Scummy realtor behavior in hot market

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Scummy realtor behavior in hot market

Wilson Hunter
Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes

So I just had a verbal off market deal in place with a real estate agent in the Smokies who owns a lot of his own cabins (this is not someone who is active here!). I saw the property today while I was in town, agreed on terms (everything including days to close and earnest money), and he had me text him all my personal info so we could work up a contract and sign within the hour. I decided to pull over in a restaurant on my drive halfway back home to Virginia to wait for the contract to come in, and boom, I get a Zillow app alert that the property I had agreed to buy from this guy suddenly hit the MLS $50k over our agreed to price. I called him up, and he was basically like "I realized that I can probably get more, you can still submit an offer and we can see what happens."

This is my first foray into off market negotiations. Is this normal? How do people reputationally get away with this stuff?

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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y

And that's the problem with where our world has devolved to....A man's word used to be good. Now it's not and most people on the forum thinks that is fine. Sad.

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  • Lucia Rushton
    Realtor · Dallas - Fort Worth Metroplex, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 925 votes
    4y

    @Wilson Hunter. I am so sorry thus happened to you. There are definitely ****** Realtors out there. I trust for whatever reason this property was not meant for you.

    3Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Wilson Hunter,

    "How do people reputationally get away with this stuff?"

    We let them.

    That said, until you have a signed contract, the property is still in play.

    My $0.02 ...

    2Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    As they say "Buyers are liars and sellers are thieves."

    After doing $200 Million+ in sales at an average closing price under $100,000, I can tell you all with absolute certainty that, that is the truest quote in real estate.

    The way I heard it:

    "Buyers are  liars, sellers are worse." 

    1Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Wilson Hunter,

    "... off market deal in place with a real estate agent ..."

    That's an oxymoron, unless the agent is the owner. Perhaps that's the lesson here: if the owner is an agent / broker, assume it's (about to be) listed.

    Another poster suggest that he doesn't blame the guy for trying to get the best price. However, since he'd already spoken with you, I -DO- blame him. As Lt. Worf would say, he "has no honor".

    1Reply
  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @David Dachtera:

    @Wilson Hunter,

    "... off market deal in place with a real estate agent ..."

    That's an oxymoron, unless the agent is the owner. Perhaps that's the lesson here: if the owner is an agent / broker, assume it's (about to be) listed.

    Another poster suggest that he doesn't blame the guy for trying to get the best price. However, since he'd already spoken with you, I -DO- blame him. As Lt. Worf would say, he "has no honor".

     The owner is an agent, yes. In the Smoky Mountain market many/most short term rental agents also own their own cabins, and many of them buy and hold, so I don’t necessarily think the assumption that it is about to be listed is accurate. The Airbnb listing had 64 reviews and had been running for a while.

    1Reply
  • Violet Sinclaire
    Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 10 votes
    4y

    It's business, don't take it personal. In a hot market, the seller has the upper hand. They have all the power and buyers usually have to grovel, sadly.

    We got lucky with our investment purchase because the listing agent wasn't very good and the previous buyer canceled out of the deal, so seller was extra motivated to sell to next in line.

    2Reply
  • Marc RiceBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Wilson Hunter

    If you had a good investor friendly agent he wouldve locked it up on the spot on your behalf. You always need someone representing your best interest.

    [email protected]614-363-2787
    Marc Rice | Investor Friendly Agent at Reafco Tailwind Team574 Reviews
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    2Reply
  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Marc Rice:

    @Wilson Hunter

    If you had a good investor friendly agent he wouldve locked it up on the spot on your behalf. You always need someone representing your best interest.

    No he wouldn’t have. If you read the story the point is that the owner never intended to sell it to me at the price he had agreed to. Having an agent helping in this situation wouldn’t have magically helped land the property, but it’s true that I probably would have avoided the deceitful seller tactics.

    1Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y

    He's a licensed REALTOR. His fiduciary responsibility to the Seller, not to you. He probably told the Seller about your offer and the Seller realized he could probably get more, so they put a higher price on it.

    "It's a fair price for both parties..."

    If you were that excited to throw an offer before it was even listed, I'm pretty certain you were hoping to get it below market before anyone else got a shot. You were close. You weren't cheated.

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    2Reply
  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

    He's a licensed REALTOR. His fiduciary responsibility to the Seller, not to you. He probably told the Seller about your offer and the Seller realized he could probably get more, so they put a higher price on it.

    "It's a fair price for both parties..."

    If you were that excited to throw an offer before it was even listed, I'm pretty certain you were hoping to get it below market before anyone else got a shot. You were close. You weren't cheated.

     You didn’t read the story. (1) The realtor is the seller. (2) The “offer” was the price he gave me.

    2Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:

    You didn’t read the story. (1) The realtor is the seller. (2) The “offer” was the price he gave me.

    I misunderstood that part.

    So now my response is, "Why did you drive away with an unsigned contract?"

    If it goes under contract in the next 30 days, it will prove you were offering too little. If it languishes on the market because he's asking too much, he'll call you back.

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  • Henry Lazerow
    Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    In hot markets deals get cancelled all the time by sellers even after a contract is signed (the attorney just emails out I disapprove of contract). I always recomend my clients put earnest down ASAP and close out attorney review period ASAP to avoid these issues. Earnest money they can still cancel but it adds complications and forces sellers agent to change MLS status to contingent.

    1Reply
  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
    Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:

    You didn’t read the story. (1) The realtor is the seller. (2) The “offer” was the price he gave me.

    I misunderstood that part.

    So now my response is, "Why did you drive away with an unsigned contract?"

    If it goes under contract in the next 30 days, it will prove you were offering too little. If it languishes on the market because he's asking too much, he'll call you back.

    We were in the process of getting to the contract as I saw him simultaneously list the property on the MLS. He told me he was working up the contract and about to send it to me. I was in the area visiting my own cabin and wasn't actively hunting off market deals. This just happened to come up.

    The point of the story has nothing to do with contracts, optimal strategies to land properties, etc. The topic at hand is “it’s messed up to straight up lie to people to make an extra buck in real estate.”

    Many people here think anything is fair game as long as it’s legal, including breaking  your word on verbal commitments and lying. I am contending that it is unethical behavior, and it’s not something I’d personally engage in.

    3Reply
  • Cameron Johansson
    Real Estate Agent · St. Petersburg/Tampa · Member since 2021 · 57 posts · 21 votes
    4y

    @Wilson Hunter zero fun when that happens

    1Reply
  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Karl B.:

    I would be angry also. I trust people and expect them to be a man or woman of his or her word.

    As others have said, the seller didn't do anything illegal although it makes the seller look unprofessional, rude and a man who doesn't honor his word as he wasted your time. Give the realtor proper reviews on Zillow, Yelp, Google Reviews, etc. and you'll feel better, I promise. 

     So is what you’re saying is if somebody doesn’t do what you think they should do a public smear campaign? 🥺

    1Reply
  • Pat Mulligan
    Investor · Ventnor City, NJ · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 34 votes
    4y

    So sorry this happened to you, Wilson.  I've had plenty of deals myself and representing clients, where the other party acts without integrity.  Me? I gotta sleep at night. There is nothing worse than the worthessness of one's word, IMO. 

    Additionally, as a retired Realtor, I would encourage my colleagues to re-read the Realtor Code of Ethics.  Included are paragraphs like this: 

    "The term REALTOR® has come to connote competency, fairness, and high integrity resulting from
    adherence to a lofty ideal of moral conduct in business relations. No inducement of profit and no
    instruction from clients ever can justify departure from this ideal."  The Code also talks about the Golden Rule.  

    Owner or not, Realtors ARE held to a higher standard than the public wherever real estate is involved.  Your seller gives us all a bad name. 

    Pat Mulligan

    3Reply
  • Bob Galivan
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 55 votes
    4y

    Every state in the US requires that real estate contracts be in writing in order to be valid. It is unfortunate that you left thinking that you had a verbal agreement, but put yourself in his position: suppose they were your cabins, and you made a verbal deal with someone that drove in with the promise that you'd send a contract later. Thirty minutes later, another guy drives in and offers $10,000 more than your previous buyer did. Would you say, sorry, I just promised another guy I'd sell to him for $10k less than you offered? It's more likely that you'd see the opportunity to make an extra $10k.

    Your seller assumed that you would go through on your end, just like you assumed that he'd go through on his. He faced the same risk - what if you got cold feet? What if he did turn down another offer and you got cold feet?

    What should have happened is that you and he both should have insisted on a written agreement. If it was not convenient, you could have drawn up a simple written agreement that bound both of you to the sale, with contract docs to be sent within a few days.

    2Reply
  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Bob Galivan:

    Every state in the US requires that real estate contracts be in writing in order to be valid. It is unfortunate that you left thinking that you had a verbal agreement, but put yourself in his position: suppose they were your cabins, and you made a verbal deal with someone that drove in with the promise that you'd send a contract later. Thirty minutes later, another guy drives in and offers $10,000 more than your previous buyer did. Would you say, sorry, I just promised another guy I'd sell to him for $10k less than you offered? It's more likely that you'd see the opportunity to make an extra $10k.

    Your seller assumed that you would go through on your end, just like you assumed that he'd go through on his. He faced the same risk - what if you got cold feet? What if he did turn down another offer and you got cold feet?

    What should have happened is that you and he both should have insisted on a written agreement. If it was not convenient, you could have drawn up a simple written agreement that bound both of you to the sale, with contract docs to be sent within a few days.

    You didn't read the post. The seller lied and tried to simultaneously list his property on the MLS while communicating with me that we had a deal. This has nothing to do with contracts in writing, getting cold feet, or anything else. It's an issue of integrity and ethics.

    2Reply
  • Ricky Davis
    Investor · Searcy, AR · Member since 2018 · 53 posts · 39 votes
    4y

    Wilson, just read all the different views on this. If someone is defending this joker than you know who to run from. They do not have anything in mind but taking the money and running!! If an agent is so stupid that he would offer you his place than attempt to sell it for 50k more than he has NO clue about his market!! That should be a huge red flag with rockets going off that he is not the sharpest individual!! Lots of deals out there and now you know who not to use!! In fact I would offer him 50k less just for wasting your time!!!

    3Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y

    Under the REALTOR rule of "clear cooperation" a REALTOR must market the listing to the public within 24 hours of marketing it to anyone. If he takes to you about it on Tuesday, he is required to list it publicly by Wednesday.

    i think you're upset that you couldn't buy it cheap and your slandering a REALTOR just because he beat you at your game.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Ricky Davis:

    Wilson, just read all the different views on this. If someone is defending this joker than you know who to run from. They do not have anything in mind but taking the money and running!! If an agent is so stupid that he would offer you his place than attempt to sell it for 50k more than he has NO clue about his market!! That should be a huge red flag with rockets going off that he is not the sharpest individual!! Lots of deals out there and now you know who not to use!! In fact I would offer him 50k less just for wasting your time!!!

    I agree this agent probably isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I bet he's smart enough to reject an offer for $50k less than the original offer.

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  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

    Under the REALTOR rule of "clear cooperation" a REALTOR must market the listing to the public within 24 hours of marketing it to anyone. If he takes to you about it on Tuesday, he is required to list it publicly by Wednesday.

    i think you're upset that you couldn't buy it cheap and your slandering a REALTOR just because he beat you at your game.

    To suggest I’m slandering a realtor is laughable. I didn’t even post the dude’s name. I’ll also suggest for a third time that if you read the post you’ll see that the dude offered me a price for his Airbnb and I simply agreed to his price. He’s a professional broker and I’m a random guy with one cabin trying to get a second one. I wasn’t playing any games. 

    If your job relies at least in part on a public persona on BP you probably want to stop appearing like a scumbag. Good grief.

    1Reply
  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    Under the REALTOR rule of "clear cooperation" a REALTOR must market the listing to the public within 24 hours of marketing it to anyone. If he takes to you about it on Tuesday, he is required to list it publicly by Wednesday.

    @Nathan Gesner I actually learned something new on that statement there. There are not a ton of those where I learned something new.

    1Reply
  • Bob Galivan
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 55 votes
    4y

    Fascinating thread. Name calling, moral uprit-it-tude, ethical indignation. Covers the gamut. I say with utter certainty that every person on this thread, including Wilson, if they found themselves in the position of the browbeaten cabin owner - of having agreed to a price that he later determined was under-market, would have run for the exit as well. And, if there had been a written contract and it came to light that the price was under-market, every person on this thread would have looked for any opportunity to exit the contract.

    What's missing here is the following

    • We have Wilson's side of the story, but not the cabin owner, so it's easy to create a narrative about his abhorrent behavior. Was he looking to sell the cabin? Or did some guy wander in off the street and offer to buy it?
    • Most posters also missed the fact that Wilson is a willing participant in an investor's forum. Meaning that one would expect that he has some knowledge of the market and investing - the fact that the cabin owner was a Realtor does not make him a savvy investor. I know a lot of Realtors who have zero knowledge of this facet of real estate. Did Wilson offer a low-ball price, hoping to get a deal?
    • Both sides erred in not getting something in writing. Wilson's an investor and the other party was a Realtor, so both would have known that if it ain't in writing, it ain't a contract. The cabin owner would have had the same concern about Wilson's going forward with a contract - you can imagine the owner posting here that "some jerk came by my cabin and offered me a great price, but when I sent him the contract, he dropped his price by $10,000.00"

    What's really unfortunate here is the response by the community to the post. Many of the responses trash the real estate industry (of which I am a member) without considering the entire picture. The post condemns someone after hearing half of the story - one that is quite biased in its perspective.

    It might be useful to get in contact with the other party to this conversation - the voice unheard - and see how he describes the encounter. That would be an interesting conversation!

    5Reply
  • Wilson Hunter
    OP
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
    4y

    I’ve certainly learned a lot about people in your profession, Bob - way more than when I wrote the first post.

    By the way I researched the guy a little bit and found disciplinary action by Real Estate Commission for “Substantial and willful misrepresentation, misleading or untruthful advertising, improper fraudulent or dishonest dealing” leading to a civil penalty in the state of Tennessee plus a pending lawsuit for something else unknown. My inspector told me last night “oh yeah he screwed over one of my friends, stay far away.”

    I cannot fathom how someone reads my post and their first reaction is to defend the guy… Unless, of course, he represents your own behavior in the profession. Then it makes more sense.

    2Reply
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