30 day notice? I feel like Being the nice guy is not working.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

@Jonathan R McLaughlin thanks I felt like it would be a waist of time to have her sign something that she would not sue down the line also. seems like just letting her walk with he prorated rent will hopfuly get her out of my hair. good riddance.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

@Ned J. your guess of 99.9 percent they don't have a lawyer is %100 correct. She just told me the advice was sent via her doctor who supposedly contacted a lawyer. I have already chose to stop speaking with her son for the reasons you just described. He is not on the lease and any correspondence I need to do are only with her. She is moving out immediately and has already found somewhere else to move into. Thank god. She says she had a preexisting condition of asthma, and that staying in the place here was bringing it back. hopefully she will be gone next week and I will never hear from her again. I'm not planning on slowing down with investing and renting so I thought the money spent on consultation with a attorney could be worth the money spent. Although that is very debatable. I probably wont pay a lawyer for anything unless really needed.

@Nathan Gesner I did order a few Nolo books thanks for that advice. I'm going to read those promptly for sure. About them having money to sue or not, her son does have money. They are basically having her rent some place so they can take the rental agreement and collect SSI and have leverage to get more money through the cost of her housing. Your probably right about them playing me. It really seems like her son is actually playing her (and me) because she seems more shaken up by this then I. She is letting her son make all her decisions for her and he seems very controlling and a bit of a con artist. I'm letting them have this battle, its not worth my time or energy to fight this over a few hundred bucks.

Rental Property Investor · Twin Cities, MN · Member since 2019 · 122 posts · 150 votes

@Brandon Shoults

Please read the post by @Nathan G.

I've realized over the years that I'm a better back office PM. Too nice. Sucker.

I use managment or proxies to deal with tenants most of the time. People who see things as black and white. If that isn't you, best to come to terms with it and let the rules robots do the leasing.

Maybe you are better at finding deals, influencing people or networking.

Find your role, keep moving.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

@Account Closed thanks for the advice. I feel like I am good at being kind and firm with policies but I need to screen heavier for sure. Gotta break some eggs I guess. This Has been a great learning experience for me. I’m very new to this and still want to do self management at the moment because the margins are extremely slim where I’m located. In this particular case I don’t think it’s worth it trying to hold her to the 30 day policy. I’m fine with losing this battle and moving on. Not a huge loss really. I appreciate the 2 cents on finding the right roll.

San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

https://store.nolo.com/products/the-california-landlords-law-book-lbrt.html

Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

I have a few rentals and am just getting started with this as a full time gig. So I'm very green in this space of operation. I keep running into the same issue of tenants moving out without giving proper 30 day notice. I'm fishing for insight and advice on how to deal with no proper notice to vacate a space. It's leaving me with unwanted vacancy and incredibly inconvenient extra payments on spaces i'm trying to fill. I know this is all part of the job and I understand all the reasons people vacate but I'm still left with the awkward situation of having to make judgment calls. Currently I'm doing the classic “House Hack” if you will, with one property I own. (I'm renting an extra bedroom in my house) its rented to a 60 year old woman who is very sweet but is running into some sort of respiratory issues due to what she says could be traces of mold. We also have a wood stove that could be contributing to the issue with traces of smoke lingering into her room. She just moved in at the beginning of the month so it's been less than 10 days. She is telling me she is having to immediately move out due to health issues that could be linked to the house and traces of mold. I have never heard anything like this from anyone else staying in that room. Our lease clearly states that a 30 day notice is required for either party to terminate the agreement. We are on a month to month agreement. She is requesting that I give her the money back for the remainder of the month. Obviously It's a difficult decision for me because I want to be a nice guy. On the other hand I also don't want to get walked on by all my tenants. It seems like a risky liability with it being linked to health issues. Although if someone told me they couldn't work due to health issues I would tell them the rent is still due. Am I in the wrong to ask her to give her official 30 day notice and keep the rent money for the month?

Morally i'm ok with saying that although legally i'm not sure how it would play out as its linked to what she is saying could be trace mold in the home. There are no mold issues as far as I can tell. I would not be writing this if this was not continuously occurring.

Another issue that is closely linked to this is the dilemma i'm having for how much to charge for a deposit and whether or not to charge last month's rent. In the past I had charged first month, last month and security deposit. Recently someone stated that I can not charge over 2 months rent total for all three of those combined. With this particular space rent is 600 for the room I was originally asking first last and deposit.(utilities included) Which would be a total of $1800. The son of the woman who just moved in who was doing all the talking with me on letting her move in informed me that what I was trying to charge was illegal. ( I'm in California) so I only charged a total of $1200 which was two months rent (First month and deposit). I was also nice enough to let him pay the security deposit over a period of two months. as in 900 to move in, then 900 the second month to fill the extra 300 required for the remainder of the security deposit. As much as I've read about it he seems to be correct.

Apologies for the long winded description but I'm making a lot of mistakes and enjoying learning from them.

Any advice would be appreciated. Don’t hold back!

Tell me I'm being an idiot if you feel. I want constructive criticism. I often question my “nice guy” decisions.

Thanks!

Hey Brandon,

You aren't an idiot. Nobody on this forum was born knowing how to deal with all tenant issues.

So, first, in case you don't have it, this book was my bible renting apartments in CA. It includes contracts and all other forms you need. Easy to understand for you and the tenants (as far as the contracts go):

Next, security deposit in CA can be up to 2 months' worth of rent. It is not rent. It is security deposit only. If the unit is furnished it can be 3 times the rent. This money is not rent money. It is only security deposit money.

So, don't get confused with the first, last months rent plus deposit. Don't let tenants confuse you on that. Security deposit can be the same amount of 2x rent or 3x rent. This money is not rent money.

So, when a tenant moves in they need to pay for that month's rent in advance, right? So, they move in on January 1st, and if rent is $600, they give you $600 on January 1st for January's rent. This is rent money.

AND they give you the security deposit. So, if it's unfurnished, you can charge 2x the rent for the security deposit max, so you can charge $1200 for the security deposit.

So, on January 1st, they need to give you $600 rent plus $1200 security deposit.

Now, you have 21 days after they move out to return any money from their security deposit. And......security deposit money can be used for unpaid rent as well as damage beyond normal wear and tear.

What I'd do with this tenant is tell her she's welcome to move out now, and you'll need her forwarding address and you'll refund any money owed to her within 21 days per California law.

And, I'd tell her that if she feels strongly about suing you, she's certainly got the right to do so. Rinse, repeat.

Tenants pull out the mold card when they want out of a lease. Just call her bluff.

Now, you then need to take reasonable means to get the place rented as soon as reasonable, using reasonable means. You are not required to take anybody you wouldn't normally accept and you don't need to jump through hoops. You just have to take reasonable means. Document your efforts. It's my understanding that the courts in CA figure it shouldn't take you longer than 30 days to get a place rented.

She has the right to break her lease - but - you get to charge her your actual out-of-pocket losses due to her breaking the lease. You get to charge her rent until you find a replacement.

Security deposits can be used for unpaid rent and for damage beyond normal wear and tear.

Lots of tenants will bail and let their landlords take their last month's rent out of their security deposit. It's not illegal to do it and it's really understandable, because they just can't normally afford to come up with moving costs, etc.

But, you shouldn't be losing money from tenants moving out. You should be using their security deposit money to cover rent they bailed on, in situations like this.

So, I'd be non-committal. Just tell her you have 21 days to refund any money due and you'll be checking with your lawyer as far as how to handle her breaking her lease, and if she really feels she has a case to sue you, then she's within her right to do so.

You can do it in a reasonable tone of voice. "I know you'd like to have your money back, but I have 21 days to refund your money and my lawyer said I need to wait to be sure there is no damage. Be sure and give me your forwarding address so I can get it to you as soon as possible." That should keep them from doing anything crazy. Just use the broken record technique - just keep repeating that same sentence every time she starts in again.

They don't have money to sue you. And any fair housing organization has their hands way over full with way bigger fish to fry than someone trying to get out of paying rent, claiming wood smoke bothers them in a house they rented a room in - with a wood stove they knew about.

If in some weird universe she actually did sue you - then deal with it. But, look at the odds. I wouldn't worry about it.

6 Reply

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

@Account Closed Wow thanks! that was a very well composed and thought out response. Thanks for clearing that up about the security deposit. Those are the numbers I thought were the case but I got duped hard this time. I learn from my mistakes so it is what it is. Thanks for the book recommendation also! Your very helpful. It is refreshing to hear you suggest what I had just decided to do and tell her that she is welcome to sue me if she feels she has a case. I’m letting her walk and break the agreement so I feel like that should help my case in court if she wanted to try to get aggressive.

Lynnette E.

Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

@Brandon Shoults before she moves out you MUST do a walk through or offer her a walk through of her space and tell her anything that needs to be cleaned or repaired. This is required in CA. Then you have a strict requirement to give her a list of the cost of the repairs/cleaning and refund by a certain timeline. So make sure you get an address to send this to her. If she is already gone and you did not offer her the inspection walk through do not keep any of her deposit. Huge damages against you if you do not follow that process.

And just to see how likely she or her son are of filing a lawsuit look their names up at the courthouse, or on-line. Make sure you check small claims court. They may do this for a living, or maybe they are just threatening you. If the have numerous cases, you may want to check in with your property/liability insurance agent.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

@Account Closed So what are your thoughts on this. The tenant wants her prorated rent back before she actually gets her stuff out so she can lock down her next rental she has lined up. I feel like I'm continuing to get my but kicked here but I'd like to just give it to her so she can secure another place to stay. Honestly it seems like she has some mental health issues that I cant exactly pinpoint. Some people are just really odd. Very happy to see this woman out of my life. Although I Feel like giving her prorated rent money back before she even leaves is a really bad idea.

Lynnette E.

Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

@Account Closed So what are your thoughts on this. The tenant wants her prorated rent back before she actually gets her stuff out so she can lock down her next rental she has lined up. I feel like I'm continuing to get my but kicked here but I'd like to just give it to her so she can secure another place to stay. Honestly it seems like she has some mental health issues that I cant exactly pinpoint. Some people are just really odd. Very happy to see this woman out of my life. Although I Feel like giving her prorated rent money back before she even leaves is a really bad idea.

There is something fishy about this whole situation. Think about it. If your elderly mother had breathing issues would you let her stay any place you thought was affecting her breathing? Would you take her to a hotel, your house, your sibling's house, an hospital, anywhere where she can breathe? So ask, why is she still there? Even if she is poor, her son is not. Something else is going on. Likely a scam to get $ from you. Don't be played.

DO NOT give her the rent back until she is completely out of the house. What if you give her the money and she stays? Then you have no rent, only 1/2 the deposit.

And then she says she is now withholding rent because of 'mold', but she stays there.

Then you have to evict a poor little old lady from your house in the Winter in CA? You could be housing her and paying her utilities for a long time.

What if she herself moves out but does not get all her stuff and you can not rerent the room as she still is in possession, court for you to evict her stuff. And all the while they are holding over your head the mother and your mold, waiting to pounce on a settlement for that.

Then you still legally have to store her stuff in CA and notice her on where and how to get her stuff. More work for you. And rules for you to learn as all this is highly regulated in CA.

You could be in the middle of a scam for free lodging. And you already fell for not getting the full deposit up front. They are playing you. Even if she has little money, she can 'borrow' it from her son. Certainly he has enough to get her a room, or maybe she could live with him and store her stuff in his garage for a few days. She is not your mother to take care of. You are running a business, so act like it!

In CA you get something like 17 days (check to be sure as I moved from CA in 2017) to give beck deposits, and in your case the rent would fall under this timeframe. You can do it earlier, but not before she is completely gone and you have checked everything for damage and you have her key and she signs that she is giving up possession of the house.

ONLY A FOOL REFUNDS THE RENT OR RETURNS THE DEPOSIT WHEN THE PERSON IS STILL LIVING THERE OR HAS POSESSIONS THERE.

Think about it, why is she living there even one day after she had breathing issues from your house?

Joe Luck

Real Estate Broker · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2015 · 3 posts · 2 votes

@Brandon Shoults

Don’t just give the money back. Get a signed & notarized “Holds Harmless” agreement you hopefully ensure that she doesn’t sue after you’ve returned the funds.

On another note, it typically would take longer than 10 days for a small amount of “mold” to affect her breathing.

Joe Luck

Real Estate Broker · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2015 · 3 posts · 2 votes

@Brandon Shoults

DO NOT GIVE MONEY BACK UNTIL SHE IS GONE & YOU HAVE KEYS IN HAND.

And stop talking to her son, he’s not a party to the lease agreement.

Scott Jeannerett

Investor · Gulfport, MS · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 15 votes

@Brandon Shoults my former partner had this same issue with a tenant just last year. She was an older lady who claimed that she was having issues due to mold yet there were no signs of mold anywhere. He got a mold inspector out to look and there was no mold anywhere and he was out $300 for the inspection. While the inspector was there he told my friend that he also owns rentals and gets the black mold accusation all the time. Apparently it’s a common tactic for some tenants. His advice was to tell the tenant that if they suspect that there is mold that they are more than welcome to hire a mold inspector and have the unit inspected, at their own expense. If mold is found, then you will refund them the money and have the mold problem taken care of. He said he sees this all the time and most of the time there is no mold.

3 Reply

San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

Originally posted by @Lynnette E.:

@Brandon Shoults before she moves out you MUST do a walk through or offer her a walk through of her space and tell her anything that needs to be cleaned or repaired. This is required in CA. Then you have a strict requirement to give her a list of the cost of the repairs/cleaning and refund by a certain timeline. So make sure you get an address to send this to her. If she is already gone and you did not offer her the inspection walk through do not keep any of her deposit. Huge damages against you if you do not follow that process.

And just to see how likely she or her son are of filing a lawsuit look their names up at the courthouse, or on-line. Make sure you check small claims court. They may do this for a living, or maybe they are just threatening you. If the have numerous cases, you may want to check in with your property/liability insurance agent.

Normally you would have to offer a walk-through - but - you don't have to if they are breaking the lease.

San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

@Account Closed So what are your thoughts on this. The tenant wants her prorated rent back before she actually gets her stuff out so she can lock down her next rental she has lined up. I feel like I'm continuing to get my but kicked here but I'd like to just give it to her so she can secure another place to stay. Honestly it seems like she has some mental health issues that I cant exactly pinpoint. Some people are just really odd. Very happy to see this woman out of my life. Although I Feel like giving her prorated rent money back before she even leaves is a really bad idea.

If you are okay with giving her all of her money back, tell her she gets it after all of her stuff is gone and the room is clean and she has handed you your keys and signed an agreement you wrote up about all of this. Meet her out front, exchange keys, and then immediately change the locks while still outside.

I've negotiated with tenants this way that I had to kick out - giving them their full security deposit money back in exchange for giving me an empty, decently clean apartment - and without just piling all their junk outside for me to deal with.

But, get her to sign a written agreement. Print out two copies, you sign both, make her sign both, give her one. But, do it outside and not until after she's gotten her stuff out and given you her key. And literally, have the new locks right there with your power screwdriver, etc., and change it right then and there.

If she wants to argue with that, go back to your original stance of - okay then, it will be 21 days, but you owe rent for every day your stuff is here and you don't get any money until you and your stuff is gone.

That's what I'd do anyway. She may have issues, but they don't have to be yours. She's a grownup woman who makes her own priorities about how she spends her money, etc. She knows who she can ask for money and who she can't, etc. She figures it doesn't hurt to ask because sometimes it works out. But, she's aware the answers are sometimes "no."

San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

Originally posted by @Joe Luck:

@Brandon Shoults

DO NOT GIVE MONEY BACK UNTIL SHE IS GONE & YOU HAVE KEYS IN HAND.

And stop talking to her son, he’s not a party to the lease agreement.

I so agree about not talking to anyone who isn't a party to the agreement. I stopped taking co-signers for students so I wouldn't have to deal with helicopter parents anymore lol. I could just say, sorry, I only talk to the tenants who are on the agreement.

I think the son doesn't want her living with him and that's why he's getting in the middle of everything. He probably also doesn't want to have to fork out any more money trying to get her settled, and so he's trying to get her move-in money back for her.

Just a guess, but I've been in similar situations.

This is an item I added to my criteria for things I would deny applicants for - if they show up with someone who said they weren't going to live in the unit, but they were doing all or most of the talking - and it wasn't a need for a translator. It inevitably means problems - either that person actually moves in, or they're a pain in the rear involving themselves. So, if this was the situation when they were applying, I denied their application. People with annoying people who involve themselves in their application - are not a protected class.

Ned J.Pro Member

Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

Do not under ANY circumstances give her ANY $$ until she is out and you have fully inspected the unit and gotten the keys back....NO EXCEPTIONS...

Greg Morris

Flipper/Rehabber · Spanish Fort, Ala · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 88 votes

Make sure there is no mold and all is corrected. Give her notice to move out. Wait and see what happens. Her son is giving her advise, there isn't like you have a history of complaints. Get her out asap.

Jacob Sampson

Investor · Topeka, KS · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

@Jacob Sampson Thanks for the advice! I need to screen tenants more for sure. Ironically the last two people to not give proper notice was a family member and then a friend. I like the advice to talk to a lawyer but id rather just give her the money back almost. It would probably cost the same if not more to have a sit down with a lawyer.

Yep. Don't mix business with friends and family.

I don't think you need to talk to an attorney about this situation in particular. I would lean towards giving her the cash back also, but you do need to talk to an attorney so you are aware of the local laws. It shouldn't cost much if anything. They may just print off the list of laws about tenant/landlord and give them to you.

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

Thanks for the advice Everyone. I Chose to take the advice of a really experienced colleague and returned her the prorated rent money back to she could secure her new place of residence. Bit of a risky move but it was only 400 dollars. Not a huge loss there. she moved out and cleaned the space as she agreed to and is out of my house and out of my hair. It seems like her son was pushing her to make the calls she did not want to. Either way she is out of the house. I returned her the security deposit and hopefully she wont come back to sue me. I did have her sign a hold harmless agreement stating her medical condition was not caused by staying here which she had already stated. I have not spoke with a lawyer yet as they all seem to be conveniently on vacation or not taking clients. Does anyone know the statute of limitations a tenant has to sue for mold after vacating ? hopefully they wont sue me but I am still seeking a attorney for how to protect myself in the future.

Ned J.Pro Member

Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

Nothing will come of this..... it takes $$ to hire a lawyer and 99.99% of tenants that threaten legal action after totally full of sh*t..... If you want piece of mind and to slam the door shut if they come after you, do an official mold inspection. The report stating there were no mold issue will stop any further concerns and be a smoking gun to kill their case if they come after you....which they won't. Its total overkill, but if its bothering you and keeping you up at night, then get the mold report and move on with your life and never give these people a second though again

OP

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

@Ned J. great idea. thanks Ned.

I happy to see this crazy lady gone.