Using life settlements to finance real estate acquisitions

Using life settlements to finance real estate acquisitions

Wholesaler · Pompano Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 1 vote

I have been buying and selling real estate for about fifteen years in several different states.  I have had major ups and downs both in spite of and despite the pricing bubble that we experienced.  Mine has been a success story but perhaps my biggest source of frustration has always been my limitation in sourcing the necessary equity component to get more deals done aggressively.  I guess one of the biggest lessons that I have learned in the real estate field is the usefulness of leverage as a potentially helpful, but also potentially harmful tool. I've always liked the idea of being able to tie up 5-10x the dollar amount that I put down to purchase a property, rent it out and collect rental income.  I recently did a deal with a guy who I have known for about 10 years and I was amazed at how well he has done.  We talked shop for a while and he told me that he has been able to get equity for his deals through some sort of life settlement structure using insurance policies that he purchases at a discount from people who are perceived to be terminally ill, aged or some other reason why there is a higher likelihood that the policy could be redeemed for a higher value.  I'm not exactly sure how it is supposed to work, but it sounds like it might have merit.  I asked him to get me more information about it but he said that "the minimum investment was way higher than something I would ever be comfortable with doing" and didn't really want to talk about it.  Sorry for my long preamble, but I was wondering if anyone on here has had experience with this sort of thing or knew where I could get more information about it?  Can I actually leverage my existing funds into higher equity amounts to invest with?

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
10y

They're called Viaticals, and have been around a long time.  There are also some notable ponzi schemes involving "investing" in viaticals.

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  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    They're called Viaticals, and have been around a long time.  There are also some notable ponzi schemes involving "investing" in viaticals.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Wayne Brooks  I was at an entrust vegas presentation ( my SIDRA was with them) and these guys got up and talked about this then the next thing I see them on American Greed LOL

    there are those that do it straight up though but I don't see how you can use it for equity in RE.

    you buy a policy at steep discount and prey the person expires as soon as possible.. this increases your yield..

  • Real Estate Professional · Saint James, NY · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    They do work, our group right now has identified a policy to purchase which is at a very good discount, however I like for alot of medical conditions to be present such as HIV, Canceran, and certain medications to be prescribed so as to bring alot of co-morbidities in which plays a factor in the mortality rate which makes them suspect to death. We look for a number of things in addition to low life expectancy. We are actually purchasing one right now for 175k split between 3 partners ( we have 2 partners and are seeking 1 more) its a 5 million dollar policy and the patientispre  dicted to live a few months more. Now this is an extreme case and you probably dont bump into that every day but thats what we look for and we do 2 of these every  year. Last time we made out on a purchase of 300k and a return of 3million in 5 months split between 4 partners. WES till do this and are looking for more partners. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Mark Grigsby  yes this is what you sold.. good luck.. what happens when they have a miraculous recovery and live another 20 years your dollars are tied up.

    its betting on death.. and some kind of cringe on that.. I know I was sitting next to Bruce Norris

    in the presentation and we just kind of looked at each other and shrugged. .I know it happens but its freakin morbid dude..

    and there are ALOT Of scammers who totally screw people on these deals.. good luck with it .

    @Wayne Brooks  this is one of the most vial investment vehicles I have seen in all my years.. but I know life insurance companies do it every day.. and maybe some folks who are terminal and have a good policy want to get cash now so they can see the world. I get that also..  lots of fraud in this industry

  • Real Estate Professional · Saint James, NY · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    True, you just have to watch out from who you buy.

  • Wholesaler · Pompano Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Mark Grigsby I'm sure it's like most things in business where the "devil is in the details".  The difference between a mutual fund and a Bernie Madoff scam comes down to the details... what I want to know is what is possible with this vehicle?  What kind of leverage can be obtained?  I have googled this subject and I am seeing all sorts of conflicting information.  How do I know it is legit and what dollar amounts are needed?  How do I separate the fact from the fiction?

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Mark Grigsby:

    They do work, our group right now has identified a policy to purchase which is at a very good discount, however I like for alot of medical conditions to be present such as HIV, Canceran, and certain medications to be prescribed so as to bring alot of co-morbidities in which plays a factor in the mortality rate which makes them suspect to death. We look for a number of things in addition to low life expectancy. We are actually purchasing one right now for 175k split between 3 partners ( we have 2 partners and are seeking 1 more) its a 5 million dollar policy and the patientispre  dicted to live a few months more. Now this is an extreme case and you probably dont bump into that every day but thats what we look for and we do 2 of these every  year. Last time we made out on a purchase of 300k and a return of 3million in 5 months split between 4 partners. WES till do this and are looking for more partners. 

     Honestly, this is despicable. I don't know how you can go to sleep at night doing this. Maybe one day you will realize there is more meaning to life than taking money from people. You are a disgusting human being for even writing the first part of your paragraph.

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Reminds me of this story:- http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/29/world/a-120-year...

    "Thirty years ago, Andre-Francois Raffray, bottom, agreed to pay Jeanne Calment 2,500 francs a month to get her apartment when she died; she was 90 then. She has not died yet, but this week he did"!

    "'In life, one sometimes makes bad deals', Mrs. Calment said on her birthday last Feb. 21."...

  • Wholesaler · Pompano Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Andrey Y. Do you mean the whole life insurance industry is despicable?  How about the whole insurance industry for taking money from people?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @John Wright  this is simply the settlement business.. you can do it in many forms.

    you can buy for instance

    Judgements that are awarded folks in litigation or buy the litigation case.

    Lottery yearly payouts.. those folks never have enough money.

    Life settlements as mentioned in this thread

    there are all kinds of deferred pay options out there... the betting on an early death is one of them.

    the industry is full of fraud from what I have seen and heard.. I would talk to experts at this before you venture into it.

    I just did not see how you can leverage it for equity for RE deals.  you can buy them and get paid back and make a return..

  • Real Estate Professional · Saint James, NY · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Every industry has fraud. So fraud is everywhere really. Just do your homework and dont risk too much.

  • Wholesaler · Pompano Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs I've had it explained to me that somehow you can use this as a leveraging vehicle so not only do you get the returns but you can borrow off of the unrealized gains (the paper returns) and do it that way.  Is this not true?

    Anyway, as far as the life settlements is dirty claim...I have made a lot of money in low income housing. Much to my chagrin, when I was first starting out I had friends, neighbors, and women I was dating constantly insinuated that I was a "slum lord." A lot of people think the landlord business is despicable.... especially when we raise rents. This seems ludicrous to me as I sometime have to really stretch myself to the brink to bring my properties up to spec so that they will be approved by HUD. When I tried to explain to them that the people I was helping to house were literally one step away from being on the street they stuck to their guns and continued to infer that I was a slum lord. Since I became successful people now accuse me of being a greedy capitalist while I pay far higher taxes than they do. I suppose one person's filthy business is another person's salvation.

    @Jay Hinrichs

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    I just don't know how you would leverage a debt obligation without selling it further to someone else to raise capital.. I get the buy it and make a return.. I just question how you buy it then leverage it.

    Low end rentals has their place... just look at every city in the mid west and deep south.. there are literally a million of them... nothing to be worried about there. if your homes are hud standard then your doing a fine job with them.. you have to get them inspected once a year and brought up to snuff.

    If you have the time and pateints to deal with this demographic then that's great I know many that do.. one company I fund in MS has about 250 of these I funded them all for them.. so I get it.

  • Wholesaler · Pompano Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs  Thank you for the kind response.  I hope that business is good for you up in your area.

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @John Wright:

    @Andrey Y. Do you mean the whole life insurance industry is despicable?  How about the whole insurance industry for taking money from people?

     ********. We all can choose how we make money in this world. What he described "its better and we look for patients with HIV and Cancer" is deplorable. We all can choose whether or not to be ethical.

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @John Wright:

    @Jay Hinrichs I've had it explained to me that somehow you can use this as a leveraging vehicle so not only do you get the returns but you can borrow off of the unrealized gains (the paper returns) and do it that way.  Is this not true?

    Anyway, as far as the life settlements is dirty claim...I have made a lot of money in low income housing. Much to my chagrin, when I was first starting out I had friends, neighbors, and women I was dating constantly insinuated that I was a "slum lord." A lot of people think the landlord business is despicable.... especially when we raise rents. This seems ludicrous to me as I sometime have to really stretch myself to the brink to bring my properties up to spec so that they will be approved by HUD. When I tried to explain to them that the people I was helping to house were literally one step away from being on the street they stuck to their guns and continued to infer that I was a slum lord. Since I became successful people now accuse me of being a greedy capitalist while I pay far higher taxes than they do. I suppose one person's filthy business is another person's salvation.

    @Jay Hinrichs

     Providing clean, affordable, safe, and functional housing is not despicable. And a farcry from what that human being (used loosely) described.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Brent Coombs  I just corralled a life estate deal I did... it took 12 years.. :)... now in a highly appreciating market like Portland I am going to come out pretty good.. if this had been a flat market then it would have not been good at all.. as the lady lived there until she passed for free. 

    I like those deals though not easy to find and might not do more than one or two in a career but it was cool.. I took the burden from her.. she did not have to move.. reverse mortgage was not an option as she owed what it was worth at the time.. we paid off the debt.. paid taxs all these years and insruacne she just paid for her utls.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Andrey Y.  yup as I posted when I saw the presentation in Vegas in a room full of investors about half the room got up and left.. so it does take all kinds...

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 808 posts · 417 votes
    10y

    @Andrey Y.

    Your thoughts on the industry are true in relation to some but most life settlement players would not play in that market. Most are dealing with people who do not have a life threatening illness since the former is where a lot of issues happen, the outcome is far less certain and the prices are obviously higher. Most are just doing pure math in terms of life expectancy and those are more in the range of 8 - 10 years . 

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