How do you deal with a mentally ill, problematic Tenant?

Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes

5y

I've got one of these right now. I can't even read the long texts I get occasionally.

I don't plan on renewing the lease unless things change substantially between now and then.

If they get behind at all in rent I will evict them. I can and have done this in SC even with the supposed CDC ban on evictions.

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Julie Hartman

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 667 posts · 587 votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner Is it also a situation where she's disrupting the quiet enjoyment of any tenants nearby? I would think that alone would be enough to get her out. We have one like this, (though not as bad), and we always know when she's off her meds. Sounds like you are on the right track with talking to her folks. Though they may get her under control in the short term but inevitably it will go right back to trouble. Hopefully you can get them to move voluntarily. Good luck!

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Julie Hartman:
@Nathan Gesner Is it also a situation where she's disrupting the quiet enjoyment of any tenants nearby? I would think that alone would be enough to get her out. We have one like this, (though not as bad), and we always know when she's off her meds. Sounds like you are on the right track with talking to her folks. Though they may get her under control in the short term but inevitably it will go right back to trouble. Hopefully you can get them to move voluntarily. Good luck!

@Julie Hartman she's not bothering the neighbors. Her parents live next door and all the other tenants (except one) are older and retired, so they stay indoors and don't interact much. She's been problematic with everyone in my office, but now she's latched on to me and seems obsessed with me specifically. She took a picture of my desk a month ago when I was out and sent it to me in a text yesterday with a comment. She claims to know where I live. She's mentioned my military service and that it doesn't qualify me for property management. It's clear she's reading about me and thinking about me, even though we've never spoken or interacted prior to Sunday. She keeps making comments about me running for Mayor, which i've never talked about or entertained.
She has her own little reality going on.
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Linda S.

Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner,

I'd cut that cord as quickly as possible. We always do M2M leases for tenants like that. I simply say "If you aren't happy here, all we need is a 30-day notice of non-renewal." I always tell people-- the door swings both ways, it cuts out the need for court and proving who did what wrong, simple and easy.

Of the problems tenants we ended the relationships, I regret none of them. The only thing I regret is dealing with their BS for as long as I did, should have pulled the cord quicker.

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Julie Hartman

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 667 posts · 587 votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner Oh god - sounds like you have a stalker on your hands. This could easily spill over to your family. I would find any means to cut the cord on this asap.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

@John Underwood she has eight months left on the lease, so I'm not in the mood to wait it out. I'm preparing a letter regarding a lease violation (two unauthorized dogs) and a review of her unacceptable behavior. I'll offer to let her leave with 14 days notice and no termination penalty. If she insists on staying, I'll hold her to the letter of the lease which includes some fines.

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Doug Spence

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 975 votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

@John Underwood she has eight months left on the lease, so I'm not in the mood to wait it out. I'm preparing a letter regarding a lease violation (two unauthorized dogs) and a review of her unacceptable behavior. I'll offer to let her leave with 14 days notice and no termination penalty. If she insists on staying, I'll hold her to the letter of the lease which includes some fines.

This seems like the best option. Its fair and reasonable and gives her a chance to leave amicably before you take it to the next level. Keep us updated!

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Doug Spence:
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
@John Underwood she has eight months left on the lease, so I'm not in the mood to wait it out. I'm preparing a letter regarding a lease violation (two unauthorized dogs) and a review of her unacceptable behavior. I'll offer to let her leave with 14 days notice and no termination penalty. If she insists on staying, I'll hold her to the letter of the lease which includes some fines.

This seems like the best option. Its fair and reasonable and gives her a chance to leave amicably before you take it to the next level. Keep us updated!

Another update. I just learned she was the victim of a violent crime a couple years ago. Perhaps I remind her of the perpetrator and that's why she singled me out. She's also on some very heavy prescription meds and has been seen stumbling and slurring speech. Finally, she told a neighbor she was involved in a large lawsuit, which she won, and that's what paid for her and her parents to move. They paid a double deposit and three months of rent in advance on two rentals (about $13,000). I'll have to look at her app again (it was processed by an employee).
It just keeps getting better.
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Michael Plante

Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

@Julie Hartman she's not bothering the neighbors. Her parents live next door and all the other tenants (except one) are older and retired, so they stay indoors and don't interact much. She's been problematic with everyone in my office, but now she's latched on to me and seems obsessed with me specifically. She took a picture of my desk a month ago when I was out and sent it to me in a text yesterday with a comment. She claims to know where I live. She's mentioned my military service and that it doesn't qualify me for property management. It's clear she's reading about me and thinking about me, even though we've never spoken or interacted prior to Sunday. She keeps making comments about me running for Mayor, which i've never talked about or entertained.

She has her own little reality going on.

Seriously that is scary

I would call the police and ask for their input

This could go bad fast. Would hate to see it go any further for your sake

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Fikret Sivac

Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 24 votes

5y

@Nathan G. She could not be taking her meds and is not balanced at the moment. I would check with the parents to see how she is during "normal" times. Other than that sometimes you as the parent don't want to make the hard decision but are thankful when someone else makes the decision for them and puts more space between them and their own child. In other words kick her out. I am think the 80/20 rules applies here. Don't have you or your staff deal and I think about this person 80% of the times and she is only 20% of your tenants.

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Seth Savoy

Contractor · New Iberia, LA · Member since 2017 · 12 posts · 3 votes

5y

@Nathan G. I'm probably speaking out of school, but can't you have her arrested for disturbing the peace, then evict her for being arrested on the property?

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David Avery

Flipper/Rehabber · Phoenix Arizona · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 686 votes

5y

Mayor Nathon !!

That's very funny!

I would really lean on the parents. Obviously they just want to wash their hands of their daughter but reality is she needs help and family/parents should resolve the issue.

Your place is not "a rest home". But the other tenants, management , etc, is taking on the

problem.

Do you have a way to contact family, parents and let them know how bad it is.

That you want to make this the easiest for her and yourself and they should help out

or suggest their idea's.

I would start with this first.

mayor Nathon!

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Colleen F.Pro Member

Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner she is decompensating and delusional. If she isn't receiving special services with a caseworker involved you don't have an in to the mental health system to go to. As an adult the parents only have limited influence unless they are her legal guardian. However, talking to them is a good start because they may be able to petition to get her into inpatient mental health through the courts if they see the extent of it and can successfully navigate that system. Particularly they may be motivated if they see you are trying to get them out too as a package. Anything that she says that could be considered threatening is helpful to share with them and the police if needed to support a commitment. If they are legal gaurdians you should know that in your paperwork. Good luck

@David Avery I wouldn't assume they want to wash their hands of her. Unless you are a legal guardian you have little to say in the case of a mentally ill adult child. You have to petition the court to get them committed and the adult child has to meet a specific legal criteria for that to happen.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Nathan Gesner she is decompensating and delusional. If she isn't receiving special services with a caseworker involved you don't have an in to the mental health system to go to. As an adult the parents only have limited influence unless they are her legal guardian. However, talking to them is a good start because they may be able to petition to get her into inpatient mental health through the courts if they see the extent of it and can successfully navigate that system. Particularly they may be motivated if they see you are trying to get them out too as a package. Anything that she says that could be considered threatening is helpful to share with them and the police if needed to support a commitment. If they are legal gaurdians you should know that in your paperwork. Good luck

@David Avery I wouldn't assume they want to wash their hands of her. Unless you are a legal guardian you have little to say in the case of a mentally ill adult child. You have to petition the court to get them committed and the adult child has to meet a specific legal criteria for that to happen.

They are not legal guardians. They moved here at the same time, but the parents and the daughter applied separately and were approved on their own merits. Technically, I shouldn't be discussing her situation with the parents even though they are related. The parents are on a separate lease so none of this is their concern.
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Jill F.

Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

Dear crazy tenant,

We will not be renewing your month-to-month lease effective mm/dd/yyyy. Any future communications will be conducted via email and any urgent problems should be reported via our problem reporting software (per the terms of our lease). Please leave the apartment clean and empty and leave your key and garage door opener on the kitchen counter. email us when you have vacated the premises so that we may secure the unit. We wish you all the best. -Management

***M2M for the win when the crazy sneaks in***

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David GoodmanBusiness Member

Realtor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2020 · 172 posts · 92 votes

5y

@Nathan G.

Let’s be careful not to stigmatize mental Illness.

I operate a couple recovery homes, and work with people who have mental health issues.

If it were me, I’m willing to do a little extra work and see if we can make this work. I think I’d try to find out if she’s actively working through some of her issues with mental health services. If she isn’t, the problems will not resolve themselves. If she is, I’m willing to see if she can get it together.

Also - if she continued to be a problem, I consider raising her rent to a number that made sense for the amount of time and energy needed to manage her unit.

615-979-1644

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

@David Goodman I'm not sure where you see me stigmatizing mental illness. She's sick and I'm going to treat her with kid gloves, but I also can't run my business to suit her illness. If she can't get herself under control, I'll have to move forward with eviction. That's all business and there's no attack on her or people that are mentally ill.

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Jill F.

Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner @David Goodman Nathan, That was probably more directed at me for talking about 'crazy' tenants.

After spending 5 years here in D neighborhood world, where untreated mental illness is rampant, I've come to see 'mental health issues' as a spectrum and those people that are unwilling to seek treatment and that visit their 'issues' on their poor neighbors that can't afford to move, just have TO GO. It's systemic too, a homeless encampment would *NEVER* fly in the neighborhood where I live; but the city let one stay for over two years by my apartments. I view it as my job to make sure that my good tenants and my neighbors in EVERY asset class where I own get the quiet enjoyment that they pay for and deserve. I do not let the homeless sleep in my halls and basement, I chase off the meth addicts having sex on my porch, and call the cops when the addicts OD in the parking lot.

I bought one building that was chalk full of crazy. What do you do when the neighbors complain about your 13 year old tenant that raped a five year old looking at their kids?? His father raped him when the father was still a minor and dear ol' dads girlfriend kept getting pregnant, and for entertainment she'd get drunk and fist fight the neighbors in the
alley (while pregnant) and they'd take her babies away at the hospital (5 babies), -- the grandmother wanted me to install a dead bolt on the outside of the kid rapists bedroom door. And what about the guy that got mad and killed the neighbors children's cat? . oh and I had one that threatened to break all the windows and burn down the building because we had to come into her apartment and fix a toilet leaking into an apartment below her. And then there have been the animal hoarders. OMG there are some sick puppies out there. 'Mental health issues' just doesn't do it justice. But you know what I was able to negotiate an exit plan with all those people, some who were profoundly sick... the only one I was completely unable to reason with was a text-book narcissist I inherited (he had 5 previous evictions and had been in a fist fight with his last landlord- who was a real snake but that's another story). He's still my only eviction. It's maybe not 'nice' to call mentally ill people 'crazy' but sometimes that's still the most apt description of the behavior. The local EMT's thanked me for cleaning out that building and so did the neighbors. You don't get into landlording because you want to win a popularity contest. But one of the main reasons that I think, that I am successful in D neighborhood world, and that I have an average tenancy of 51 months is because I do care about my tenants and if you can't be civil and behave then you can't stay in my apartments. The mantra of slumlords everywhere is "I can't help how people live". Yes. you. can. if it's your building.

We as a society need to do something about the severely mentally ill; Especially the unsympathetic cases. Right now, they give them $750/month in disability and they're pretty much on their own and their f*d up relatives who are their payees usually steal a couple hundred of that from them every month. it's tough out there. But it is extremely unfair to structure things so that the poor people stuck with no options but living in poor neighborhoods have to deal with all the 'crazy' and it's just wrong on so many levels to insist that private landlords with no special training house these people. No. Reagan screwed up when he closed all the mental hospitals.

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Alex Forest

Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner This is exactly the type of situation that drives me nuts as a Landlord. And is also the reason I'd seek a PM for this property (I'm aware that's your role here). All the rest, self manage. As I'm sure you know, it will get better once they are out. I can't stand that constant messaging. Im not sure the best way to handle it with another 8 months, but the less time they are there, the quicker it passes.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

@Jill F. Unfortunately, some people in the forums are extremely sensitive. I've used "crazy" and other terms to describe people that are likely mentally ill. That doesn't mean I speak that way directly to them or that I mistreat them in anyway. I'm certain my treatment of others, even really bad tenants, is above reproach. My words when talking to other investors may be more harsh.

Our entire society is becoming too sensitive, too weak, too soft. It's crazy.

(see what I did there?)

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

@Alex Forest you would give this rental to a PM but self-manage the rest? How's that going to work? Bad tenants can show up in any rental. The last time I dealt with a mentally ill tenant was in a 4bed/3bath house on five acres that was one of my nicest rentals. She just happened to be married to a plumber of 40 years that made really good money, but she was still nuttier than squirrel poop.

If you self-manage, you have to accept the risk of bad tenants finding their way in on occasion.

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Peter TverdovBusiness Member

Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

Haha don't get into student housing @Nathan Gesner I think I deal with this weekly with our student portion of what we manage. If people are sending you long, dramatic walls of text, you don't need to read them. You're not their psychologist. If there is a legit problem with the apartment, obviously respond and take care of it. If they are being a PITA, start posting Notice to Cease for any lease violation you can find, then at that point you won't have to renew the lease and they will likely leave since you are so horrible anyway.

I have realized a lot of people are crazy or on medication so when they act the way they act, I just treat them like they are in fact crazy and it doesn't bother me anymore.

[email protected]732-289-3823

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William Walker

Investor · Wilmington, NC · Member since 2016 · 211 posts · 262 votes

5y

Why does your tenant have the contact info to the owner? I have a PM for a reason - the primary being that I don’t want to be bothered with this kind of stuff.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

@William Walker I always tell owners not to give out their contact information. In fact, my property management agreement forbids them from doing it because of the problems it can create. However, he was doing work on the property a few months ago and decided to give his number to the tenants in case they had any questions. He's in his 70's and just likes to be nice.

He regrets it now that she rambled for 30 minutes.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jill F.:

@Nathan Gesner @David Goodman Nathan, That was probably more directed at me for talking about 'crazy' tenants.

After spending 5 years here in D neighborhood world, where untreated mental illness is rampant, I've come to see 'mental health issues' as a spectrum and those people that are unwilling to seek treatment and that visit their 'issues' on their poor neighbors that can't afford to move, just have TO GO. It's systemic too, a homeless encampment would *NEVER* fly in the neighborhood where I live; but the city let one stay for over two years by my apartments. I view it as my job to make sure that my good tenants and my neighbors in EVERY asset class where I own get the quiet enjoyment that they pay for and deserve. I do not let the homeless sleep in my halls and basement, I chase off the meth addicts having sex on my porch, and call the cops when the addicts OD in the parking lot.

I bought one building that was chalk full of crazy. What do you do when the neighbors complain about your 13 year old tenant that raped a five year old looking at their kids?? His father raped him when the father was still a minor and dear ol' dads girlfriend kept getting pregnant, and for entertainment she'd get drunk and fist fight the neighbors in the
alley (while pregnant) and they'd take her babies away at the hospital (5 babies), -- the grandmother wanted me to install a dead bolt on the outside of the kid rapists bedroom door. And what about the guy that got mad and killed the neighbors children's cat? . oh and I had one that threatened to break all the windows and burn down the building because we had to come into her apartment and fix a toilet leaking into an apartment below her. And then there have been the animal hoarders. OMG there are some sick puppies out there. 'Mental health issues' just doesn't do it justice. But you know what I was able to negotiate an exit plan with all those people, some who were profoundly sick... the only one I was completely unable to reason with was a text-book narcissist I inherited (he had 5 previous evictions and had been in a fist fight with his last landlord- who was a real snake but that's another story). He's still my only eviction. It's maybe not 'nice' to call mentally ill people 'crazy' but sometimes that's still the most apt description of the behavior. The local EMT's thanked me for cleaning out that building and so did the neighbors. You don't get into landlording because you want to win a popularity contest. But one of the main reasons that I think, that I am successful in D neighborhood world, and that I have an average tenancy of 51 months is because I do care about my tenants and if you can't be civil and behave then you can't stay in my apartments. The mantra of slumlords everywhere is "I can't help how people live". Yes. you. can. if it's your building.

We as a society need to do something about the severely mentally ill; Especially the unsympathetic cases. Right now, they give them $750/month in disability and they're pretty much on their own and their f*d up relatives who are their payees usually steal a couple hundred of that from them every month. it's tough out there. But it is extremely unfair to structure things so that the poor people stuck with no options but living in poor neighborhoods have to deal with all the 'crazy' and it's just wrong on so many levels to insist that private landlords with no special training house these people. No. Reagan screwed up when he closed all the mental hospitals.

God Bless you for housing these folks.. takes a special person personality to deal with what your doing.

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David Dachtera

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

This is a long story, but I'll spare you the details. A tenant has been with us for four months and problematic since day one. She's from a particular state where people are known to be entitled and demanding and think highly of themselves, so we just thought she was "one of those people" and tried our best to handle her professionally while keeping our distance. Her parents live in the same apartment building and are extremely nice and helpful. When their daughter makes crazy accusations, they'll roll their eyes or ask her to go inside her apartment. Yesterday her mom actually locked their apartment door and refused to speak with their daughter. We received dozens of phone calls, long, rambling voicemails, and lots of text messages. Even when I set an appointment to meet her in 30 minutes, she still called and left a two-minute voicemail just repeating her complaint. After I addressed her concern, she called the owner for 30 minutes to complain about the problem and how I refuse to fix it. Then she sent another dozen texts to me at work, followed by several crazy reviews on Yelp and facebook groups.

I've had two mentally ill tenants that behaved the same way. One was evicted in 2014 (my last court eviction!). The other one (brain injury from car accident) was from a very wealthy family in Texas. Her family attorney was in contact with me for bill payment and a few other matters, so I was able to explain the situation and the family agreed to have her moved back to Texas.

I can't afford for my staff to spend this much time on one person or the stress that comes with it. I want to evict the tenant, but she's so irrational that I suspect it would take a court order. I plan to speak with the parents and see if they'll either get her under control or they can all move out without penalty.

How would you handle it?

What did your attorney suggest?

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
This is a long story, but I'll spare you the details. A tenant has been with us for four months and problematic since day one. She's from a particular state where people are known to be entitled and demanding and think highly of themselves, so we just thought she was "one of those people" and tried our best to handle her professionally while keeping our distance. Her parents live in the same apartment building and are extremely nice and helpful. When their daughter makes crazy accusations, they'll roll their eyes or ask her to go inside her apartment. Yesterday her mom actually locked their apartment door and refused to speak with their daughter. We received dozens of phone calls, long, rambling voicemails, and lots of text messages. Even when I set an appointment to meet her in 30 minutes, she still called and left a two-minute voicemail just repeating her complaint. After I addressed her concern, she called the owner for 30 minutes to complain about the problem and how I refuse to fix it. Then she sent another dozen texts to me at work, followed by several crazy reviews on Yelp and facebook groups.
I've had two mentally ill tenants that behaved the same way. One was evicted in 2014 (my last court eviction!). The other one (brain injury from car accident) was from a very wealthy family in Texas. Her family attorney was in contact with me for bill payment and a few other matters, so I was able to explain the situation and the family agreed to have her moved back to Texas.
I can't afford for my staff to spend this much time on one person or the stress that comes with it. I want to evict the tenant, but she's so irrational that I suspect it would take a court order. I plan to speak with the parents and see if they'll either get her under control or they can all move out without penalty.
How would you handle it?

What did your attorney suggest?

@David Dachtera I don't use an attorney very often. I can typically figure things out on my own.
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Account Closed

Member since 2021 · 237 posts · 153 votes

5y

@Nathan G.

I would absolutely press the parent button. Approach from a position of caring. “I’m concerned for her health and well-being “ or similar. Always compassion and calm. That doesn’t mean bending over and taking one in the tailpipe it means working from concern for what’s best for HER will also end up being what’s best for you.

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Colleen F.Pro Member

Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner technically maybe you shouldn't be talking to her parents but the reality is that if she gets kicked out you have to make it clear she can't stay with them either. I am sure you know how to use such a conversation to the best advantage. Most states if she is a danger to herself or others commitment is a possibility but the court would need to be petitioned.

@Jill F. yes the community mental health movement has had a lot of negative impact on society as a whole and we have a long way to go. Only in 2008 did we pass the mental health parity act requiring equal insurance coverage for mental health care. Some of the good parts of the de-hospitalization effort you don't see. There are functional people who now have their lives back. Of course, there is a spectrum of mental illness its not just pedophilia and addiction. And as you noted heredity plays a role schizophrenia it is 6x more likely if your parent is schizophrenic and that creates problems itself.

In some areas, there are community group homes for people like Nathan's tenant. They have support personnel but there are not enough homes and many people are too ill to be able to use them. In addition even crazy people have choices and can opt out of care. Like you have done and as is with any tenant situation --- deal with the problem behavior.

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How do you deal with a mentally ill, problematic Tenant?

How do you deal with a mentally ill, problematic Tenant?

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