Replacing boiler and old forced air AC with Heat Pump in Chicago

[Brandon Brown]

My wife and I own a two-flat in Chicago, and we're planning to upgrade our heating system. Currently, we have boilers and radiators that we want to remove to create space in the basement for a future conversion into another dwelling unit. The basement meets all the criteria for a dwelling unit in Chicago, but we need to go through the re-zoning process.

In addition, we have old R22 forced air units that we want to replace with a heat pump. Chicago winters can be harsh, so we're curious if anyone has had a good experience using a heat pump with an ancillary heat strip for those extremely cold days when the heat pump can't keep up. We know that a dual fuel system would be more optimal, but the cost of running a gas line and venting is likely higher than adding another circuit for the heat strip.

Furthermore, we are looking for recommendations for an HVAC installer in Chicago. We plan to provide all the HVAC equipment ourselves, so we need someone who is willing to install it. Unfortunately, none of the larger HVAC companies in Chicago are willing to install equipment they haven't sold.

Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

[Garfield M.]

Quote from @Brandon Brown:

My wife and I own a two-flat in Chicago, and we're planning to upgrade our heating system. Currently, we have boilers and radiators that we want to remove to create space in the basement for a future conversion into another dwelling unit. The basement meets all the criteria for a dwelling unit in Chicago, but we need to go through the re-zoning process.

In addition, we have old R22 forced air units that we want to replace with a heat pump. Chicago winters can be harsh, so we're curious if anyone has had a good experience using a heat pump with an ancillary heat strip for those extremely cold days when the heat pump can't keep up. We know that a dual fuel system would be more optimal, but the cost of running a gas line and venting is likely higher than adding another circuit for the heat strip.

Furthermore, we are looking for recommendations for an HVAC installer in Chicago. We plan to provide all the HVAC equipment ourselves, so we need someone who is willing to install it. Unfortunately, none of the larger HVAC companies in Chicago are willing to install equipment they haven't sold.

Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

 No personal experience here but here's a helpful reference from someone who wrote a blog about different aspects of a 2 flat remodel in Chicago 

Scroll to "Two-flat journal 6: How to make an all-electric house" - - speaks a little about heat pumps and cost In the HVAC section.  

https://www.stevencanplan.com/tag/two-flat-journal/

[John Warren]

@Brandon Brown if you are serious about the ADU, then you will want to talk to an architect before embarking on this journey. @Samuel Pavlovcik has added a great deal of value in the past to folks looking to add units. It is expensive. I would plan for 75-150k, which normally shocks people. 

In terms of your HVAC question, I have a client who has installed heating pumps. The technology is there, but it is hard to find hvac installers in Chicago who "get it" since heat pumps are not common here yet. 

Which neighborhood are you in? I have a few good hvac vendors I have worked with who would install equipment they didn't provide. 

[Matthew Paul]

When that heat strip on a heat pump kicks in your electric bill will soar .  Now you could keep 1 boiler and put in a coil in the ductwork and use it as emergency heat .  As far as you supplying the equipment and just having someone install it . Good luck with that , even if you do the company will still make the same , they will just charge more for the install and you will get no warranty . 

[Brandon Brown]

Quote from @John Warren:

@Brandon Brown if you are serious about the ADU, then you will want to talk to an architect before embarking on this journey. @Samuel Pavlovcik has added a great deal of value in the past to folks looking to add units. It is expensive. I would plan for 75-150k, which normally shocks people. 

In terms of your HVAC question, I have a client who has installed heating pumps. The technology is there, but it is hard to find hvac installers in Chicago who "get it" since heat pumps are not common here yet. 

Which neighborhood are you in? I have a few good hvac vendors I have worked with who would install equipment they didn't provide. 

We are committed to pursuing the ADU in the future, though it's probably still 1-2 years away. Thank you for the recommendation; I'll keep him in mind when we're ready to proceed. We live in Avondale and would appreciate any recommendations you have for HVAC installers. I have one coming over this morning for an installation quote, but I'd like to gather a few more quotes to compare pricing.

[Daniel Baker]

Give this guy a call, I use him all the time.  He will give you an honest quote.

https://www.callairkings.com

[Jonathan Klemm]

Hey There @Brandon Brown - Checking in to see if you ended up moving forward with the heat pump and heat strips?  I am not super familiar with the heat pumps...is there a reason you just wouldn't do forced air without the R22 Freon?

I have a couple pretty good Chicago HVAC subcontractors that may be will to work labor only.

[Brandon Brown]

Hi @Jonathan Klemm, we haven't started it yet because we are still weighing all our options. I am 99% sure we aren't going to go the heat strip route since it would involve upgrading the electrical panel and service. 

I believe what we will do is use an ultra efficient ducted heat pump system with dual fuel capabilities, so that it will use the heat pump a majority of the time and switch over to using the gas furnace for when it can't keep up.

If you have some trusted HVAC subcontractors I would love their contact info.

[Jonathan Klemm]

@Brandon Brown you have either done a boat load of research or have background in mechanicals!  Super technical thinking going on with planning your system.  

I didn't even know they had systems with dual fuel capabilities...how exactly does that work?  It would just switch over once it's at max capacity?

I will send you a private message with my guy Francisco, a super sharp HVAC sub in Chicago.

[Brandon Brown]

Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

@Brandon Brown you have either done a boat load of research or have background in mechanicals!  Super technical thinking going on with planning your system.  

I didn't even know they had systems with dual fuel capabilities...how exactly does that work?  It would just switch over once it's at max capacity?

I will send you a private message with my guy Francisco, a super sharp HVAC sub in Chicago.

I'm a software engineer at an online retailer specializing in HVAC equipment. While we don’t handle installations, our focus is on selling the right products. Our sales staff is highly trained in helping customers identify the best HVAC solutions for their needs, and we have technicians with prior installation experience who provide valuable support.

Dual fuel systems combine a traditional furnace with a coil designed for use with a heat pump. These systems allow you to program which fuel source to use based on efficiency, automatically switching to the other source when needed. In my case, I will primarily use the heat pump because it has higher efficiency and can handle heating down to -5°F. Since the temperature in my area only drops below -5°F twice a year on average, the heat pump effectively covers 99.5% of the heating needs.

There is a plethora of combinations that you can achieve using just mini splits. We have over 300,000 unique combinations currently with new product lines being added all the time.

[Jonathan Klemm]

Wow lol Thank you for clarifying your background...that makes SOOO much more sense @Brandon Brown!  

Now I also understand why one of our HVAC subcontractors always cautions against mini splits. When it gets too cold, the pump won't function. Does that mean the system will break down below -5 degrees F, or will it still work?

Do you sell the entire system or just parts?  Lots of our clients are interested in mini splits, but they always seem too expensive...all our subs tend to only like Mitsubishi, which is pricy.

[Brandon Brown]

Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

Wow lol Thank you for clarifying your background...that makes SOOO much more sense @Brandon Brown!  

Now I also understand why one of our HVAC subcontractors always cautions against mini splits. When it gets too cold, the pump won't function. Does that mean the system will break down below -5 degrees F, or will it still work?

Do you sell the entire system or just parts?  Lots of our clients are interested in mini splits, but they always seem too expensive...all our subs tend to only like Mitsubishi, which is pricy.

The heat pump will indeed still function in colder temperatures, but its heating capacity gradually decreases as the temperature drops. The numbers I'll provide are just an example of a random heat pump, and the actual performance can vary slightly depending on the manufacturer, design, and the components they are combined with. For instance:

• At 0°F, a 36,000 BTU heat pump might still deliver close to its full capacity, around 37,000 BTUs.
• At -4°F, the capacity might decrease slightly to about 35,800 BTUs.
• At -13°F, the capacity could further drop to around 32,000 BTUs.
• At -22°F, you might only get about 28,000 BTUs.

This reduction in capacity occurs because, as the outdoor temperature decreases, the heat pump has to work harder to extract heat from the air, which becomes more challenging as it gets colder. However, the system itself will not "break down" at temperatures below -5°F. Instead, it will continue to operate, but with reduced efficiency and output. So having a dual fuel system allows it to switch over automatically on the really cold days when the heat pump can't keep up. However there are some systems that can operate at 118% heating capacity down to -15°.

We sell entire systems along with installation parts and individual components of a system. I believe we have very competitive prices. We also offer unlimited tech support to all of our customers and have several warehouses with a lot of inventory that allow us to do 1-2 day delivery in a lot of cases. I don't know what the rules are for posting links here but I can send a private message with our website and you can take a look.

[Jonathan Klemm]

This is great information @Brandon Brown.  Any Chicago investor should make sure to linkup with this guy because I hear so many people talking about wanting mini-splits that have no idea about these details (like me haha).

@Dev Patel - This is what Matt with Ductec is talking about regarding using mini-splits in Chicago.