Investing in Northern Ontario?

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Investing in Northern Ontario?

Manvir G.
Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 1 vote

Hi everyone,

I'm from the Toronto area but have been looking for potential small/medium apartment building investments in Southern Ontario (Waterloo, London, Windsor, St. Catherines, Niagara region, etc). However I haven't really found something amazing so I expanded my search and came across some good deals farther up north. Has anyone in these forums invested there? 

I've been looking at areas closer to Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Thunder Bay, etc. The numbers seem good but how do I go about researching the city/towns themselves? Where could I get info on population growth, employment rates, and vacancy rates?

A few of the properties I've seen mention public assistance housing. How does that work? Would the government pay me directly or would the tenant get a cheque from the government that they would then pay me with?

Also, what exactly does a super do? Since these potential properties would be far away from me I was planning on hiring a property management company to handle the day to day while I would trek up there every few months to check up on things. But some of the properties mention a super on site, how does their job differ from a management company? If a property has a super then do I not need a property management company?

I would appreciate any answers you could provide. Thank you in advance.

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Philip Robbins
Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 12 votes
9y

@Thomas S. please take it easy with this "worthless individual" type stuff. These forums have great support and info and it's not cool to have this kind of derogatory terminology. Sure, from a business perspective you may choose different customers...all I ask is that we keep these forums respectful toward everyone. Keep in mind, most recipients of assistance are single mothers.

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  • Kellan P.
    Rental Property Investor · London, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 19 votes
    9y

    I am currently investing in London, but I grew up in Sault Ste Marie. I just thought I'd chime in and mention that the Sault is heavily dependent on Essar Steel for jobs, and risks a collapsing economy if the plant were to ever shut down. Long term, it could be a risky city to invest in real estate. 

    0Reply
  • Manvir G.
    OP
    Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Kellan P.Yes I've heard that is the risk with towns too dependent on one industry. Thank you for that. 

    What do you think of the smaller towns around Sault Ste Marie? Like within a 2h drive from there. The towns are small but their real estate seems quite affordable. If the populations are steady with diverse employment opportunities then it might be worth checking out, no?

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  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    "A few of the properties I've seen mention public assistance housing. How does that work? Would the government pay me directly or would the tenant get a cheque from the government that they would then pay me with?"

    Public assistance is welfare, or ODSP. Most of them are scammers, they will tell a landlord that the government will pay the rent directly to the landlord but as soon as they become tenants the tenant cancels the direct payment and that is the last rent the landlord ever sees.  The bigger problem after rent payment is attempting to collect when they stop paying. The government has declared anyone receiving government assistance to be protect from collecting through garnishing of income. When a welfarian stops paying the landlord has seen their last dollar.  

    The only ones I have been unfortunate enough to have were inherited and every last one was a bad tenant. Had to get rid of them all and have always rejected all applicants on gov. assistance.

    The safest and best policy for landlords in Ontario is to never rent to anyone on welfare or ODSP.

    0Reply
  • Manvir G.
    OP
    Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Thomas S. Wow I didn't think it could be that bad. If a tenant on welfare cancels the direct payment, couldn't a landlord contact the government and complain that they aren't receiving the promised rents? Wouldn't the government then deal with the tenant by either going around them to give the landlord money or by withholding payments to the tenant unless it's for rent?

    I don't know much about this subject that's why I have a hard time understanding why it's so disadvantageous for landlords to have tenants on public assistance when the government should be making it appealing to have such guaranteed rents.

    0Reply
  • Steven B.
    Investor · Niagara Falls, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 24 votes
    9y

    Greg S. Exactly Right. The Ontario government protects them from landlords. I've tried to have a heart in this game. But there's no room for it. It will cost you and your family in the end. Avoid them like the plague 

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  • Steven B.
    Investor · Niagara Falls, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 24 votes
    9y

    Greg S. Exactly Right. The Ontario government protects them from landlords. I've tried to have a heart in this game. But there's no room for it. It will cost you and your family in the end. Avoid them like the plague 

    0Reply
  • Lucas F.
    Investor · SSM, ON · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Hi Manvir,

    I currently live and invest in Sault Ste. Marie. Kellan P. is accurate in identifying the volatility and dependence on one major industry. Below I have tried to illustrate a few positives and negatives:

    Positives:

    -Properties are reasonably priced and well below the average for Ontario.

    -The majority of properties will cash flow with current market rents.

    - Vacancy rate is favorable, although it has slowly increased over the past couple years.

    Negatives:

    - Property taxes

    -Reliance on one primary industry

    -Aging population above the average

    -Small decline in population

    I do see future potential in a city like Sault Ste. Marie (speculation) as it is a boarder city and could be utilized as a central economic hub for transportation, tourism, ect. The history shows a cyclical market with ups and downs reliant on our steel producer. Hope this helps.

    0Reply
  • Manvir G.
    OP
    Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Lucas F. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    If a tenant on welfare cancels the direct payment, couldn't a landlord contact the government.

    Direct payment is solely at the discursion of the welfare recipient. The government does not guarantee anything and could care less if a landlord receives their rent. We are in a nanny state as far as taking care of worthless individuals.  The actual cost to police the system is greater than simply paying recipients so there is no motivation on the part of the government to do anything.

    If you care about your investment never rent to any one on any form of government assistance in Ontario.

    0Reply
  • Manvir G.
    OP
    Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Thomas S. I've seen a few properties listed as "Ontario Public Housing" and I thought that government subsidized housing might be a good idea if the government is guaranteeing the rental checks. But after hearing what you have to say, I think I need to reconsider that train of thought.

    0Reply
  • Philip Robbins
    Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Thomas S. please take it easy with this "worthless individual" type stuff. These forums have great support and info and it's not cool to have this kind of derogatory terminology. Sure, from a business perspective you may choose different customers...all I ask is that we keep these forums respectful toward everyone. Keep in mind, most recipients of assistance are single mothers.

    1Reply
  • Justin H.
    Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 148 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    @Manvir G. - join a local investor lub or go on CMHC website. this tells you everything you need

    0Reply
  • Steven B.
    Investor · Niagara Falls, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 24 votes
    9y

    @Philip Robbins when I read @Thomas S. on these forums is a godsent.  

    1Reply
  • Philip Robbins
    Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Steven B. fair enough. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that he was referring to a few specific people who may have caused him trouble. I just want people to be conscious of the lived experiences that some members may have (eg raised by a parent on social assistance). Thanks

    0Reply
  • Carol Myhill
    Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Manvir G.:

    Hi everyone,

    I'm from the Toronto area but have been looking for potential small/medium apartment building investments in Southern Ontario (Waterloo, London, Windsor, St. Catherines, Niagara region, etc). However I haven't really found something amazing so I expanded my search and came across some good deals farther up north. Has anyone in these forums invested there? 

    I've been looking at areas closer to Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Thunder Bay, etc. The numbers seem good but how do I go about researching the city/towns themselves? Where could I get info on population growth, employment rates, and vacancy rates?

    A few of the properties I've seen mention public assistance housing. How does that work? Would the government pay me directly or would the tenant get a cheque from the government that they would then pay me with?

    Also, what exactly does a super do? Since these potential properties would be far away from me I was planning on hiring a property management company to handle the day to day while I would trek up there every few months to check up on things. But some of the properties mention a super on site, how does their job differ from a management company? If a property has a super then do I not need a property management company?

    I would appreciate any answers you could provide. Thank you in advance.


     I know this is a super old thread, but for any other Toronto investors looking - it may be worth it to join facebook.com/ssmreio 

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