How do you set your target profits for flips?

How do you set your target profits for flips?

Flipper/Rehabber · Twinsburg, OH · Member since 2017 · 40 posts · 27 votes

Hey folks,

We're in the East Cleveland market looking at buying SFH's to flip. For those with experience doing rehabs, what's your target profit margin you look for evaluating deals?

We've been going for a 20% profit off sales price but the markets pretty tight and when analyzing properties we typically don't think we'll be able to achieve those targets without asking for $10K or less than the listing price, which sellers aren't willing to bit on.

We're trying alternate forms of finding properties (driving for dollars, tax delinquent lists, and auctions) as well. But for anyone with experience doing rehabs through the the MLS, what's the target return you go for when buying a house? Any recommendations on how you modify your plans during a seller's market or how we should be thinking about this? I understand some profits is better than no profits but we don't want to tie up too much cash and time in a 6 month project that isn't going to move the needle much for us.

Thanks for your help.

Here's an example:

Property is listed at $65K. We think we can rehab it for $40K (including holding costs and closing costs) which would make total cash needed at $105K. We estimate we can sell it for $120K, making a $15K profit.

However, a 20% return on $120K is $24K, so to achieve that target we'd need to buy the house for $56K instead of $65K, which hasn't made us very successful so far.

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Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Luke Terry:

Hey folks,

We're in the East Cleveland market looking at buying SFH's to flip. For those with experience doing rehabs, what's your target profit margin you look for evaluating deals?

We've been going for a 20% profit off sales price but the markets pretty tight and when analyzing properties we typically don't think we'll be able to achieve those targets without asking for $10K or less than the listing price, which sellers aren't willing to bit on.

We're trying alternate forms of finding properties (driving for dollars, tax delinquent lists, and auctions) as well. But for anyone with experience doing rehabs through the the MLS, what's the target return you go for when buying a house? Any recommendations on how you modify your plans during a seller's market or how we should be thinking about this? I understand some profits is better than no profits but we don't want to tie up too much cash and time in a 6 month project that isn't going to move the needle much for us.

Thanks for your help.

Here's an example:

Property is listed at $65K. We think we can rehab it for $40K (including holding costs and closing costs) which would make total cash needed at $105K. We estimate we can sell it for $120K, making a $15K profit.

However, a 20% return on $120K is $24K, so to achieve that target we'd need to buy the house for $56K instead of $65K, which hasn't made us very successful so far.

 The market is, what the market is. The market doesn't care what you want to make on a deal. If others are willing to pay $65k but you want to pay $56k the market doesn't care about you.

What you need to do now is understand what's out there & figure out how you can create a competitive advantage over your competition. If your business is set up where you need to pay $56k but others are able to pay $65k what can you do to allow yourself to pay $66k???

You need to lower your costs. You can become a Realtor yourself to save those costs, you can do a lot of renovation work to cut costs. What else can you do to create that edge?

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  • Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 545 posts · 614 votes
    8y
    @Luke Terry You also need to factor taxes on the sale of the flip. I often see people showing their numbers and not factoring in the tax on sale. The 15k profit you're showing is actually less after taxes.
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Twinsburg, OH · Member since 2017 · 40 posts · 27 votes
    8y

    @Ray Johnson I agree.  That's something we typically factor in but I didn't in this example.  Thanks

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 89 posts · 65 votes
    8y
    Work your numbers backwards from ARV. Use the 70% ARV minus rehab and then factor in 10% for closing and realtor fees. You should be able to build your margin into the deal. If the numbers don’t work, then it isn’t a deal.
  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Luke Terry:

    Hey folks,

    We're in the East Cleveland market looking at buying SFH's to flip. For those with experience doing rehabs, what's your target profit margin you look for evaluating deals?

    We've been going for a 20% profit off sales price but the markets pretty tight and when analyzing properties we typically don't think we'll be able to achieve those targets without asking for $10K or less than the listing price, which sellers aren't willing to bit on.

    We're trying alternate forms of finding properties (driving for dollars, tax delinquent lists, and auctions) as well. But for anyone with experience doing rehabs through the the MLS, what's the target return you go for when buying a house? Any recommendations on how you modify your plans during a seller's market or how we should be thinking about this? I understand some profits is better than no profits but we don't want to tie up too much cash and time in a 6 month project that isn't going to move the needle much for us.

    Thanks for your help.

    Here's an example:

    Property is listed at $65K. We think we can rehab it for $40K (including holding costs and closing costs) which would make total cash needed at $105K. We estimate we can sell it for $120K, making a $15K profit.

    However, a 20% return on $120K is $24K, so to achieve that target we'd need to buy the house for $56K instead of $65K, which hasn't made us very successful so far.

     The market is, what the market is. The market doesn't care what you want to make on a deal. If others are willing to pay $65k but you want to pay $56k the market doesn't care about you.

    What you need to do now is understand what's out there & figure out how you can create a competitive advantage over your competition. If your business is set up where you need to pay $56k but others are able to pay $65k what can you do to allow yourself to pay $66k???

    You need to lower your costs. You can become a Realtor yourself to save those costs, you can do a lot of renovation work to cut costs. What else can you do to create that edge?

  • Broadview Heights, OH · Member since 2013 · 95 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    The Market everywhere is tight. 20% gross margin isn't going to be enough to move the needle on a 120k sale. If you are using hard money and you get a deal on the listing, say 3.5% commissions total, 8-9% of your gross is eaten by closing costs both transactions, commissions and holding costs if you hold for 4 months or less, figure 7% if you don't use hard money. The other thing people forget about is concessions, on average at that price point consider 4k in concessions because thats FHA / VA buyer all day long and they need the cash back to pay their side of the closing.

    120k purchase x 7% = 8.4k

    120 - 8.4 - 4 - 40 - 56 = 11.6 profit

    If you go over on your buy, make a mistake on repair estimates which its alway 3-4k more than what you think, Or have to sell for anything less than calculated ARV, what's left?

    You need a larger sale price or ways to reduce costs. If you use hard money you are looking at 9k profit if you were perfect on estimates and sale price etc. 

    Other options are to start looking off market, network with other investors, market for deals.

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