Live in Flip Financing

Live in Flip Financing

Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 138 posts · 87 votes

We are looking to do a live in flip in our current market. Here's the strategy: Purchase the home, live in until we move, place tenants, after 2 years, sell the property. The home is a 2/1 listed a 90k, I believe we will offer half of that and negotiate from there, renovate the home to a 3/2, my realtor believes ARV is 150-165 depending on how many bedrooms we put in. That being send how can we finance this?

When I spoke with a lender today, she suggested the FHA 203k loan. She stated once the home was ours under contract, the lender would appraise the home based on the after rehab status of the home, the appraisal number would be the number to determine 3.5% down. We would then get estimates on the rehab, and the lender would lend us money based on how much the rehab estimates were.

So my main point is this.  Where do we make profit? If the appraiser knows we're putting in $X plus purchase price, it will most likely be appraised at that amount, then the loan would be that much, so how would money be made on the sale?  My guess is that money is made by using less than the estimated cost of rehab?

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Chris MasonPro Member
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Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Patrick James:

@Adam Widder I think you are trying to combine too many tactics here. If you are not going to live in it for at least two years before selling, in most circumstances you are going to get hit with capital gains taxes. You might as well just buy an investment and flip it. Second, if you finance the rehab costs into it then the lenders appraisal is going to be pretty darn close to the final number. So when you go to sell, unless your market skyrockets, you are not going to make much if any after only making a handful of payments.


In my opinion the better option is to put the 3.5% down (FHA), put your blood, sweat, tears and money into it. When done with the rehab, refinance it and drop the PMI. Live in it for two years, then sell it or rent it out and run with the passive income. Then repeat all over again.

 I agree with this. 203k requires the use of an arms length GC for everything. Boom there went all your profit. Unless, of course, you are an insider in your local GC community. 

Many think that 5% down conventional SFR is just for first-time homebuyers. Nope. Can do it over and over and over again. Fulfill your 12 month owner occupancy promise while fixing the place up for six months, and spending the next six months saving up your next 5% down. Convert the old one into a rental each time.

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  • Real Estate Agent · West Linn, OR · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 9 votes
    8y

    @Adam Widder I think you are trying to combine too many tactics here. If you are not going to live in it for at least two years before selling, in most circumstances you are going to get hit with capital gains taxes. You might as well just buy an investment and flip it. Second, if you finance the rehab costs into it then the lenders appraisal is going to be pretty darn close to the final number. So when you go to sell, unless your market skyrockets, you are not going to make much if any after only making a handful of payments.


    In my opinion the better option is to put the 3.5% down (FHA), put your blood, sweat, tears and money into it. When done with the rehab, refinance it and drop the PMI. Live in it for two years, then sell it or rent it out and run with the passive income. Then repeat all over again.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Patrick James:

    @Adam Widder I think you are trying to combine too many tactics here. If you are not going to live in it for at least two years before selling, in most circumstances you are going to get hit with capital gains taxes. You might as well just buy an investment and flip it. Second, if you finance the rehab costs into it then the lenders appraisal is going to be pretty darn close to the final number. So when you go to sell, unless your market skyrockets, you are not going to make much if any after only making a handful of payments.


    In my opinion the better option is to put the 3.5% down (FHA), put your blood, sweat, tears and money into it. When done with the rehab, refinance it and drop the PMI. Live in it for two years, then sell it or rent it out and run with the passive income. Then repeat all over again.

     I agree with this. 203k requires the use of an arms length GC for everything. Boom there went all your profit. Unless, of course, you are an insider in your local GC community. 

    Many think that 5% down conventional SFR is just for first-time homebuyers. Nope. Can do it over and over and over again. Fulfill your 12 month owner occupancy promise while fixing the place up for six months, and spending the next six months saving up your next 5% down. Convert the old one into a rental each time.

  • Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 138 posts · 87 votes
    8y

    Thanks guys, I think we're going to pass on the property. There's another triplex in town I'll use these stratedy on it to house hack. It needs rehb as well but more cosmetic whereas that previously mentioned SFR needs significant rehab and we're not comfortable doing everything.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Patrick James:

    @Adam Widder I think you are trying to combine too many tactics here. If you are not going to live in it for at least two years before selling, in most circumstances you are going to get hit with capital gains taxes. You might as well just buy an investment and flip it. Second, if you finance the rehab costs into it then the lenders appraisal is going to be pretty darn close to the final number. So when you go to sell, unless your market skyrockets, you are not going to make much if any after only making a handful of payments.


    In my opinion the better option is to put the 3.5% down (FHA), put your blood, sweat, tears and money into it. When done with the rehab, refinance it and drop the PMI. Live in it for two years, then sell it or rent it out and run with the passive income. Then repeat all over again.

    I'm thinking about using this strategy for my next deal. I plan to live in it and decide later on whether to sell or rent. Would the analysis be the same as for BRRR? Apply the 70% rule for this to work? What type of financing can you get with this? I'd like to refinance within a year to recoup repair costs, closing costs, down payment, etc. How would you get this strategy to work?

    Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 138 posts · 87 votes
    8y

    @Jason C. So generally, put down whatever you want to, 3.5 FHA, VA, 5% conventional if SF or 15% conventional if MFR.  You will most likely use one of those products if you're living in the residence, which you said you were.  Essentially yes it's a BRRRR through your own financing and not not using anybody else's, but since you're living in the property you are BRRRR the property to yourself in financing terms if that makes sense.  There's no outside financing, just what you are providing.  

    Example: you put 3.5% FHA down, occupy, renovate, live in for a period of time, refinance, then rent.

    Yes, you will want to check the numbers, it will need to be in a place where you can get equity, so in disrepair, or purchased will below ARV in order for you to get the equity to count on the refi.

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    8y

    The 203K loan would lend to you based on the purchase price plus the repairs from my understanding, not the appraised value. I'm not a mortgage broker but I'm almost positive that's right. So your profit would come in when you actually sold the property assuming you had equity in it.

  • Real Estate Agent · West Linn, OR · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 9 votes
    8y

    @Jason C. I myself do not use the 70% rule. When we go to look for a house to live-in BRRRR, we look in an area with good rental numbers, then find a less than desirable house in a great neighborhood. Depending on what your qualifications are for a loan you'll have FHA or Conv. We like to go the conventional route, with lowest down payment possible to free up cash for improvements. Assuming your improvements boost the homes value then do a cash-out refi and pay yourself back and help fund the next project. Now, obviously your rent has to cover your new mortgage plus all the other operating costs to meet your required net income your looking for. This is why we look in areas for good rental numbers. If you plan to sell then you would need to reside for at least 2 years to stay away from capital gains taxes, with exceptions of course but that is for your professionals to guide you on. In addition, you'd have commissions to payout on the sale and closing costs again.

    I hope this helps a bit and it may be a little high level but the basics are there.

    Cheers,

  • Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 138 posts · 87 votes
    8y

    @Patrick James thats a good summary. thats exactly what we ended up doing with this property, closing soon!

  • North Texas · Member since 2019 · 14 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    Could somebody explain the refi process in a live-in flip? If you buy a house with a conventional loan and then use a personal loan or private money for the renovation costs, can you then do a cash-out refinance to consolidate debt (pay off the original mortgage and whatever debt was accrued for the renovations)? At that point, you would have a conventional mortgage until you move out. 

    I guess I’m wondering about how that works and how people approach it. If the original conventional loan has a low rate, would you get a home equity loan instead to just pay off any high interest debt obtained for the renovations or is it better to get a cash-out refinance? I realize this is all dependent on the numbers so I don’t expect a definitive answer, I’m just wondering what others have done.

    Thanks!

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