A Little Bit Of Knowledge Can Be Dangerous!

A Little Bit Of Knowledge Can Be Dangerous!

Real Estate Investor · Delray Beach, FL · Member since 2008 · 36 posts · 3 votes

So many people are scared of what is going on in our economy because of what they are told by others. Yet, they really don’t understand what is making our economy tick. I recently received an ‘economic update’ from my financial advisor and it raised some very interesting information (Source: CIBC World Markets). I completely understand that some people are knowledge junkies, and others only care about the end result. I also understand that people have different learning styles, and grasp information to different extents and levels of clarity. I’ve taken much of the information that I just received from my advisor and tried to clarify/simplify why the fears and panic of many people today are unfounded. Furthermore, there is much hope coming our way very soon.

Many people compare our current economic condition to the Great Depression. However the early 1930’s was very different (in many ways). Almost 10,000 U.S. banks went bankrupt and the unemployment rate surpassed 25%. The supply of money decreased by 30% and so the entire economy actually decreased in it’s total size.

Our current situation is different in many ways. The unemployment rate is only 6.5%, the entire economy only declined by less than 0.5% in 2008, the supply of money is still increasing, and there are many new insurance programs to protect depositors’ funds.

Now, there have also been comparisons between our current economic situation to those of Japan. Japan is now fighting their 5th recession in 15 years. Many have said that our economic situation is not unlike Japan at the moment. The current economic crisis is similar in some ways to what Japan experienced in the early 1990’s, however the (government) policy response is very different.

After the 1989 Japanese equity market crash, the Bank of Japan continued to raise rates. It actually took over 5 years for the government there to cut rates to 1%. The U.S. Federal Reserve board cut rates immediately (here) when it realized that the markets were in trouble.

It took Japan over 6 years to launch their economic bailout, while ours is already being implemented, along with many other policy tools that were not available to the bank of Japan.

Conclusion 1: Nobody can deny that we are amid a difficult economic slowdown, but it certainly is not another great depression. Thanks to the many policies and initiatives launched by our government, we are not heading for the same troubles seen in Japan. The global economic recession is already 12 months old. It appears to the experts that we will remain in tough times for the first 6 months of 2009. However, current and future stimulus activity will provide for an economic recovery, which is likely to show signs of turnaround in the second half of 2009, with solid economic performance in 2010.

Conclusion 2: Many people live in fear because of what they hear in the media, while others chase ‘get-rich-quick’ schemes, or do what everybody else appears to be doing (eg. stop spending and hold on to every penny they have). In the great gold rush, the majority rushed out with shovels to dig for their own gold, hoping (either out of panic for recovery and/or sheer greed) to strike it rich with their own found gold. The people who made fortunes during that time (without having specialized knowledge, skills, or panic) were not the people who were lucky enough to dig in the right place and strike gold (which by the way were few and far between). They were the people selling the millions of shovels.

Summary: Last year many investors asked me about investing in real estate in regions like south Florida. When I told them they could acquire properties at $0.40 cents on the dollar, they hesitated. They were always worried that if they waited longer, they could still get a better deal, and knowing that they could have got a better deal would bother them.

Now, with all indications that the market is close to the bottom (in many areas), people still seem afraid to invest their money until the majority of other people (and the media) say that the troubles are all over and it’s okay to part with your money. Fact is, by the time that happens, the prices are already going up. That (the price increases) is obviously one of the justifications that the media would have for releasing such a statement.

Where are the people now who fear that if they wait to long to start investing, they might pay more for a property, than if they bought sooner, while the prices were at an all-time low? That time is now folks! There is a very popular saying that all of the professional real estate investors say: “You make money in real estate when you BUY … not when you SELLâ€. When you buy, you negotiate the best price, and that determines how much room you have for capital appreciation.

Buying investment properties now is like stocking up on your shovels. When the country starts buying real estate and renting places to live, you want to have the inventory and meet their demand. Don’t forget – demand is what drives up prices (profits)!

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  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    17y

    I think your observations are on target. But I do think this current recession is deeper than you indicate:

    "The unemployment rate is only 6.5%, the entire economy only declined by less than 0.5% in 2008"

    Last quarter and this quarter we are definately recessing, and unemployment numbers (like foreclosures) will grow before they expand again.

    That said, I agree that we are near the bottom.

    What have you bought? What are you buying now?

  • Real Estate Investor · Delray Beach, FL · Member since 2008 · 36 posts · 3 votes
    17y

    Hi Jon,

    thanks for your reply.

    I currently am investing in a niche market in Philadelphia. I'm not in Philly, but I have several properties there near Temple University that are cash-flowing very well, and appreciating from what I paid for them (even during 2008).
    I actually have one for sale there, so I can use the cash for another property.
    The property for sale is all rehabbed - brand new condition inside, and ready to tenant. It is a few blocks from the university. Rental income (4 rooms) is $1600/mo on that street, and it will cash flow for a new buyer, even with a mortgage.

    What is your focus and where do prefer right now?

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Michael Shuster:
    Now, with all indications that the market is close to the bottom (in many areas),
    I'm not so sure. There is a very good chance most areas are still in for a price decline. Time will tell, but trying to time any market is foolhardy. I'm not so sure that is the case. The smart investors are buying. But, they are very selective in their purchases and buying at steep discounts. There is no doubt the bottom will only be accurately called through hindsight.


    Prices are reverting to the mean. They have done it several times in our history. I don't think we are on the verge of any kind of return to appreciation of property above the inflation rate for a long time. Cash flow is the only thing that is going to matter to smart investors for some time. There are some opportunities to buy property and increase its value, but it will come from some kind of action. The times of buying now, hold for awhile and then selling for a much higher price are gone. And they won't be back any time soon.

    True, as long as you are buying at the right prices. I hate to burst your optimistic bubble, but boom times are not just around the corner.

    We have been through...

    The tech bubble;
    The stock market bubble;
    The credit bubble;
    The housing bubble;

    We are just entering the government bubble and when it pops, and it will, things are going to get really interesting if you are prepared, scary as hell if you aren't.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2008 · 553 posts · 20 votes
    17y

    Michael,
    Taz,

    In my opinion you both raise valid points.

    Still I'm leaning towards Taz on this one.

    Everything I'm reading is pointing to another 20% depreciation in many markets.

    I like the optimism Michael however I don't see the improvements coming for 2-3 years.

    Michael Just out of curiosity who is your IA?

    I'm getting my info mostly from;

    John Mouldin
    Peter Shiff
    Mortgage news daily
    MBA

    Regards,

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    17y

    Guys -
    Lets not forget what the Unemployment Rate measures:

    According to Robert Schenk, PHd in Economics:

    So, lots of folks are excluded from that number. If you're not looking for a job anymore, you're not "unemployed." If your UI benefits have run out, you're not "unemployed."

    Anyone want to venture a guess on the true unemployment number?

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:
    Anyone want to venture a guess on the true unemployment number?
    Currently, it is hovering at about 17%. It will be closer to 20% by the third quarter.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    17y

    Ouch! I knew it was higher than the stated number, for the reasons Josh lists. But I didn't realize it was that high. Didn't unemployment hit 25% during the great depression? The claim is that is much lower now. OTOH, the pundits are saying we hope to keep it below 10% as the recession unrolls. If real and official are that far apart, we could be very close to a great recession number. Any idea of how the measurement was done back then? Do you have a source for those numbers, Taz?

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    Yes, the peak was 24.9% in 1933. Back then they did not exclude those who had quit looking or never started looking from the numbers. Today, anyone who is no longer looking for a job is not part of the work force.

    Also, that approximately 17% number does not include any measure of those who are under-employed.

    That 17% number comes from using the data from the US labor department. All you have to do is add back in the excluded categories that should not be excluded.

  • Carpenter · Richmond, VA · Member since 2008 · 33 posts · 0 votes
    17y

    I have never been considered "Happy Go-Lucky", but I honestly believe everything is going to be fine.

    I remember when the bailout came (which I wasn't a fan of) right on its heels was $630 billion that was being sent to the war. So everyone is right when we say that the Government is spending way too much.

    I do believe that the economy will even out. As Michael said, we are NOT Japan...get off that. It is not 1929...get off of that.

    Lets live our lives to the best standards possible (which is why most are in the RE game regardless.) and we know that doesn't always include money.

    I was homeless for a spell (messed up as a renter, thought everything was down the drain, made bad decisions when things weren't as bad as they seemed.) When I finally calmed down, thought everything thru, I found a guy who wasn't really amped to rent to me, but he gave me a chance. All this was in the middle of the recession and depression talks.

    Instead of seeing these times as a "mark of the end" I see it as a time to evaluate ourselves, not based on money, but on life goals. It is a time to take things in as they unfold.

    As I said before, Im not happy go lucky, but I dont think the world is going to end. I work for the employment commission in my state, so trust me I see it first hand what is going on, but totalling everything up, I think we'll be just fine.

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    Oh, I don't think the world or even this country is going to end. These times represent some of the best opportunities of real serious hard core investors we have seen in decades.

    However, the next few years are going to be very hard and the changes coming out of the current economic situation will be very long lasting and not too pleasant for those who always live on the edge.

    These are the rainy days your grandmother told you to save for. :D

  • Real Estate Investor · StL, MO · Member since 2008 · 294 posts · 152 votes
    17y

    Michael, I would suggest your own advice back to you. Your advisor is cherry-picking data from 70+ years ago (after the fact) and applying what works (and ignoring what doesn't work) exactly right now in their scenarios. Remember, nobody gets paid if you don't have your money invested.

    I second Taz's saying that unemployment is much higher than reported, although I thought it was around 15% but I did not look through the latest numbers-either way it's higher than they report on the news and it will be pushing 20% soon enough.

    Here's my investment advice for you to think about: (regarding stocks & bonds as there's plenty of good RE advice here) Currently what the government wants is for you to do 1 of 2 things:
    1. Don't save-thus the interest rates at 0%.
    2. If you do save, invest in risky assets-thus government bond rates so low, they want you to invest in stocks and bonds in corporations.

    So to summarize the US Government is telling you (and forcing the situation to make it so) your best options are to spend all your money and take risks with any savings/investments you insist on having.

    What does that make you think the appropriate thing to do right now is?

    I'm taking the other side of the government's 'investment advice', I've sold all my stocks (including REITs) and I'm currently 80% cash, 20% government backed bonds due in less than 1 year (7%+ Goldman Sachs bonds) and adding to cash reserves to be ready for opportunities. Investment advisors don't make much money on my strategy. I did recently purchase my first rental property so I'm both cashing out and going all in. Personally I'm looking for another 30% drop in the stock market before tossing my hat back in there OR enough time goes by that this gets worked out and risk isn't so high. Know your time frame and risk profile.

    Good luck and you are right in that people need to do their own due diligence.

  • Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    I do believe that the country as we know it is going to end. I'm not saying that we will change the name of the country or that the Chinese will land their army here. What I'm saying is that our current economy and our current way of life is a giant ponzi scheme that is close to falling. We can't continue to support the 20+ percent of our population that is too lazy to work. We can not continue to promise everything to everyone with an aging population of peak earners. Fewer workers can not support an increasing base of retired social security recipients; universal healthcare; bailouts to businesses that are too big to fail; and handouts to the lazy. It's a mathematical impossibility and this ponzi scheme is going to crash.

    Hopefully, when this house of cards comes tumbling down, the people will revolt and DEMAND a return to sanity. However, for that to happen, we need to experience some REAL PAIN, and so far the pain hasn't even reached the level of a paper cut.

    Mike

  • Real Estate Investor · North Carolina · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 483 votes
    17y

    Taz:

    I believe you have coined a phrase, and a very good phrase it is: "The Government Bubble".

    If you would expand that into book form I predict you will have a bestseller, and I will happily order an advance copy.

    Seriously, think about it.

  • Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Nc Mark:
    Taz:

    I believe you have coined a phrase, and a very good phrase it is: "The Government Bubble".

    If you would expand that into book form I predict you will have a bestseller, and I will happily order an advance copy.

    Seriously, think about it.
    Interesting you mention that. I have been working on a writeup on the government bubble for the members at the field guide. There is a lot of background information needed to understand what is going on with this latest bubble and why it will end for the exact same reason all of the previous bubbles ended.

    A book, huh? There is easily enough material gathered already.

    But, I turned down a book deal last year. I almost signed it. The one thing that stopped me was a successful book requires a book tour. I promised my son after my wife, his mom, died in 2007 I would not do any extensive travel for "work" at least until he was off to college. We tried but there was no way to do a book tour without extensive time scheduled on the road.

    So, I will have to be contented with it being available to field guide members. Parts of it will probably end up on my blog too.

  • Real Estate Investor · North Carolina · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 483 votes
    17y

    Taz:

    With all respect, a succesful book will stand or fall on its own merits. Yes, a book tour will help initial sales (temporarily), but a good book with legs will continue to sell long after. Like movies, it is word of mouth that ultimately sells books.

    I cannot see a reputable agent and/or publisher absolutely insisting that you participate in a book tour. I will bet several of your own favorite authors have not done so.

    Since "[t]here is easily enough material gathered already" it seems that this would be a simple exercise.

    And while you may think John T. Reed has a high opinion of himself, I believe his alternative business model of publishing his own books is profitable.

    In any event I respect your priorities, and admit that my wish to read your book is for purely selfish reasons.

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