with your buyers as well from all the deals we have done together.

[Taz Zettergren]

@Zach Lemaster Looks like I touched a nerve when that wasn't my intention. @Daniel Curtin did not just ask about the experience of working with RTR but also "...Or, even if you haven't used it, what concerns do some of you more experienced investors have?" You and I don't know each other and while I am relatively new to being active on BiggerPockets, I've been in the industry for almost 10 years. I am an investor myself and have renovated roughly 300 properties for REI Nation, worked for the management company speaking with residents, spent a short time on the customer service side of the business working with existing clients and their portfolios after purchase and to this point have spoken to close to 6,000 interested investors answering questions about Turnkey real estate in general and REI Nation specifically. Today, I work with over 800 clients assisting them with building out or diversifying their portfolios.

So, I am lucky enough to talk to a lot of investors and have a lot of varied experience under my belt. I wasn't trying to attract business, but answer the man's question. Our owner Chris Clothier has been encouraging me for years to get on BP and share my experience and knowledge and I recently took him up on it. I did exactly what I thought he would do. I answered the question based on what I know and did it without disparaging or talking negatively. I even pointed out that in the service business you will always hear both positives and negatives.

Either way, I hate that you were so offended as that was not my intention. I'm not a fan of the referral industry and you are right about being biased. I've learned enough from Chris to know there are real differences between referral companies and actual Turnkey companies. However, I've also learned from him that he respects you and the business you've built and its clear that you want to jump in and take care of your clients. No malice intended. Outside of that, I stand by the statement that if I ever hear a negative, it's almost always what I stated above.

[Engelo Rumora]

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

We have a business relationship with Zach and his providers. And I can tell you from our experience Zach is fully invested in his business and client satisfaction over the long term.

As a Turnkey Brokerage ( and I have done business with everyone of them that are in the market these days and in the past) Zach gives 5 star service.

Keep in mind though this is real estate so you must do your own due diligence etc.  However for a company that is honest and strives for client satisfaction as I said Zach and his team meet and exceed those challenges from what we have experienced. 

If Jay say's so, so be it 😁😘

Engelo your also one of the most sincere in the space and do a great job with your buyers as well from all the deals we have done together.

Thanks mate,

Love you also 🙏❤️

[Grant McMillan]

Quote from @Taz Zettergren:

@Zach Lemaster Looks like I touched a nerve when that wasn't my intention. did not just ask about the experience of working with RTR but also "...Or, even if you haven't used it, what concerns do some of you more experienced investors have?" You and I don't know each other and while I am relatively new to being active on BiggerPockets, I've been in the industry for almost 10 years. I am an investor myself and have renovated roughly 300 properties for REI Nation, worked for the management company speaking with residents, spent a short time on the customer service side of the business working with existing clients and their portfolios after purchase and to this point have spoken to close to 6,000 interested investors answering questions about Turnkey real estate in general and REI Nation specifically. Today, I work with over 800 clients assisting them with building out or diversifying their portfolios.

So, I am lucky enough to talk to a lot of investors and have a lot of varied experience under my belt. I wasn't trying to attract business, but answer the man's question. Our owner Chris Clothier has been encouraging me for years to get on BP and share my experience and knowledge and I recently took him up on it. I did exactly what I thought he would do. I answered the question based on what I know and did it without disparaging or talking negatively. I even pointed out that in the service business you will always hear both positives and negatives.

Either way, I hate that you were so offended as that was not my intention. I'm not a fan of the referral industry and you are right about being biased. I've learned enough from Chris to know there are real differences between referral companies and actual Turnkey companies. However, I've also learned from him that he respects you and the business you've built and its clear that you want to jump in and take care of your clients. No malice intended. Outside of that, I stand by the statement that if I ever hear a negative, it's almost always what I stated above.

@Taz Zettergren 

No one is dumb here. Your intention is solely to attempt to drive business your way instead of to RTR & to do this in a misleading way by inappropriately describing RTR & subtly promoting your team in a thread where someone is specially asking about RTR. It's not a coincidence that the majority of the recent posts about RTR you are there commenting in a negative way. Again, just poor form. You don't see RTR on here self promoting every time someone asks about REI. No one from RTR is hijacking forum threads mentioning how REI only has 4 reviews on BP while RTR has 226, or how REI has 4 complaints on BBB with 0 positive reviews, while RTR has 25 5-star reviews with 0 complaints. No one at RTR is sharing their opinion about your business, or bringing up old negative BP posts like this: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/791153-turnkey-real-estate-negative-memphis-invest-review-long.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @Taz Zettergren:

@Zach Lemaster Looks like I touched a nerve when that wasn't my intention. @Daniel Curtin did not just ask about the experience of working with RTR but also "...Or, even if you haven't used it, what concerns do some of you more experienced investors have?" You and I don't know each other and while I am relatively new to being active on BiggerPockets, I've been in the industry for almost 10 years. I am an investor myself and have renovated roughly 300 properties for REI Nation, worked for the management company speaking with residents, spent a short time on the customer service side of the business working with existing clients and their portfolios after purchase and to this point have spoken to close to 6,000 interested investors answering questions about Turnkey real estate in general and REI Nation specifically. Today, I work with over 800 clients assisting them with building out or diversifying their portfolios.

So, I am lucky enough to talk to a lot of investors and have a lot of varied experience under my belt. I wasn't trying to attract business, but answer the man's question. Our owner Chris Clothier has been encouraging me for years to get on BP and share my experience and knowledge and I recently took him up on it. I did exactly what I thought he would do. I answered the question based on what I know and did it without disparaging or talking negatively. I even pointed out that in the service business you will always hear both positives and negatives.

Either way, I hate that you were so offended as that was not my intention. I'm not a fan of the referral industry and you are right about being biased. I've learned enough from Chris to know there are real differences between referral companies and actual Turnkey companies. However, I've also learned from him that he respects you and the business you've built and its clear that you want to jump in and take care of your clients. No malice intended. Outside of that, I stand by the statement that if I ever hear a negative, it's almost always what I stated above.

Taz as you may know Chris and I and a few other BP members did the home give away in Memphis (A heros home . Org) I along with a few of the others and BP  raised the money and Chris and his team delivered the house that we gave to the Veteran .. Was very proud of the team and the mission.

That said what in your mind is different with referral companies IE Brokers that specialize in selling product out of state in a very narrow niche and a RE Broker/agent working in the city selling the same product ??? They are both brokers and are both putting buyer and seller together.  Just interested in your thoughts on the matter.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Taz Zettergren:

@Zach Lemaster Looks like I touched a nerve when that wasn't my intention. @Daniel Curtin did not just ask about the experience of working with RTR but also "...Or, even if you haven't used it, what concerns do some of you more experienced investors have?" You and I don't know each other and while I am relatively new to being active on BiggerPockets, I've been in the industry for almost 10 years. I am an investor myself and have renovated roughly 300 properties for REI Nation, worked for the management company speaking with residents, spent a short time on the customer service side of the business working with existing clients and their portfolios after purchase and to this point have spoken to close to 6,000 interested investors answering questions about Turnkey real estate in general and REI Nation specifically. Today, I work with over 800 clients assisting them with building out or diversifying their portfolios.

So, I am lucky enough to talk to a lot of investors and have a lot of varied experience under my belt. I wasn't trying to attract business, but answer the man's question. Our owner Chris Clothier has been encouraging me for years to get on BP and share my experience and knowledge and I recently took him up on it. I did exactly what I thought he would do. I answered the question based on what I know and did it without disparaging or talking negatively. I even pointed out that in the service business you will always hear both positives and negatives.

Either way, I hate that you were so offended as that was not my intention. I'm not a fan of the referral industry and you are right about being biased. I've learned enough from Chris to know there are real differences between referral companies and actual Turnkey companies. However, I've also learned from him that he respects you and the business you've built and its clear that you want to jump in and take care of your clients. No malice intended. Outside of that, I stand by the statement that if I ever hear a negative, it's almost always what I stated above.

Taz, to Zach's point; you chimed in without and disclosure of whom you are, you involvement in the industry and positioning as competitor's to whatever degree. 

Zach, to Taz's point; I think there is legitimacy to what he raised, long that's been my 1 critical point on R2R, that the nature of the operations seems to be rather.... opaque. Because reality is most consumers in the TK space come with an assumption that one presenting as a TK company is the one who own's the property, did the reno, did/does all the things, internally, no affiliation etc etc. I get the reasoning for this opaqueness, I simply disagree, I think you could stand on your operational difference as a strength, because it can be, vs fear of negative connotations. 

That said, I STRONGLY don't believe, nor do I see with many MANY years experience in this, crossing path's with BOTH companies over the years, that 1 system is "right" or "wrong". They are simply different. I have seen advantages and disadvantages to each. Again, reinforcing "just different".    If anything I lean towards R2R's model in preference, because one doing things "in-house, is still generally just contracting things, which is doing similar isn't it, relying on vendors for the various aspect's, and only as good as those vendors. So one who focuses from onset, makes sense to me. And it diminishes over-head, makes for more diversity in operational footprint, speed to pivot, market shift as market's shift to stay in the "bulls-eye" of market of the moment. 

All that said, that's literally my 1 and only critical point on Zach and R2R. For me, in my world, that speaks volumes. I can be a hard pr#ck to please, lol. 

Both have built a significant operation, a feat that is far from simple and is rather rare, the vast majority of TK companies are BS or scams to to some degree, and both have achieved a place in the industry only possible via a certain level of delivery. I will leave mud flinging to others. 

For myself Daniel; as I said above that's my 1 critique of R2R. Zach is, and has shown, to be very "on-the-ball", responsive, and as said he's there when things go sideways and that IS a very big deal, in my opinion it's arguably the biggest of deals. People can say anything, but what they do, that's where we see the character show through. 

The only other negative I have is on TK (Turn Key) in general, which isn't mine per say it's the 1 I hear and see most often. It's the argument that it's "over-priced" vs finding a property on one's own, doing a reno on one's own, getting it monetized, on one's own..... And all this I file under the "DUH!" category. Because OF COURSE TK is more, your getting MORE. That's the whole point of TK, someone else has done ALL that, and is delivery it to you, the investor, on a silver platter. Delivering REI in fact, not theory. Buying a property for REI, on own, most facet's are theory and the work is converting it all into fact. Keyword WORK.     TK, if done RIGHT, is delivering REI-FACT. That hold's value. 

Now, is TK right for everyone? Of course not. That's the DD of the individual to decide, what fit's for YOU, in your unique situation, the "worth-it" question. And in this world of REI, the failure rate of new investors IS monumental, with the vast majority of those failures avoidable as they come from almost universally failures in either analysis or operations. Good TK addresses that, so with that solving the biggest failure potentials. I'd say that's a value point for a great many.

Disclosure of self: I am not a TK operator. I am not an active client or affiliate of either. I have been affiliated, many years past, with both via previous entities, in degrees of buying from and selling to/with. I was "Oz" in these instances. 

If considering R2R, I say just talk with them. Ask the questions. Decide if it's a fit FOR YOU, because end of day that's all that matters, what's applicable to you. 

[Engelo Rumora]

This is getting hot and I'm getting the popcorn lol

Two of the biggest turnkey providers getting into a bit of "argy bargy".

Then again, a bit of "argy bargy" on the forum is good for business hehe

I've been sleeping for the last few years and back now looking for an argument hehe

I might need to piss off one of our investors lol

Jokes...

Play nice guys and keep being great.

[Chris Clothier]

@Jay Hinrichs,

I'm going to jump on here real quick to answer your question.  I am a huge influence on my team as should be expected and this point is a big one with me.  I have spoken extensively with Taz and other team members on this so I am sure I am heavily influential on this own personal biases.  On that note, if I speak with an investor about RTR, especially when they are torn between them and other companies, even my own, this is one of their concerns. I am not shy about it on BP and routinely point out the differences between Turnkey promotional companies earning referrals and Turnkey operating companies who earn on the goods and services they provide.

What you described in your question is different than most turnkey promoters and different than rent to retirement. Perhaps there is a company out there actually operating as a brokerage. They are actual real estate companies and they are not spending a lot of time here on BP building TK business. A broker, acting as a broker under the guidelines of regulatory agencies, acting with the knowledge that they have a duty and responsibility bound by their licensing and being paid a traditional brokerage fee with full disclosure on the HUD of the amount is perfectly fine and there is no difference. In-state, out-of-state, doesn't matter, there is nothing wrong with that set up. I've yet to speak with the owner of any promotional company that operates in that capacity.

They instead operate in a referral capacity for a fee - and often a higher fee than traditional 3% for actually representing a buyer and being bound by the license.   There are some in this space who also add to the price of a deal if they see room to earn even higher fees where possible.  You yourself used to rail against this activity and posted here on BP about it all the time.  People representing themselves and doing activities held out for agents and brokers even though they were either not acting in that capacity or were not licensed to begin with.  That type of activity proliferates this industry and I've been pretty vocal about the dangers that poses for investors.

Does that mean that people are doing nefarious things or bad things?  Absolutely not, but every investor should see the red flags and consider their alternatives before moving forward.  They should also make sure that whomever they are talking to is acting as a broker with a signed contract spelling out what they are responsible for.  That is the point of acting as a licensed agent to begin with.

The job of these promotional companies is to be transparent and make sure investors know they are not impartial.  They have specific operators and deals that they will get paid a referral fee on and they want you to buy those deals.  Doesn't mean they are bad or doing anything wrong.  It just means they don't take any risk.  They are simply connecting a seller who will pay them a fee with a buyer who trusts what they tell them.  

Always love connecting with you here on BP - look forward to hearing if you now feel differently about the topic.  Take care

[Vadim F.]

Quote from @Daniel Curtin:

Has any used the Rent to Retirement service advertised on various Bigger Pockets podcasts? If so, what is your feedback? Or, even if you haven't used it, what concerns do some of you more experienced investors have? 

 I have not used any TK provider to acquire any of my properties. However I looked into the numbers for expenses some of these TK providers provide and they don't make much sense. Some are budgeting 3% for capex/repairs but in reality that should be at least 10%. As an example, if you are you are renting a home for $1kmo, are you really just going to put away $30mo? It may be ok if the property you are getting has a brand new roof, furnace, and HWT, but 99% of the time if its still in good operating condition no one will replace those. 

The other thing is how they calculate your return. See the image I uploaded and see if that makes sense? They are projecting a CoC return of 30% over 30yrs based off certain factors. But if you break it all down yourself, its a negative CoC return and you are losing $......yes there are tax benefits, loan paydown, etc. but that still doesn't make up for the fact you are profiting 0, especially if you are investing in a cash flow market

In the end, if you are just looking for places to park $$$ for the long term it may work out, but if you are looking to make an annual return on the money you put in there may be better ways of doing it.

Just my 2cents on this, I'm not a big time investor like some of these guys and they are a successful for a reason.

[Nicholas L.]

@Evan Polaski

@James Hamling

just wanted to give you guys 1000 votes each, you are giving out on the forums what people elsewhere pay for...

[Chris Clothier]

@James Hamling,

Point well taken and if anything, my advice to Taz going forward is to use best practice and let people know who you are and why you're posting on that thread. He is as genuine as they come when it comes to adding value now where you can and reaping the rewards later.  And has forgotten more about the ins and outs of what passive investors need to look for than most know.  Appreciate the input.

[Dave Foster]

@Engelo Rumora, Argy Bargy..???  That's Awesome!!!!!  I'm using this phrase with my son who's working down under right now. 

[Engelo Rumora]

Quote from @Dave Foster:

@Engelo Rumora, Argy Bargy..???  That's Awesome!!!!!  I'm using this phrase with my son who's working down under right now. 

haha, love it mate.

Yep, it's Aussie slang for anyone that get's into a minor disagreement or "scuffle" hehe

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Nicholas L.:

@Evan Polaski

@James Hamling

just wanted to give you guys 1000 votes each, you are giving out on the forums what people elsewhere pay for...

I really appreciate that Nicholas. 

And if any have found great appreciation in my effort's here, and want to do something really great above and beyond the up votes (much appreciated always), something that would absolutely warm my heart is if look up the "Polar Plunge" and pledge for team "CAPYBARA".
It is my daughters team. 
It is 100% charity, going to the Special Olympics. 
Really REALLY proud Dad, my "tween" said "Hey, I'd like to do this, what do you think?". What a kid! 

Hoping no links and 100% charity cause isn't crossing lines of advertising or what-not. 

[Adam Laurenzo]

@Daniel Curtin I actually own an RTR property. Or, you know, a property I bought using RTR's guidance. Considering a second one. Happy to chat.

[Chris Clothier]

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

This is getting hot and I'm getting the popcorn lol

Two of the biggest turnkey providers getting into a bit of "argy bargy".

Then again, a bit of "argy bargy" on the forum is good for business hehe

I've been sleeping for the last few years and back now looking for an argument hehe

I might need to piss off one of our investors lol

Jokes...

Play nice guys and keep being great.

 Ha!  I think you might be a trouble maker!

This is no argy bargy.  I equate this more to my Maltese yapping like crazy at my Bernese Mountain dog every time he comes within 10 feet of their food.  Not a whole lot for him to do unless they really make it personal, lol!

Put your popcorn away because for now I am exercising the Lincoln Leadership method.  I've typed my response and tucked it away in my proverbial drawer.  I'll wait a few days, think it over, get centered and take advice and if I think its still worth posting or needs to be posted, then I'll post it.  If it needs to be changed, I'll change it and if it needs to be deleted, I'll delete it and move on.

One thing it won't be is flippant, emotionally charged, personal or attacking.  It'll be fact based and I'll list the receipts.  I've been defending the true Turnkey industry since before you joined BiggerPockets and I take the responsibility of doing that for so long seriously.  I don't post often, but when I do I try to say something that helps others and moves the conversation.   I want to be patient in case there's no need to argy bargy. 

So, we'll see.  

For those wondering what true Turnkey is, it is what Engelo and I both do along with a few other companies and operators that I truly respect.  We own the process, the result and the fallout.  Good or bad, the buck stops with us.  There are no third party renovation companies to point fingers at, no outside management companies to blame.  Just us.   We don't make you sign waivers and try to silence our critics.  We know we bring value and are attracting our ideal clients.  There are plenty of other ways to operate "Turnkey", but as an old school entrepreneur, I stand by my definition of what it means to be a true Turnkey company.  

Engelo, I look forward to our paths crossing and breaking bread again.  Be on the lookout for another message maybe even thread on entrepreneurship and recognizing your blind spots.  I think it's time for newer entrepreneurs to read about what it means and how to respond on BP when someone shines a light in them.  You are one of the best at knowing your worth and owning as positives what others see as negatives.

Stay well and quit causing trouble!  -  

[Engelo Rumora]

Quote from @Adam Laurenzo:

@Daniel Curtin I actually own an RTR property. Or, you know, a property I bought using RTR's guidance. Considering a second one. Happy to chat.

Haha, trouble always finds me mate 🙏

It's always a pleasure receiving a reply from you mate and reading your long A$$ posts... 😁

You are a classy guy, true gentleman and great entrepreneur.

I love what you said here -  "I've typed my response and tucked it away in my proverbial drawer. I'll wait a few days, think it over, get centered and take advice and if I think its still worth posting or needs to be posted, then I'll post it. If it needs to be changed, I'll change it and if it needs to be deleted, I'll delete it and move on."

My beautiful mother would always tell me in Croatian "Son, the morning is always 'smarter' than the evening. Wait till tomorrow"

What you say above reminds of this quote also:
“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.”
― Blaise Pascal


Meditation saved me and made me calmer, controlled and more empathetic. And many problems indeed can be solved by sitting in a room alone lol 

Looking forward to your message and it would be pleasure meeting with you in person one day again 🙏👍

[Cj Powderhorn]

@Daniel Curtin

Wow! If you'd like an opinion from a simple, bogan investor who doesn't own any major company but has received great advice from many listed above...

I believe Zach has incredible patience and will do whatever he can to stand behind his products. I was under contract with RTR and ended up canceling my contract, but my friend who went UC at the same time did continue. We both ended up satisfied. She had lots of frustrations but I can tell you that Zach made it more than right - which is what everyone wants from a TK provider!

I ended up buying a small, older, MF in CC that I am probably going to sell now. I did receive rental income for the entire 2 years that my friend was waiting for her new construction to be completed. The realtor I used is now involved with yet another FL NC venture.  I bought an older property with a new, permitted roof which exceeded the requirements at the time-and the storms haven't impacted me. When I was buying, concerns were the quality of new construction, the timeline fluctuations and cost increases. Even when I sell it for a small profit, it will still cash flow for the next owner. 

In Memphis, I've always and only used MSHB (Terry Kerr's company) or done things on my own. I understand their pricing and do think the TK additional expenses are worth it, but I've been investing with them for almost 20 years so I've got lots of experience with their PM side as well. They are pricier than doing it yourself, but I think they earn it. I'm buying one of their NC homes in Little Rock right now. I don't want the headaches and I know I can trust them based on my own experience.

Now, I am probably going to sell the SWFL property and 1031 it to Ohio! During covid, I invested in several syndications which have also been hit or miss.  I am definitely more of a wombat than a roo in the game of real estate but I've never felt over-extended financially and that's what worked best for me.

Good luck with whatever decision you make - I would reach out directly to individuals who have posted here. I've had quite a few people contact me via email and have always been happy to help them. Anyone extremely polarized, especially in a negative directions usually is going to complain about everything. If you need a few individuals to contact directly, feel free to reach out and I'll connect you.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Cj Powderhorn:

@Daniel Curtin

"...I was under contract with RTR and ended up canceling my contract, but my friend who went UC at the same time did continue...."

"....entire 2 years that my friend was waiting for her new construction to be completed."

2 years to build!?! 

What was the type of unit that it took 2 years to complete the build? Had to be more then ~40 units, right?     I have done 24-plex's that didn't take anywhere near 2 years. Only builds where we were in the hundred's of unit's, community builds, ever came close to that kind of timeline.