Material Participation hours with spouse and business partner

Material Participation hours with spouse and business partner

Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 1 vote

Our Situation:

Two couples, new to real estate investing, each with one working spouse with a high income (W2 and 1099) and one non-working spouse plan to go 50/50 on a new construction STR which will not close until Spring of '25.

Our Plan:

Year 1: Both couples satisfy test #1 and each participate in 500 hours of activity. Cross fingers that congress passes bill to allow bonus depreciation, perform a cost segregation analysis in year 1 to capture as much depreciation as possible to offset incomes. 

Subsequent years: Alternate satisfying test #3 with one couple participating in at least 100 hours of activity (and more than any other individual) and the other couple not meeting participation test. 

Questions:

1. When can we start to accumulate hours? If the property does not close until spring of '25 do the hours spent furniture shopping in January still count?

2. How do spouses hours count? For example, if both couples are in the property working on building a piece of furniture that takes 2 hours how many hours towards material participation does that count? I would assume/hope since each person is there they each get to claim 2 hours and since spouses hours are combined that would mean 4 hours to each couple towards the 500 requirement. 

3. Does claiming a large amount of depreciation in year 1 and then not passing material participation test in the following year have any effect on the previous years ability to offset income? 

4. Do travel hours to and from the property if going there explicitly to work on the property count? One couple would be driving about 90 mins each way and the other couple would be driving 9 hours each way. 

5. What flaws do you see in our above plan? 

We of course are planning to meet with a real estate CPA to clarify these questions, but I'm trying to be as prepared as possible and understand as much as I can before meeting with them.  Thanks in advance for your responses, this community has already been an amazing resource. 

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Metro NY + New Bedford · Member since 2022 · 294 posts · 216 votes
2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Daniel Cannon:

Our Situation:

This is a @Michael Plaks: type of question, if he chooses to respond.

Your questions are specific enough to your situation, I'd suggest you pay to have an actaul conversation. It would be well worth the investment.


 Everyone wants free tax advice.  Try that from a lawyer.

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  • Sean O'KeefePro Member
    CPA | Accepting new clients | 50 States · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    2y

    @Daniel Cannon for #3 - the answer is that it has no effect.

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    *This post does not create a CPA-client relationship. The information contained in this post is not to be relied upon. Readers are advised to seek professional advice.

  • Sarah KensingerPro Member
    Real Estate Consultant · OH · Member since 2023 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    I would recommend you get in touch with a real estate attorney-CPA firm, to help you walk through all the benefits available to your specific situation. We love Anderson Business Advisors and they're very knowledgeable in this area! Others have used Prime Corporate Services and enjoyed what they had to offer as well.

  • Metro NY + New Bedford · Member since 2022 · 294 posts · 216 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Daniel Cannon:

    Our Situation:

    This is a @Michael Plaks: type of question, if he chooses to respond.

    Your questions are specific enough to your situation, I'd suggest you pay to have an actaul conversation. It would be well worth the investment.


     Everyone wants free tax advice.  Try that from a lawyer.

  • Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    2y

    Thanks all for the replies. It's been difficult to find any specific answers regarding material participation online. I am meeting with a CPA to discuss these questions, but figured I'd see if anyone has been in a similar situation. 

    These are my current understandings of the answers to my above questions:

    1. Unsure

    2. All participants in the activity would count their hours individually. So each couple would accumulate 4 hours for the above example

    3. No effect 

    4. Should count for the more local couple, but for the longer travelling couple may be more difficulty to prove that are going to the property to explicitly work on the property.

    5. Unsure

    I'll update answers after meeting with CPA next week. 

  • Nate MeekerBusiness Member
    Real Estate CPA | California · Member since 2020 · 544 posts · 251 votes
    2y

    @Daniel Cannon - here is some light reading, only a 154 pages from the IRS audit guide haha. All jokes aside, a good rule of thumb is that investor type hours do not count more so hours that are critical to daily operations. 

     https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-mssp/pal.pdf


    The CPA Realtor 573 Reviews
  • Attorney · Boston, MA · Member since 2023 · 140 posts · 75 votes
    2y

    @Nate Meeker yes! Completely agree. From IRS audit experience, think of it this way:

    If the auditor views the hours as “unnecessary” OR over the top that had no bearing on the successful operation, they will disallow.

    Real world example: You live in Colorado and have a STR in Arizona. You drive twice per month to work on them and count all travel time. Experienced auditors WILL disallow these hours and your CPA may successfully be able to argue for a few hours (equivalent of a flight).

    Zillow browsing, podcasting, over the top travel will be disallowed 10/10 times.

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