(WA) Landlord charging for their labor

Jason Schlieger · 2021-04-25T23:40:01-07:00

I'm trying to help someone but couldn't find an RCW for this. A tenant has damaged a pocket door in the home and the landlord has already fixed it themselves, which primarily just consisted of the hinges. No fee was discussed or agreed upon and nothing is stated for repair fees in the lease. After the repair, the ll is now wondering if they can/should add fees for their labor. I see no RCW saying a landlord can't make their own repairs. For WA, if it requires no license it can be any "responsible person capable of performing the repair", so we are sure that legally no toes were stepped on in this regard (the tenant also had no issue with the ll doing the repairs themselves). The only uncertainty we suppose is that nothing had been agreed upon for a fee so it's only after the repair was finished the ll now wants to charge. There are RCW specifications for limits if the tenants performs the repairs due to a negligent nonresponsive landlord, but nothing saying a ll can/can't charge fees, or if they must use market estimates to create a reasonable fee, or if such fees have to be agreed upon before the repair is made. They just don't want to step on any 'legal toes' since at this point its sort of like the tenant wasn't made aware or under the impression that repairs would be more than the parts. No one wants a legal issue by ambiguously making a repair under no agreement, but then deciding to charge after going home.

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

If there was no agreement in advance, the Landlord should eat the cost. In the future, he should have some agreement (at least verbally, but preferably in writing) that states what work he will accomplish and what he will charge. Tenant can accept Landlord's charge or hire his own contractor.

The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews

Website View Page

0 Reply

Jason Schlieger

OP

Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 0 votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

If there was no agreement in advance, the Landlord should eat the cost. [...] Tenant can accept Landlord's charge or hire his own contractor.

Thanks!

I couldn't find an rcw on anything. Are you 'recommending' the LL eat the cost since they didn't specify there would be a cost, or is that more the 'lawful' answer and it is illegal for LL the charge since there was no agreement in the lease or verbal. WA RCW doesn't technically say the LL can't do the repairs, but then it also doesn't say if the LL can charge for their own time, and our confusion partly stemmed from learning that some states actually DO say the LL cannot charge for their time.

And secondly, is there anything in the RCW or otherwise legally written that would say when a tenant can deny the LL the ability to make the repair? Generally, it's the LL's property so i would think the tenant has no right and no ability to determine who makes the repair if they've already gone to the landlord. In WA RCW, a tenant can make repairs that any reasonably able person can do if the LL has not done so in a timely manner. So i'm not sure a tenant can really say "sorry, LL, you're not qualified i require you find someone else".

0 Reply

Kar Sun

Member since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votes

5y

My contract is pretty clean on when the tenant should pay. A landlord or landlord's agents or contractors can make repairs. The tenant cannot just hire anyone to make the repairs. Any damage caused by the tenant is a responsibility of the tenant to pay for. Again, they cannot just hire anyone to come in and repair because the repairs need to have the same look and feel as the rest of the property. If a repair is small and and assessed as accidental and it is a good tenant it will be noted that this was a courtesy repair. Any tenant that makes lots of small damages or a sizable damage is a goner. A contract won't be renewed. And only one small courtesy repair in 12 months not a whole chain of repairs. I have A class properties and do not need people ruining them. I would rather not rent. I do have very strict rules for screening. I give my tenants a commitment of having a roof over their heads for the duration of the contract. Even their employers do not do that. So I need an appreciation in return and no headache.

0 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jason Schlieger:

And secondly, is there anything in the RCW or otherwise legally written that would say when a tenant can deny the LL the ability to make the repair? Generally, it's the LL's property so i would think the tenant has no right and no ability to determine who makes the repair if they've already gone to the landlord. In WA RCW, a tenant can make repairs that any reasonably able person can do if the LL has not done so in a timely manner. So i'm not sure a tenant can really say "sorry, LL, you're not qualified i require you find someone else".

I think you're confusing two different issues.

First, there's no law against charging someone for work. If the tenant decides to argue that he wasn't expecting to be charged, then he MAY have a legal standing since there was no verbal or written agreement. I don't anticipate this and there's not much point in worrying about it at this time. Just charge the tenant and see what he says.

Second, the Landlord should disclose up front whether or not he intends to charge and how much he will charge. This is just a common sense step taken to prevent any disagreements after the work is complete.

Third, if the work does not require a license, permit, or insurance, then there's no reason why the Landlord couldn't do the work himself to save some money or expedite the repair. And the Tenant has no legal right to say who does work on the property as long as the owner is complying with the law, codes, etc.

Finally, some states do not allow a Landlord to complete work on their own and charge the tenant, but that's specifically referring to cleaning and repairs after a tenant vacates and deductions from the deposit. The reason is that a Landlord could claim to spend 16 hours cleaning the home and then keep the entire deposit, even if the place was spotless. By using a disinterested third party, like a professional cleaning service, it reduces the likelihood of fraudulent charges by a Landlord. I'm not aware of any state that says a Landlord can't do handyman work on their property.

I hope that makes better sense.

The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews

Website View Page

2 Reply

Jason Schlieger

OP

Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 0 votes

5y

Hey Nathan, not sure if you meant to add something there, it looks like you quoted me and nothing else.

0 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Jason Schlieger:

Hey Nathan, not sure if you meant to add something there, it looks like you quoted me and nothing else.

Check the previous post. I accidentally submitted it before adding my comments. They should show now.

The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews

Website View Page

0 Reply

JD MartinBusiness Member

Moderator

Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Originally posted by @Jason Schlieger:

And secondly, is there anything in the RCW or otherwise legally written that would say when a tenant can deny the LL the ability to make the repair? Generally, it's the LL's property so i would think the tenant has no right and no ability to determine who makes the repair if they've already gone to the landlord. In WA RCW, a tenant can make repairs that any reasonably able person can do if the LL has not done so in a timely manner. So i'm not sure a tenant can really say "sorry, LL, you're not qualified i require you find someone else".

I think you're confusing two different issues.

First, there's no law against charging someone for work. If the tenant decides to argue that he wasn't expecting to be charged, then he MAY have a legal standing since there was no verbal or written agreement. I don't anticipate this and there's not much point in worrying about it at this time. Just charge the tenant and see what he says.

Second, the Landlord should disclose up front whether or not he intends to charge and how much he will charge. This is just a common sense step taken to prevent any disagreements after the work is complete.

Third, if the work does not require a license, permit, or insurance, then there's no reason why the Landlord couldn't do the work himself to save some money or expedite the repair. And the Tenant has no legal right to say who does work on the property as long as the owner is complying with the law, codes, etc.

Finally, some states do not allow a Landlord to complete work on their own and charge the tenant, but that's specifically referring to cleaning and repairs after a tenant vacates and deductions from the deposit. The reason is that a Landlord could claim to spend 16 hours cleaning the home and then keep the entire deposit, even if the place was spotless. By using a disinterested third party, like a professional cleaning service, it reduces the likelihood of fraudulent charges by a Landlord. I'm not aware of any state that says a Landlord can't do handyman work on their property.

I hope that makes better sense.

This is my state. If you do the work you work for free, which is why we always sub out any work that has to be done at the end of a tenancy. I don't like to work for free :)

Podcast Guest on Show #243

Skyline Properties

View Page

1 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Can you point to the statute? I'm doing a Google search and not turning anything up.

The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews

Website View Page

0 Reply

JD MartinBusiness Member

Moderator

Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

Can you point to the statute? I'm doing a Google search and not turning anything up.

I couldn't find it either, and I know it used to be in there somewhere. Maybe the act was amended and they took that part out - in any case, that kind of makes my day because now I will research this and if no longer barred, include a fee schedule addendum in any upcoming leases for things that I may end up doing, that usually happen for free. Thanks Nathan!

Podcast Guest on Show #243

Skyline Properties

View Page

0 Reply

Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

5y

A pocket door isn't that complex. It rolls on a track, so I am not sure what hinges were replaced.

The general rule when charging tenants for labor on work performed by the owner is billing the fair market rate for work performed. Some landlords will say, "my time is worth $100 an hour", but if you are scrubbing toilets your time is billed at a cleaners rate. Fixing doors is billed at a handyman rate for similar work. I am not sure what a handyman charges in WA, but something simple like fixing a door is probably an hour job, maybe $10 in parts. This is probably a $60 job at most.

The other question is can you prove the tenant broke it due to misuse? I have fixed lots of doors, locks and cabinet drawers over the years and rarely charged. Mechanical parts wear out and anything that moves can just break from normal use.

I am not sure how you go on site and fix something, yet leave the tenant the impression they will only be charged for parts. It seems like the landlord should have been more transparent. Some people are bad at "confrontation" or even mislead tenants because they are uncomfortable talking money. It is far better to be upfront about things like this. My advice is tell the landlord to bill them for parts and tell them the $XX labor is complimentary this time. Make it clear that you normally charge for labor and will if future repairs are needed.

Of course, I don't have details on how it broke or how much time it took to fix it, so additional details may change my answer.

0 Reply

Jason Schlieger

OP

Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 0 votes

5y

I had been thinking for a moment that if you do the work, you work for free if you are not already working in a tradesmen capacity and the RCW doesn't specify the LL can charge for their time. Essentially it ends at LL responsibility to "make repairs and arrangements necessary to put and keep the premises in as good condition as it by law or rental agreement should have been, at the commencement of the tenancy". Which certainly would not disallow the LL from themselves physically doing the labor but nothing specifies rates. California for example sells out if a landlord performs the repairs they must do so at a reasonable rate. WA is empty on any specificity that far.

I guess i find it odd a tenant friendly state like WA hasn't specified and i was just intially worried about inferring things.

0 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @JD Martin:

I've seen states that say the Landlord can't charge for their own labor regarding cleaning and maintenance. That makes sense because there's a high risk of fraudulent charges just to keep the deposit. I've never seen a state law that prevented a Landlord from doing maintenance and charging the tenant while the tenant still resides in the property, particularly if the tenant agrees to it.

I recommend getting it in writing, just to be sure.

The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews

Website View Page

0 Reply

Daniel SmythPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2019 · 471 posts · 342 votes

5y

@Jason Schlieger

My property, my rules.

Following the contract is important. When I follow mu duties in the contract, I keep my abilities to take the deposit and remove a tenant for cause.

So far, I have not had the tenant that keeps breaking things. However, I do have tenants who are willing to repair small items as needed.

It's only after I agree a repair is needed, that I agree to pay for the supplies. No money is taken off of rent. I pay with a receipt after I see the work.

I have made it clear in my contracts that the tenant may not do anything that may cause a liability or lien on the property. Thus, they cannot get a contractor and have them bill me under Rick of a mechanic lien.

Doing something that gets the municipality to lie my property is also covered. These actions are conditions of their default on the contract.

In the contract, after being in default, all deposits are considered uncollectable and eviction procedures begin.

To end eviction procedures, a new contract with new deposits are required.

As a tenant wishes to repair something, like hinges or locksets and the like, my caution is that they are responsible for doing these things correctly. Just because duct tape, wire, and spray foam is how your dad used to fix things, does not mean this will work.

Like to paint? Think masking and color choices don't matter?

This is not in writing, but my tenants understand that if I have to repair something because they messed junk up, I hire Union, and they get the bill!

I usually do the work on my properties. I hire Union trades when I need permitted work done. The only time I would charge a tenant for repairs, is if the repairs were from tenant negligence.

Accidents happen. Faucets break. The lawnmower really likes garden hoses.

The pocket doors are a nuisance when they are not solid core or designed for medium or frequent use. There are concepts that go with door hanging and repair. You don't get much help from HGTV. The Bob Villa type shows might help for some understanding.

You are not out of line charging tenants for repairs because of their misuse or neglect.

However, some of the pocket doors I have worked on, needed to be replaced, just because repairs were attempted by those without the right tools, knowledge, or temperament to figure out they needed assistance.

[email protected]

0 Reply

(WA) Landlord charging for their labor

(WA) Landlord charging for their labor

Most Popular Reply

13 Replies