My first BRRRRR project

My first BRRRRR project

Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes

Hi all, I wanted to share my experience with my first project as a real estate invest

or.

I am 30 years old and live in Edmonton Alberta with my wife and three kids (2,4,5), I am a land surveyor and just starting my life as a real estate investor.

It started with a book; you know the one. Rich Dad Poor Dad. That led to many other books and then to bigger pockets. After I felt I knew enough to get started (I think a couple of years) I decided to lean into my strong areas. Being a construction worker and a handy guy, I decided to buy something that I could work on to force appreciation. Then I would rent it out and refinance it, in short BRRRR.

My wife has been looking after the kids full time since our first was born, but fortunately we were able to save some money. I did alright at playing with the stock market but hated it. After about 8 years of luck with the stock market and saving some money here and there we had $40,000 which we decided to use as a down payment for our first rental house. Any further costs from renovating would come out of our line of credit. Then the hope was that at the end of the renos we could re-finance the house and pay off our line of credit. Whatever house we found would have to be $200,000 so that we could put a 20% down payment on it.

I bought a house in NE Edmonton (a not so savory area, but an area on an upswing) that was in need of some major repairs. It was exactly $200,000. This place had tarps on the roof, holes in the floor a 60-year-old furnace and so much more. As a Land Surveyor I do a lot of CAD drafting, so I drafted a model of the house in perfect scale and came up with a detailed sketch of what I wanted the house to look like. I really geeked out on this part, I had every foot of wire, every plumbing fitting, every drywall patch labeled and accounted for. Then it was time to start the spread sheets. I really geeked out. All of this planning actually happened during the closing process and before I had possession. This worked to my benefit because I really got to wrap my head around the project before I started any work.

I got possession in Novembe

r 2020 and began work. I gutted the kitchen and bathroom. I ripped out all of the existing electrical throughout the house. I had an electrician upgrade the power from a 40-amp service to a 200-amp service, this would give me room to develop it into a duplex later (the next phase of my plan). I had the furnace replaced. I re-shingled the roof. I designed and built an Ikea kitchen with a double layer of upper cabinets, 30” uppers with glass doors and 15” upper uppers on top of them, an island and all built in appliances. I had granite countertops put in. I tiled the backsplash and tub surround. I replaced the floors with luxury vinyl plank, I replaced all the doors, and all the trim. Lastly, I painted the place. This all took quite a while as I have a 50-60 hour a week job during the summer months and I tried to do all the work myself. Each thing I took on was a new experience and each time it was scary at first, then I would research how to do it. Then all I had to do was buy the supplies and execute on what I had just learned. After each part was completed, I was amazed, I did it, and it even looks alright.

Doing the work was fun, scary, boring, and satisfying at different parts, but the part I was truly nervous for was coming. I didn’t know anyone in real estate who could validate my ideas or progress, I didn’t have any second opinions and I didn’t have any promises that this would even work. I was not sure if the bank would refinance the house. I had confidence in the house as a valuable asset but it was only my best guess as to what it was worth, and if the project was a success.

So here are the numbers. I bought it for $200,000 with a $40,000 down payment. The reno cost (there was next to no labor charges) was $44,600 and the holding costs from November 2020 to August 2021 were $9,500 (mortgage, insurance, utilities, interest on line of credit). I did not have $500 available to me in any form of credit by the end… It was pretty grim, but it was time to rent it out. I screened the tenants scrupulously and found a great couple. They moved in September 2021, and pay $1,450 a month and all the utilities. In November 2021 I went to the bank to refinance and was approved! They sent out an appraiser and assessed the house to be worth $300,000! The whole thing worked! BRRRR really works! We have the house, rental income, and we got a cheque for $79,000 from the bank.

I did not waste a minute. I started drawing up plans for the basement right away. I put together all of my pictures, spread sheets, drawings, receipts and closed the folder on my first real estate project.

Now I am separating the basement into a Legal separate dwelling to make the house an up/down duplex. The project is already underway.

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Calgary, Alberta · Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 4 votes
4y

Awesome post, well done. Thanks for sharing.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Lender · Calgary, Alberta · Member since 2020 · 55 posts · 18 votes
    4y

    This is awesome!!!!

    Thank you for sharing!!

    Keep us posted on the basement development.  

  • Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 50 posts · 25 votes
    4y

    That's fantastic! It's really nice to hear a success story!

  • Rental Property Investor · Calgary, AB · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 10 votes
    4y

    Congrats! Looks really great! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton, Alberta · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    4y

    This is awesome - Sounds like a very successful project. Thanks for posting in so much detail. It can be hard to find solid numbers when you're looking to see what things cost in Edmonton. What neighbourhood is this in if you don't mind me asking?

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    @Mark Diamond

    I don’t mind at all. The house is in Montrose, in NE Edmonton. I chose the area based on the appreciation of houses in the neighbourhood, and it is an affordable area of the city to buy in. The city was mid way through an initiative to update the neighbourhood at the time. They repaved the roadways and sidewalks, created multiuse paths, rebuilt the largest park and are currently building a new school. The neighbourhood was the draw but I liked the house for being a rather low point of the street, there was a lot of value to add.

    I see you are back in the Edmonton market. Welcome back! Is there an area of the city you are looking into? What sort of property investing (if any) are you interested in?

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton, Alberta · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    4y

    That's really interesting. I have mostly spent my time looking into areas around the Valley Line LRT. I am most familiar with the Bonnie Doon area (Strathearn, Holyrood, etc.), but the price of entry on a BRRRR or a buy-and-hold is making the numbers that I am seeing unfeasible. The west leg of the Valley Line has a little more potential from what I've been seeing, and I would be interested in a property in that area in the next couple of years in order to get in on the appreciation associated with the new infrastructure.

    I have looked into the NE a bit, but have a bit of trouble knowing which neighbourhoods are B-class vs. C-class. When I moved a few years ago 118 Ave was pretty rough, but I’ve noticed the beginning of a change in the area since being back. I will have to spend some time looking into it now - scanning the prices in Montrose and reading the details of your post makes me optimistic that something up in that area might work out well.

    I'm definitely interested in investing in property in Edmonton. I think there's a lot of potential to add value in the older neighborhoods at a reasonable price. I would say right now my interest would be mainly in BRRRR. It was something that wasn't a great fit for the market in St. John's with lower housing prices that made it hard to get the numbers to work to cover the entire renovation cost. I was able to pick up a buy-and-hold out there, but now am looking for ways to actively add value in order to speed up my growth, and I think that BRRRR is the right balance for me of maintaining my (limited) up-front capital, and growing my portfolio over the long term. Under the right circumstances I would also consider a flip to get a little more up-front money quickly.

    How about you? After your duplex conversion would you be looking to acquire more properties in the NE?

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    @Mark Diamond

    I see what you mean about the West End. It is an area that I plan to invest in eventually, but the numbers do look a lot nicer for me at this point in the north east. 
    One of the things I have found to be very prominent in that area of the city is the marked change in feel from one street to the next. I know what you mean about 118th avenue, that is not a street I want to own houses along. Now if you look only six Avenues South, you see Ada Boulevard where many houses sell for $1,000,000 or more. I see a lot  of value, not only financially but also in bettering a neighbourhood and the city, by bringing a house up to the top of its class in the neighborhood. In a neighbourhood like Mountrose (or surrounding) this can be done for a pretty modest fee. Whereas other neighbourhoods in the city, at this time anyway, are too cost prohibitive for me to bring a house up to the top of its class. I wouldn’t buy a house without exploring the neighbourhood on foot first. There are definitely areas of the city where I don’t feel comfortable walking around, and if that is the case, than any investment opportunity is a moot point. The particular street I bought on is not a through street and the traffic there is confined to the people who live there. The street is beautiful and full of 60 year old trees, the people are very similar. I spent a bit of time talking to the people on the street before I bought the house. After only a few visits I knew the neighbours on both sides of the house as well as across the street. I think the thing that makes one neighbourhood rough and another pleasant is the people who live there. I am getting a bit rambly, but what I mean to say is that you should only invest where you feel comfortable and maybe one Street doesn’t define the neighbourhood. 
    I have really enjoyed this project and the BRRRR method as a whole. I would like to keep doing it, and specifically in situations where I can add more units than I purchase the property with. Flipping houses is very tempting, but I think I would rather search for help in financing then to have to sell the house after the renovation. The 30 year outlook on buy and hold investing is the goal that I'm working toward. I have not looked at the numbers recently but I think on a flip there could be a profit of several tens of thousands, and on a buy and hold, by the end of the 30 years, there could be a profit several hundreds of thousands. This is probably too simple of a perspective, but a flip just seems like a job in addition to the one that I have, and buy and hold seems like a way to build wealth over time.
    I am not married to any one part of the city, but I have come to appreciate Montrose in particular. I will probably follow the deals more than a neighbourhood, but I do hope that happens to be in Montrose. 
    Do you have any idea when you are looking to pull the trigger? If you do move on a flip or a BRRRR would you hire a contractor, or hire the sub trades and be the contractor, or do the work yourself?

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton, Alberta · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    4y

    Couldn't agree more on the street-by-street approach to the NE. I don't even like to drive in parts of Beverley or Alberta Ave., but would be happy to live in parts of Highlands so you really just have to explore. I spent a good part of the day today checking out neighbourhoods up that way today actually inspired by your post. From what you've said in your post I think we have similar ideas about the importance of the people in the community, and I have always been drawn to the idea of bettering a community through rehabbing properties in need of a facelift (or more in a lot of cases), and through adding housing through duplex conversions, etc.

    I am also drawn in by the prices. I know Edmonton has a reputation as being a relatively affordable market in Canada, but coming from Atlantic Canada, where my 2-unit home in the heart of downtown that was completely renovated in 2019 and cost $285K, I'm having a bit of sticker shock. So to see prices in the $200Ks is pretty nice assuming the right property comes to market.

    If the right property came along I would buy it tomorrow. I'm eager to get started, and having spent the last couple of months getting a bit of a handle on the Edmonton market I think I'm ready to start looking seriously. I would love to do a lot of the work myself where possible but would need to rely heavily on knowledgeable people in that area. I have worked on a home renovation before from start to finish, but that was more as a labourer where I just did what I was told - when you talk about bringing a basement suite up to code in order to make it legal or planning out the work I just don't have that experience. Ideally I would want to work with a partner who did have that knowledge, since I know how quickly you can get yourself into trouble doing renovation work without experience. Otherwise, it might be a good idea to hire a contractor - at least for the first one.

    Do you know of any good resources on what the requirements are in Edmonton for a legal basement suite? How much are you anticipating that work will end up costing? Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions!

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    I’m glad I was able to help you out! I started a BiggerPockets account a while back but I only just started being active on it in the last month or so, I’m finding a lot of motivation from other peoples experiences too. 
    I like exploring different cities on the MLS and seeing what houses sell for in different areas. Atlantic Canada is a whole different beast from here. That's amazing that you can get a two unit house in a build up area for that price. What does an average house rent for in that area?

    Doing the work yourself is interesting, it seems like a really good foundation for understanding the development of a house and the whole building process. It’s not for everyone and I don’t know how sustainable it is as a long-term business plan, but it sure is A good learning experience. The planning involved for a basement suite is not as crazy as you might think. There are several things you need to address and then besides that it’s just a regular dwelling. If you look up basement suites on the Edmonton website you will find their design guide and it talks about everything you need to address and the specific requirements. The basic version is you need to address sound between the units, they need to have separate bathrooms kitchens living spaces and bedrooms, separate ventilation and heating, fire protection between the two units, and access egress for the two units. Off the top of my head that pretty much covers it. I have always made my own drawings for projects, and that part of the project is where I was able to plan everything, and learn the rules. There’s a program called Trimble Sketchup that is free to use and can be a good way to plan things, there might be other programs out there. Are use AutoCAD now, but when I started Trimble sketch up was a god send. To create a drawing that shows all the separate systems of the house means that you can’t ignore any problem. For instance it’s nearly impossible to create an electrical drawing that shows all the outlets smoke alarms electrical panel, light switches lights and fans without first considering each one of those items. By the time you’ve looked into how frequently you need to place a receptacle along a wall and what type of receptacles you need in a kitchen and where to use GFCI, AFCI etc. you are going to have a much deeper understanding of your project than someone who just walks on to a site and is given a set of plans. Very likely by the time you finish your plans you will not need them anymore because he will know your project down to the tiniest details. I like to take this approach with each one of the different scopes of work, plumbing, HVAC, electrical, structural, drywall and insulating, flooring and tiles, cabinets and countertops. Then when each drawing is finished I send it out to someone who knows about that specific trade for critiques, or to a business for a quote if you were hiring sub trades, they will tell you if you made any mistakes. At that point you probably have a drawing that’s ready to send into the city for approvals, and if you’ve gotten to that point you probably have a drawing that will get you a permit, and an understanding of your project that will help you avoid costly mistakes. 
    I think if you talk to five different people about their approaches you’ll get six different answers about the best way to do a thing. I’m not sure this way is for everyone, it is a very specific approach, but I hope it helps!

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton, Alberta · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    4y

    My only real experience in Atlantic Canada is in St. John's, which has some similarities with Edmonton in that it can be a good cash flow market, but its appreciation can be a little tied up with the price of oil. In 2015 prices decreased a fair bit, and have only really just recovered to their 2015 levels. So appreciation hasn't historically been great. St. John's is becoming a more diversified economy lately though, with a booming tech sector, and it's the capital and only real major city in the province so things are looking up for the market. All that being said, rents are not significantly lower than in Edmonton - my 3-bedroom unit (which is not very large) rents for $1,480/month and the studio rents for $900 (both including utilities). There is potential to increase based on current market conditions, but I have good tenants in now so will probably only increase slightly over the next little while. I could probably get around the same rents but without utilities if I were to list now. It is a hot rental market right now, and demand is a lot stronger than supply. If you ever wanted more details on St. John's, other places in Newfoundland, or my property specifically, or if you were looking for contacts out that way I would be happy to chat about them any time.

    I will have to check out Trimble Sketchup! Thanks for sharing your process - larger-scale renovations are definitely intimidating as someone without that experience, but I am more convinced every day that the forced appreciation involved would be worth figuring it all out for. Like you said, it might not be viable as a long-term plan, but in the short-term it seems like a good way to learn the process and to keep as much money as possible in the property. Did you use a traditional lender for the original mortgage on the property? Was the refinancing relatively straightforward?

  • Calgary, AB · Member since 2021 · 327 posts · 176 votes
    4y

    That's amazing work! I'm in Calgary and I can't even find any house under 300k. Can I ask how big the BRRRR property is?

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    Hi Stevo,

    There are many houses in Edmonton along this line, some would work better than others of course. The house is 33’X33’ so 1000sqft on the main floor and the basement is the same, less the mechanical room. The stairs don’t affect the square footage as I move them to the exterior. The lot was quite a bit bigger than most you would find in Edmonton, for the situation. the neighbour to the south purchased three lots and used 2 1/2 of them when they developed their property, then this house was built after that development and was able to occupy one and 1 and 1/2 lots, so the legal description actually declares two separate lots. Unfortunately it wasn’t built in a way that I cannot  subdivide the land because the house straddles the property line. Anyway the house is not very big but it made for a large yard which is always a happy bonus. 

  • Calgary, AB · Member since 2021 · 327 posts · 176 votes
    4y

    That's an amazing deal by Calgary standards. I purchased a property in 2021 for 295k and put about 30k into it (roof was 7k alone). It's only about 600 sqft and house was built in the 1940s. It required new flooring, paint, electrical, etc. It was a lot of work haha. I got a 5yr fixed mortgage on that thing and was wondering how I can unlock some equity. Have never done the refinance part before, can you get some equity out prior to mortgage term?

  • Investor · Kettering, OH · Member since 2020 · 7 posts · 5 votes
    4y

    Congrats on the successful BRRRR! Beautiful kitchen and great job renovating it. Did you have trouble finding a bank to do a cashout refi?

  • Rental Property Investor · Calgary, AB · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 10 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Stevo Sun:

    That's an amazing deal by Calgary standards. I purchased a property in 2021 for 295k and put about 30k into it (roof was 7k alone). It's only about 600 sqft and house was built in the 1940s. It required new flooring, paint, electrical, etc. It was a lot of work haha. I got a 5yr fixed mortgage on that thing and was wondering how I can unlock some equity. Have never done the refinance part before, can you get some equity out prior to mortgage term?Y

    Yes you can but you will have to pay a fee which can be a few thousand dollars, depending on the specifics of your mortgage. You will also need an appraisal by your broker or bank and a lawyer to register the new mortgage on title.

  • Calgary, AB · Member since 2021 · 327 posts · 176 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Chris Dittrick:
    Originally posted by @Stevo Sun:

    That's an amazing deal by Calgary standards. I purchased a property in 2021 for 295k and put about 30k into it (roof was 7k alone). It's only about 600 sqft and house was built in the 1940s. It required new flooring, paint, electrical, etc. It was a lot of work haha. I got a 5yr fixed mortgage on that thing and was wondering how I can unlock some equity. Have never done the refinance part before, can you get some equity out prior to mortgage term?Y

    Yes you can but you will have to pay a fee which can be a few thousand dollars, depending on the specifics of your mortgage. You will also need an appraisal by your broker or bank and a lawyer to register the new mortgage on title.

    Thanks for the response and information!

  • Member since 2022 · 6 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    @Marshall Magnus

    Congratulation Marshall and thanks for sharing! But I have a few questions maybe you could answer them for me.

    1. How did you pay for the renovation when you used all your savings for the downpayment? 

    2. The bank refinanced it after 3 months so you didn't have to wait for 6 or 12 why is that?

    3. And last but not least, a mortgage broker told me you only can refinance 4-5 times your annual wage like a mortgage is that right?

  • Calgary, Alberta · Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Awesome post, well done. Thanks for sharing.

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    @Stevo Sun

    Judging from the several Calgarians I have talked to on BiggerPockets, Edmonton does seem to be better suited for this type of strategy. As far as the cost of the house is concerned there are many houses in Edmonton for that price, they are all just north of downtown or in the north east of the city and represent homes built in the 1950s.

    As far as the mortgage is concerned, Chris nailed it. There is a fee for breaking the term of the mortgage, which is what I had to do. There are two ways that the banks calculate the penalty for breaking it, naturally they choose which ever is the greater of the two penalties. One is called the interest differential calculation, and the other is one year worth of interest on the mortgage. The penalty did not bother me, in the long term it was more profitable to extract the money and move on the next deal rather than avoiding the penalty and not having the funds for my next project.

    I had originally got the mortgage through a mortgage broker I have been using for a while. He set me up with a mortgage through a major bank. I do wish I had set the mortgage up better for the refinance from the start, I guess there’s a cost to education sometimes.

    @Account Closed Anyway the refinance did not go perfectly smooth and we did end up switching banks from the original. None of this was any hardship to me personally as my mortgage broker looked after all of the details, I just told him what I wanted up front and to let me know when he had it figured out. Every once in a while he would call me and tell me how things were going and ask for a decision on “this or that” once he had it figured out we got it refinanced. Actually through the whole of the refinance process we never even met up, everything was done through phone calls and using “doc-u-sign” to sign off on the legal work. (He has been great to work with, if anyone is looking for a mortgage broker I would be happy to endorse him through a personal message).

    I hope that was helpful. I was not expecting so many people to see or show interest in this, I will try to put up some more pictures of the place in this post.

  • Calgary, AB · Member since 2021 · 327 posts · 176 votes
    4y
    Thanks for the heads up! Great information.
  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    @Gilbert Foelscher

    Thanks and I am happy to help out in any way! Also welcome to Alberta, I am sure you will find it a little more friendly to get into the market here over Vancouver.

    This is probably not the most advisable method for most, but I funded the whole of the rehab with a personal unsecured line of credit. After buying the house I started the rehab with next to nothing and bought the materials and paid the carrying cost (mortgage, insurance, property tax, utilities) on line of credit while working on the rehab.

    I actually refinance it in November 2021 and bought it in November in 2020 so it was exactly a year later. I finished the rehab in August 2021 and had renters in it a week later, so I didn’t mind putting off the refinance until the 12 month mark, as I was able to start paying off the debt with the cash flow from the rent  

    I had not heard that rule about refinancing, though I would not doubt it. For me it really just goes back to my mortgage broker, if I tell him what I am planning to do before I buy the place, I feel confident that he will make me aware of any rules I need to know and help navigate through the process, or come up with another way to go about the larger plan. If that rule is as clear as you say it, then it might be more difficult for someone who is trying/beginning to make a full time job out of this. I have been fortunate to have both real estate and a solid job as a land surveyor, that may have made it easier for me. I am not sure.

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y
  • Rental Property Investor · Edmonton · Member since 2020 · 54 posts · 38 votes
    4y
  • Member since 2022 · 6 posts · 2 votes
    4y
    Quote from :

    Thanks and I am happy to help out in any way! Also welcome to Alberta, I am sure you will find it a little more friendly to get into the market here over Vancouver.

    This is probably not the most advisable method for most, but I funded the whole of the rehab with a personal unsecured line of credit. After buying the house I started the rehab with next to nothing and bought the materials and paid the carrying cost (mortgage, insurance, property tax, utilities) on line of credit while working on the rehab.

    I actually refinance it in November 2021 and bought it in November in 2020 so it was exactly a year later. I finished the rehab in August 2021 and had renters in it a week later, so I didn’t mind putting off the refinance until the 12 month mark, as I was able to start paying off the debt with the cash flow from the rent  

    I had not heard that rule about refinancing, though I would not doubt it. For me it really just goes back to my mortgage broker, if I tell him what I am planning to do before I buy the place, I feel confident that he will make me aware of any rules I need to know and help navigate through the process, or come up with another way to go about the larger plan. If that rule is as clear as you say it, then it might be more difficult for someone who is trying/beginning to make a full time job out of this. I have been fortunate to have both real estate and a solid job as a land surveyor, that may have made it easier for me. I am not sure.

     That sounds great thanks again and I actually like that with the personal line of credit. If I can make that work, that would be amazing not to use any of my money to buy the first deal! I really appreciate your comments and @Marshall Magnus what is your next goal and how do you approach it?

  • OUTATIME · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    4y

    Hi Marshall, 

    The house looks awesome after the reno, I am considering also invest in the NE of Edmonton. I am curious if you had to deal with asbestos? I know all of this houses are very old and that would be a major concern for me when it comes to demo.

    I have a listing in mind would love to share it with you for your feedback as you know the area better.

    cheers

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