Landlord claims damage; tenant claims wear and tear..

[Jayde Brown]

My question is in regards to wear and tear; specifically, plumbing below the floorboards and inside the walls on a 20-year-old rental cottage. If there is leak not readily noticeable, as in occurring inside the bathroom wall and down into the subfloor, is this considered wear and tear? Leak wasn’t a gusher, just a few little drops every 8-9 mins… 

Also is the toilet wax ring/bolts/supply line replacement- which was not due to misuse or abuse or damages, just age-the responsibility of the moved-out tenant to pay (taken out of security deposit)?  

Just want to hear your thoughts about wear and tear. TIA. 

[Jeremy Diaz]

Hello Jayde! 
In my professional opinion;

This would fall under regular property or building maintenance. What’s going on with plumbing, roof, structure, electrical etcetera… was there before a tenant lived there. It is recommended that you set aside money from profits to deal with these issues when they arise. Furthermore, always having reserves to deal with property maintenance. If an issue is caused by a tenant from neglect/improper use that could be another story 👍🏻 good luck and cheers !

[Melissa Hartvigsen]

Quote from @Jayde Brown:

My question is in regards to wear and tear; specifically, plumbing below the floorboards and inside the walls on a 20-year-old rental cottage. If there is leak not readily noticeable, as in occurring inside the bathroom wall and down into the subfloor, is this considered wear and tear? Leak wasn’t a gusher, just a few little drops every 8-9 mins… 

Also is the toilet wax ring/bolts/supply line replacement- which was not due to misuse or abuse or damages, just age-the responsibility of the moved-out tenant to pay (taken out of security deposit)?  

Just want to hear your thoughts about wear and tear. TIA. 

Hello Jayde,

A  leak occurring behind the wall and under the floorboards could not be attributed to the tenant.

 A new wax ring and bolts for toilet is also normal maintenance that needs to occur.

Do not charge the tenant for either of those items by withholding money from the deposit.  Both of these are normal maintenance items that are solely the landlords responsibility.

The real distinction, as to what is considered damage: obvious items that were caused by somebody’s misuse, or neglect.  Common things I have seen over the years: severely stained carpet, doors broken off hinges, holes in the walls, missing refrigerator shelves, broken blinds, etc.

Sincerely,

Melissa

[Ray Hage]

Hi, this stuff sounds like it could not really be the tenant's fault. Unfortunately, you'll have to foot the bill to fix these things but they shouldn't be terribly expensive. It depends on how bad/old the pipes are so it could turn into a larger expensive. I hope you have a trustworthy plumber regarding the leak. The toilet can easily be fixed by a handyman

[Chris Seveney]

@Jayde Brown

None of these items appear to be tenant responsibility based on how you wrote the post

[Theresa Harris]

If there was a leak in the pipe and the tenant knew but didn't let the landlord know then they (the tenant) have some responsibility.  A 20 year old cottage is not that old.

If the tenant didn't know about the leak and there were no visible signs of a leak, then it is regular maintenance.  Toilet ring-same thing unless the tenant did something to damage it.

[Ned J.]

Unless the tenant knew about and didn't say anything for significant time and more damage was created, then this is not on the tenant.

[William Powell]

According to what you wrote I'd take care of it myself and refund the tenants their security deposit. Good news is you needed this done and now it can be handled. Knock this stuff out, paint, and hurry and get the place rented again. 

[Allan Smith]

That is on the landlord to pay as it is upkeep of the property, however if there is an egregious leak that is not reported to the landlord, in my lease that is negligence by the tenant and billed back to the tenant.

[Richard F.]

Quote from @Jayde Brown:

My question is in regards to wear and tear; specifically, plumbing below the floorboards and inside the walls on a 20-year-old rental cottage. If there is leak not readily noticeable, as in occurring inside the bathroom wall and down into the subfloor, is this considered wear and tear? Leak wasn’t a gusher, just a few little drops every 8-9 mins… 

Also is the toilet wax ring/bolts/supply line replacement- which was not due to misuse or abuse or damages, just age-the responsibility of the moved-out tenant to pay (taken out of security deposit)?  

Just want to hear your thoughts about wear and tear. TIA. 

Aloha,

Leaks in the wall or subfloor are always going to be Owner responsibility, as the cause is most likely age and corrosion (which often causes cracking of the iron due to expansion) of the pipes themselves or failure of no-hub bands typically found at prior repair points. Although I have had on two occasions found a drywall screw that penetrated a copper supply pipe during the normal course of construction (the pipes were not properly placed or protected), when the screws, after several years, corroded enough to spring a leak.

Wax rings and supply line/stop valve replacements are also always going to be Owner responsibility, absent clear evidence of intentional physical damage. Your fill and flush valves are also Owner responsibility. Cheap flush levers that break easily could be charged to a Tenant, but I would not...I would replace with better quality metal assembly.

"Normal wear and tear" generally refers to minor scuffs, scrapes, and scratches, chipped corners, and simple wear from repetitive use. The amount and number of these blemishes can certainly rise to "Abnormal wear". This differs from intentional damage, and damage caused from misuse.

Ultimately, a Judge will make the final determination, which is why it is critical to have excellent documentation and photos of pre-move in, and of move out conditions, prior to initiating ANY cleaning or repairs.

[Nathan Gesner]

Quote from @Jayde Brown:

Welcome to the BiggerPockets forums!

You can't be held responsible for something you are unaware of.

If the leaks were noticeable, then you have a responsibility to report them. If you fail to report them and it causes damage, you may be held liable for the damages.

[Jayde Brown]

Quote from @Allan Smith:

That is on the landlord to pay as it is upkeep of the property, however if there is an egregious leak that is not reported to the landlord, in my lease that is negligence by the tenant and billed back to the tenant.

 Yes, exactly! If it’s such a tiny - but steady- slow leak that appeared to be from somewhere inside the wall, (let’s assume for illustrative purposes about 2 tablespoons of water leaked a day for X-number of days) down to the stop angle and from there, onto the floor, it’s not going to be noticeable until it’s done some potentially serious damage (in my case, the ceiling below this leaking half bath was showing black mold and water damage).  At what point does this leak become the tenant’s fault? This leak was discovered during a routine walk-through two weeks before the tenant’s lease was expiring. A prior routine walk-through which occurred four months before, did not find any obvious signs of water leakages etc. 

[Jayde Brown]

Quote from @Richard F.:

Quote from @Jayde Brown:

My question is in regards to wear and tear; specifically, plumbing below the floorboards and inside the walls on a 20-year-old rental cottage. If there is leak not readily noticeable, as in occurring inside the bathroom wall and down into the subfloor, is this considered wear and tear? Leak wasn’t a gusher, just a few little drops every 8-9 mins… 

Also is the toilet wax ring/bolts/supply line replacement- which was not due to misuse or abuse or damages, just age-the responsibility of the moved-out tenant to pay (taken out of security deposit)?  

Just want to hear your thoughts about wear and tear. TIA. 

Aloha,

Leaks in the wall or subfloor are always going to be Owner responsibility, as the cause is most likely age and corrosion (which often causes cracking of the iron due to expansion) of the pipes themselves or failure of no-hub bands typically found at prior repair points. Although I have had on two occasions found a drywall screw that penetrated a copper supply pipe during the normal course of construction (the pipes were not properly placed or protected), when the screws, after several years, corroded enough to spring a leak.

Wax rings and supply line/stop valve replacements are also always going to be Owner responsibility, absent clear evidence of intentional physical damage. Your fill and flush valves are also Owner responsibility. Cheap flush levers that break easily could be charged to a Tenant, but I would not...I would replace with better quality metal assembly.

"Normal wear and tear" generally refers to minor scuffs, scrapes, and scratches, chipped corners, and simple wear from repetitive use. The amount and number of these blemishes can certainly rise to "Abnormal wear". This differs from intentional damage, and damage caused from misuse.

Ultimately, a Judge will make the final determination, which is why it is critical to have excellent documentation and photos of pre-move in, and of move out conditions, prior to initiating ANY cleaning or repairs.

Aloha! In this case I am the on-island contact for this rental as the owners live on the mainland. They want to use the tenant’s entire security deposit, plus demand even more additional money from this tenant, to pay for the new floor and ceiling. Upon further examination, I discovered that the leaking upstairs half bath is not permitted, it’s not on the tax map key at all. The TMK says this cottage only has 1 full bath, not 1.5 bath as was advertised at the time the tenant signed the lease. I also found failed plumbing inspections from when the cottage was being built in 2002. Is the discovery of this information of much use, as the tenant is filing a claim for the return of the security deposit?

[Richard F.]

Based on the brief info you have provided, there is no way the Tenant should be charged. Significant damage does not occur from such an apparently small leak over such a short period. All the other permitting and inspection issues you note are irrelevant, if the Tenant takes it to Small Claims a Judge will find in favor of Tenant, and potentially charge up to 3X rent as damages against the OWNER for wasting the Court's time.

[Jayde Brown]

Mahalo! @richardf.

[Andrew Syrios]

If the leak was unnoticeable, I would think that it's on the landlord. If the leak was clear and the tenant didn't call it in, then I would say it's on the tenant. Unfortunately, there's always a degree of subjectivity with these things. 

Wax ring would be on the landlord

[Scott Mac]

Owner should pay for the repairs.

Never bother the renter about it.

If its leaking in one wall it may be leaking in others.

See if your water meter is sniping when all water is turned off, if so you may have a leak.

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-smart-water-leak-detectors

Good Luck!

[Jayde Brown]

Sink/Angle stops condition at move-in Condition at move-out one year later

[Jayde Brown]

Ceiling below the leaking bathroom.

[Richard F.]

If it does not meet a typical Tenant's definition of "flooding" (which usually amounts to no more than a cup of water on the floor), it is not likely they ever noticed it, especially behind the pedestal. If it were an enclosed vanity cabinet, then there likely would have been more visible evidence, but even at that, a small stain or few drips inside the vanity would also not rise to the level of a Tenant taking the initiative to report it. Keep in mind, many Tenants simply believe that calling for any repairs WILL result in increased rent at next opportunity, so it needs to be significantly impacting the Tenant for them to report an issue, more often than not. You can argue semantics with them, but the leak may well be coming from the supply line connection up at the faucet, or the unseen connections of the trap and waste line, which look to be an inexpensive, and thin, HD type product that is prone to leaking with ANY movement.

In the last photo, it looks like the crown molding has significant damage at the top of the right end of trim. That did not happen in 4 months. Considering the area of the stain on that ceiling, either the ceiling is not level, or there may be an additional leak in that outer wall. Open the ceiling and follow the water! Don't waste time speculating about the unseen source, or fixing only the pedestal sink and "wait" to see if any more leakage shows up.