Title Problem Discovered During HELOC Application

Title Problem Discovered During HELOC Application

Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes

This is AWESOME!  You guys are going to love this.

I applied at Bank of America (mistake 1) for a HELOC. I liked the option of interest only and a 10 year draw, etc. It makes for a cheap ability to keep money moving around for my purposes.

Anyway, they call me today and tell me that they ran a title search on my primary (the one I applied for HELOC) and I am showing a bankruptcy in 2013 and my girlfriend (also on the deed to the home) is showing a bankruptcy in 2012. We bought this house in 2010.

So I tell bank of america, "Hey, I just refinanced my rental property LAST MONTH with an 810 credit rating, how can this be accurate?"  She said "it probably is a mistake but you need to get it cleared." Never even missing a payment in my life I said "how the  hell do I do that?"  She said "I would start with your county clerk's office." Oh great.  Those that live and do anything in Detroit know how crappy that answer is, because it's nearly impossible to reach someone and they don't call back.

So, I spent an hour calling everybody and getting nowhere.  I then call a loan officer and talk to him.  He said they should provide proof to me that this is on there and then their title company should be able to fix it for me.  So i called bank of america rep back and she said she will call the title company and ask if they have any more info on this but that's the best she can do.

So i said fine.

So, I called my credit union where I should have gone in the first place.  They have my primary mortgage to this house.  I called, talked with them, they said no problem, when / if it shows up they will fix it for me.  LOL

Just to be sure, my friend's sister owns a title company locally.  I talked with her, and she said she could fix that in 5 minutes.  She said because both my girlfriend's name and mine are very common last names someone just screwed it up but it should be SIMPLE to fix, and she would fix it quick if I was able to use her.  

So, I'm hoping that's all it's going to be.  I am hoping that it will get cleared without an issue.  

I kept arguing with the bank of america rep, I said you haev my credit report, it shows NOTHING, and an 810 score, how can you honestly think i Have a bankruptcy from a year ago?  And she kept saying "yah it could be a mistake".  UH NO IT IS A MISTAKE!! MY GOD!

Anyway, isn't this fun?

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Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
11y

@David Roberts - public court records normally don't contain SSN in them, so there is no way to match a person by that unique number.  So they must use some other attributes to perform the match beyond just seeing that the names match; especially with commons last names.  One way is to look at the street address of the court record and the address history of the person as shown in the credit report.

When I check criminal records on tenants and contractors, I use name and known addresses; for tenants I tell them that a match of name and date of birth on a criminal record is considered a match (I am not going to go crazy trying to determine if two or more people with the same name and date of birth exist).

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  • Real Estate Investor · Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 693 posts · 216 votes
    11y

    it amazes me that people that damn dumb still has a job with the way good people are looking for work.

    Good luck

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    its this country man.  It's not just that bank.  You wouldn't believe how lost financial advisors are at Wells Fargo.  I've had arguments with a couple of them Also because I knew what they were telling me was wrong and they wouldn't listen.  It says alot when you call back and get  different answers from different people everytime. 

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    I had this happen to me twice where I was reported bankrupt, even though I've never had a late payment in my life. Both times, it was a small mortgage company that I had assumed a loan from in the late 90's. Both times, I had it removed, but it took a while. 

    As far as Bank of America, I would avoid them like Ebola. Flagstar is offering 90%LTV HELOC's and Talmer is offering 85%. You could also consider Chase or Huntington.

    I had two HELOC's with BOA on rental's (they only loan on primary residence these days) and there was a balloon after the ten year draw period. Most other banks have a ten year draw and then give you another 20 years to pay it back.

    Once you get your credit cleared, I would call a different bank.

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    I'm now going on day 4 of ZERO happening with my application at BOA,and I'm 3 weeks in.  This is once again a symptom of bureaucracy, and some are worse than others.  My 'processor' also has a bit of an attitude and ya know what?  I have a limited patience.  And my patience is wearing thin, especially when I keep getting attitude.  My processor doesn't understand that I don't need any further info about what's on the title.  I get it, someone else's bankruptcy got put on my title.  CLEAR IT!  The question should be, what is needed to get the title clear?

    She said she's 'internally investigating' and has a request into her title company FOR THEM to ask THEIR VENDOR (my God...), what other information can be provided.  I DON"T NEED MORE INFO I NEED THE TITLE CLEARED! 

    I don't know if I am going to run into this with every bank or not, which is why I haven't terminated and went somewhere else.  I have a flagstar not even a mile from me but I don't have an account there.  I do have a chase account, but Chase is another huge bank and I suspect compartmentalized just like BOA is.

    It's all getting frustrating.  I'm calling the processor on a daily basis now.  Hopefully my persistence will pay off.

    My friend's sister owns a title company locally and I talked with her about it.  She said this is a common thing and it's COMMON SENSE.  She said they just need to run my social security number and see that there's no bankruptcy and then just clear the title.  Simple as that.  She said she would prepare an affadavit for me (forget the technical name, something like executive affadavit ...) but my processor said it probably wouldn't be acceptable lol.

    I just don't want to start back to day 1 again and run into this AGAIN with another bank.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Yea, this is not uncommon at all.  Things get attached to the wrong people all the time.  Not just BK's.  Most processors will work through the issue to resolve through the title company or on their own.  Not really a loan underwriter's job.  That is probably closer to the issue you have with BOA.

    It sounds like the title company owner friend is simply preparing an affidavit to say the record is not yours.  If the record is not removed, it will not resolve the underwriting issue.  The record can not be offset by an affidavit it needs to be removed.

    If you or one of the agents here goes to https://www.pacer.gov/ you can get a search on you and pull the report down showing no record.  Then you likely have to resolve it with the county recorder's office and have the record unattached from your property.  The Pacer report can be sent to underwriting (they be able to pull it themselves but I digress) and that is that, you don't have a BK since you can't have a BK and not show up in Pacer.  Pretty simple really.

    It is really not all that complex.  Might be less brain damage for you to just give the above a shot to resolve it for all involved.  

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    but isn't this what a title company does?  That's what my friends that owns the title  company said.  THey will check into inaccuracy like this and see when they run the  ssn that it isn't me and clear the title.  I Called my bank today that holds my loan.  Got in touch with someone in the title dept. They had their examiner look into it.  They called me back 10 minutes later and said the ssn are not us and to tell boa to stop running our names and use our ssn!  The County Register of deeds called me back and said they only keep records,  they don't handle disputes or anything like that. Of course they don't.  Lady suggested I call an attorney. If I have to go that route I'll be suing whomever screwed up for court costs and attorney fees.The loan company also told me both bankruptcy were discharged and terminated too! 

  • Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 708 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Roberts:

    but isn't this what a title company does?  That's what my friends that owns the title  company said.  THey will check into inaccuracy like this and see when they run the  ssn that it isn't me and clear the title.  I Called my bank today that holds my loan.  Got in touch with someone in the title dept. They had their examiner look into it.  They called me back 10 minutes later and said the ssn are not us and to tell boa to stop running our names and use our ssn!  The County Register of deeds called me back and said they only keep records,  they don't handle disputes or anything like that. Of course they don't.  Lady suggested I call an attorney. If I have to go that route I'll be suing whomever screwed up for court costs and attorney fees.The loan company also told me both bankruptcy were discharged and terminated too! 

    I would bite the bullet and start the loan process from scratch with your Credit Union. Doesn't sound like you have sunk money into this yet (or did you foot the bill for an appraisal already?), so all you lose is a couple of weeks (and a bunch of paperwork). Actually, in my experience, the lender of your primary mortgage should be your first stop for a HELOC anyway. They might cut you significant slack on the process and fees.

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    my credit union's terms for heloc suck for my purposes otherwise I certainly would have.  They hold and have held all of my mortgages.  I usually close on mortgages and refinances with them in 21 days or sooner.  Excellent.   Just not for a heloc for the purposes of what I want to do with the money. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y

    I agree with @Dion DePaoli - go to pacer.gov, or call the phone number for the bankruptcy cases in district where you are located (by phone you can do a free lookup of any bankruptcy in most districts).  Find out the specifics on the bankruptcies you do find that match your names, and use those to prove it is not you.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    ....

    If you or one of the agents here goes to https://www.pacer.gov/ you can get a search on you and pull the report down showing no record.  Then you likely have to resolve it with the county recorder's office and have the record unattached from your property.  ...  

    Dion - I don't believe that there is anything recorded against the real estate based on what the OP has posted; I think that there might be some judgments out there against people's names that match the names of the OP, and that is what is causing the lender and title heartburn.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    This is certainly stupidity on the part of BofA.  Almost everyone has someone else with the same name, and that's why you use social security numbers.  But by the way, this is NOT a Title Problem or title co. responsibility.  They check and deal with Title issues for the property, and public liens against the property/owner, not a borrower's background/credit issues for obtaining a loan.

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    The bank that holds my loan says they believe BOA's title company is 'stupidly' looking up my name rather than using my social security number, otherwise this would not be showing up, or even if it does show up on the title, would easilly be disregarded and CLEARED. 

    I don't know enough about the inner workings of who does what with Titles and who has what jurisdiction to clear them, but my friend at the title company (who owns their own title company) said had the bank used her, she would have cleared the title in 5 minutes after running my social and seeing that I am not the person with whom the bankruptcy was filed...thus they would clear the title, and I'm good to go.

    I took that as the title company can clear titles.  I don't know who actually has authority to remove records on a title.  I thought that was the point of a title company.  To ensure a title is free and clear.  I would assume errors could be corrected by a title company.  

    There has to be a simple and cheap way to repair incorrect errors, not have to see an attorney, pay stupidly high fees, etc.  

    When i had the 3-way conf call with my friend at the title company and my BOA processor, my friend told the processor she would send the affadavit in, and the processor said it likely wouldn't be 'acceptable'.

    My God...I think I could prove it all day long but if BOA doesn't want to accept anything outside of what their own diligence finds, then I'm at their mercy.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    I don't believe BofA's "title co." has anything to do with this.  This is Not a title issue.  A bankruptcy is Not a cloud on a title.  There are no "records removed from a title".   A "mistaken identity bankruptcy" is not a title issue, IT IS A BORROWER CREDITWORTHINESS ISSUE, and it is an Underwriting issue.  The problem lies with BofA's Underwriters (did I mention it's not a title issue?).

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    Just went to Pacer.gov, looked up both bankruptcies, got the names and numbers of attorneys and all the case info.  Awesome that I was able to acquire all of this in 15 minutes, and we're on day 4 of BOA doing their own internal investigation.  

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    I don't believe BofA's "title co." has anything to do with this.  This is Not a title issue.  A bankruptcy is Not a cloud on a title.  There are no "records removed from a title".   A "mistaken identity bankruptcy" is not a title issue, IT IS A BORROWER CREDITWORTHINESS ISSUE, and it is an Underwriting issue.  The problem lies with BofA's Underwriters (did I mention it's not a title issue?).

     So what is my course of action then ? Call BOA and tell them they're morons?

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    This is certainly stupidity on the part of BofA.  Almost everyone has someone else with the same name, and that's why you use social security numbers.  But by the way, this is NOT a Title Problem or title co. responsibility.  They check and deal with Title issues for the property, and public liens against the property/owner, not a borrower's background/credit issues for obtaining a loan.

    Agreed that SSN is used for credit reports.  But liens and judgments shouldn't show any SSN, so a name search is all that they have for that.  How they use the name match when doing the lien and judgment search seems to be the problem here; they assume that because the name matched that the persons match, when we know that isn't always the case, particularly with common last names.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Roberts:
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    I don't believe BofA's "title co." has anything to do with this.  This is Not a title issue.  A bankruptcy is Not a cloud on a title.  There are no "records removed from a title".   A "mistaken identity bankruptcy" is not a title issue, IT IS A BORROWER CREDITWORTHINESS ISSUE, and it is an Underwriting issue.  The problem lies with BofA's Underwriters (did I mention it's not a title issue?).

     So what is my course of action then ? Call BOA and tell them they're morons?

    Call the lender rep and tell them you have further information regarding these bankruptcies that offers proof that you and your significant other are not the persons who had the bankruptcies.  And teach them how to obtain that proof, or hand it to them.  Creating acrimony won't score you any points with the lender's reps, so try to be nice :)

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    So guys, help me to understand this...

    Are you saying that they just found a person with my name that had a bankruptcy record and they pulled that person up and sent it to my processor, without doing any diligence as to check my social security number?  I mean if that was the case, then anyone with a fairly common name would have this happen every time?

    Are you saying then that this isn't attached to my title at all, and that they searched my name, found someone with my name, and sent it back to my processor?  I mean my God.  There are 4995 records of people with my name when I searched.  Only one with the file date that the processor gave me.  The last 4 digits of that person's social match what my loan company provided me.  BINGO!  Looked up my girlfriend's, found the same thing.

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @David Roberts:
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    I don't believe BofA's "title co." has anything to do with this.  This is Not a title issue.  A bankruptcy is Not a cloud on a title.  There are no "records removed from a title".   A "mistaken identity bankruptcy" is not a title issue, IT IS A BORROWER CREDITWORTHINESS ISSUE, and it is an Underwriting issue.  The problem lies with BofA's Underwriters (did I mention it's not a title issue?).

     So what is my course of action then ? Call BOA and tell them they're morons?

    Call the lender rep and tell them you have further information regarding these bankruptcies that offers proof that you and your significant other are not the persons who had the bankruptcies.  And teach them how to obtain that proof, or hand it to them.  Creating acrimony won't score you any points with the lender's reps, so try to be nice :)

     I just emailed my processor all of the info including the reprsenting attorneys, their phone numbers, the case file numbers, etc.  I took out the sentence about how it took me 15 minutes and 1 dollar charge to acquire all of this and we are 4 days and counting on Bank of America running their investigation.  I removed that sentence LOL.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y

    @David Roberts - public court records normally don't contain SSN in them, so there is no way to match a person by that unique number.  So they must use some other attributes to perform the match beyond just seeing that the names match; especially with commons last names.  One way is to look at the street address of the court record and the address history of the person as shown in the credit report.

    When I check criminal records on tenants and contractors, I use name and known addresses; for tenants I tell them that a match of name and date of birth on a criminal record is considered a match (I am not going to go crazy trying to determine if two or more people with the same name and date of birth exist).

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    On pacer.gov the last 4 digits of the SSN of all parties involved were there.  So, even looking at that should be able to tip them off.

    There were no people by our names that previously lived here.  Again, the more I find out the more it seems they just didn't do their diligence. My problem is in Michigan there is 10,000+ records combined for myself and my girlfriend's names.  They could have grabbed any of those then, if they weren't going to look beyond the name.  It just seems silly to me to not look beyond the name.

    The records didn't show date of birth that I saw...but at some point they need to be CERTAIN that I am the person they are actually dealing with.  My title company friend said they should be able to run my SSN ultimately and see it's not me becuase that is what she would have done.  Well, if she's telling me that, then they should hvae also done that.  I had to submit last 2 year's tax returns to the bank.  They have my SSN on government documents.  

    I just think it's a case of laziness.  It's a case of bureaucracy.  I know how that works, becuase I work for a big corporation.  People are lazy, people don't want to work.  They do something, then pass the buck.  It happens regularly at my job also.  I also believe it's why this 'internal investigation' is on day 4 and counting.  My processor 'did her job' and is now waiting on a response.  She could care less how long it takes for my problem to get resolved.  In fact I'm not even convinced she knows what she should be asking for.

    Hopefully I did all of the work necessary now for them to get this straightened out.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Not to divert too far, bankruptcy searches are conducted as a function of obtaining an abstract of title.  Title policy issuance is affected when a BK is present in certain cases.  Let us not forget that real property ownership as well as homestead registration are both involved with BK cases.  These are all issues that will fall onto the desk of the title agent.  

    My take on the OP comment is there is something attached to his name which is showing a BK.  To that degree, I don't think it sounds like this is an issue with the credit report, rather the abstract the underwriter received which has a BK flag on it.  There is a small variety of records that can bring the BK file to surface in a search.  It is difficult to guess further with any certainty. 

    There is something of record that needs to be unattached to the OP's name which resolves back to a BK filing under the person with the same name.  In underwriting showing the PACER records can encourage the underwriter to continue to work on the file opposed to issuing a denial however the issue will be a barrier to funding of the loan as it could trigger buyback.  

    So, for the OP, this is not simply a BK issue.  There are essentially two pieces, one the BK flag the other is the thing causing the flag to trigger.  Ask the underwriting/loan rep to tell or send you the item that caused the flag to trigger.  That is what you will have to resolve.  It sounds like your title friend can assist once you get pointed in the right direction.

    That is my guess.  If the OP get's further detail and the issue stands come back and update the post and we can see if we can assist further.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @David Roberts 

    I believe what your title friend is referring to, here it is called a "same name" affidavit.  Basically you sign an affidavit, notarized, stating that you are Not the person, with the same/similar name, named in a BK/judgment/lien, etc.  The lender/underwriter relies on this in issuing the loan.  If you lied, it's loan fraud. 

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @David Roberts 

    Nice name!

    The first thing I would have done, is go to the courthouse, possible with an abstractor an search to see what records there are for the bankruptcy(s) of the other parties with the same names.

    Secondly, I would sign an affidavit swearing that the persona with the same name and their credit history was not mine.  Your co-owner should do the same. 

    Thirdly, in the future I would use possibly an expanded name, like David Roethlinsberger Roberts, to distinguish your self from other David Roberts.  Just like John Fitzgerald Kennedy.  Take a guess on how many John Kennedys are around.  some people even have TWO middle names, sometimes further just to distinguish themselves.

    Fourthly, if it is a continual problem, a friend of mine didn't have a real common name but there was somebody else who lived in the same town with the same name who kept getting arrested and making the newspapers/TV.  My friend considered legally changing his name, since the same named person wasn't changing their criminal ways!  If this is a persistent problem consider changing your name legally.

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    I'm not changing my name lol

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