Could this be a good deal even though it has negative cash flow?

Could this be a good deal even though it has negative cash flow?

chicago , IL · Member since 2014 · 61 posts · 3 votes

Hi guys. I'm in the process of purchasing a property, but I just realized it has negative cash flow when I factor in the maintenance and vacancies. However, I think one of the main reasons it has negative cash flow is because I'm going fha and I am putting a small out of money down, which makes the principal and interest payment higher than it would be if i had put down 20% in a conventional loan. I think the deal could improve over time if I refinance into conventional down the line and put more money down.  What do you think? Here are the numbers: 

purchase price is 270,000 

property is a triplex with all 3 units already rented to long term tenants. the bottom tenant is moving out and that is where I will be living for a year. 

Principal and interest is 1300.00

taxes are 2400 a year

insurance is 1800 a year

rents come out to 2100 per month total for all three units.

down payment is 3.5%

Here are a few bonuses

the property is in a really good neighborhood that is up and coming and this is a neighborhood I personally would want to live in for the next year. 

Also, the units are outdated: old kitchens, carpet, etc. With some rehabbing, I could raise the rent so that the total rent for all three units is about 2500 per month. 

So after i move out and get my unit rented. I think I'm looking at about a negative 169 a year or so. but if I refinance, pay down the mortgage and get rid of the PMI, things could look better.

Is this doable? Is this a bad deal? what are your thoughts on this? 

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Investor · Aiken, SC · Member since 2014 · 398 posts · 120 votes
11y

RUN.

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  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    There are experts on BP that know far more than I do when it comes to analyzing deals. All I know from my experience is just your description above makes my blood run cold. I am having flash backs here to my last hellish REI experience in VA, thanks a lot!!!! :) I am kidding with you. Trying to make a point.

    I would never EVER do this. Want to end up with sleepless nights and a chapter 7 in your future? If not, I would reconsider. 

    Maybe other experts here can shed more light than I can. I am only speaking from personal experience of dealing with rentals with thin profit margins. 

    Sounds like to me that you want to be an investor but you lack the cash to get into your market. Either save up cash or find another market, or another way to invest in your market that allows you to make some money.

    I consider one of my main missions in life now to warn other new investors from doing deals that will make their lives a hell of negative cash flow, paying out of pocket to keep your bad investment afloat (can you IMAGINE THAT? Buying a property to make money, and now you have to pay your hard earned money to keep it going? I've been there. It is horrible), sleepless nights, collection calls and bankruptcy. 

    good luck.

  • Investor · Aiken, SC · Member since 2014 · 398 posts · 120 votes
    11y

    RUN.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jesse Waters:

    RUN.

     ...fast

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y

    Here is a two question test:

    Q1:  Are you an investor, or a buyer?  I'll give you a hint, ...Investors make money.  

    Q2:  How many "negative cash flow" properties does it take, to screw a REI into the ground...as in go broke?

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    Joe, in my case, it was three. 

  • Investor · Isabel, KS · Member since 2015 · 247 posts · 85 votes
    11y

    negative CF = NO DEAL

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    That disaster was the worst mistake of my life bar none. It DID lead me to TX and a lot of good things, but the experience was hell. I hope we can convince Kay to bail on this deal yesterday. 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Joe, in my case, it was three. 

     That's pretty good...mine was 2 (well, 1  1/2).  Once I figured out that my basic education in math (adding and subtracting) was more important than my college Calculus, (and accounting), I started smiling again.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    I was doing well until the downturn and could no longer find renters. That's what buying at the top of the market will do to you. I was a fool. Now I know better. Cash only baby , owner finance. 

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    I would reckon I poured $50,000 easy into three properties over 2 years to keep them going to avoid bankruptcy. The bankruptcy still happened and I was out tthe 50k. Lesson learned. 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I was doing well until the downturn and could no longer find renters. That's what buying at the top of the market will do to you. I was a fool. Now I know better. Cash only baby , owner finance. 

     Positive Cash flow from day one, none of my money in the deal, nothing to lose if....?

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    11y

    You can raise the rent by a total of $400 a month by rehabbing.   How much will rehabbing cost?    $3000+ per unit?   It will take short of a year to recoup that investment for one door at a $400 month increase.  In that year, somebody could move out destroying the carpet and you have to start all over again.    It sounds like you fell in love with the property or the idea of being an investor.   It's a bad deal.  

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    You know I think BP should have a HORRIBLE DEALS DON"T DO IT section. A mod could pick out obvious trainwrecks in the making and post them in that section. Not to beat up kay in any way! I mean this in a compassionate way to help her and others to warn them from doing crazy deals that will lead to misery. 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I would reckon I poured $50,000 easy into three properties over 2 years to keep them going to avoid bankruptcy. The bankruptcy still happened and I was out tthe 50k. Lesson learned. 

    REI is just like Poker. ..not because I think of it as gambling. The #1 rule of both is to stay in the game. If you like to bluff, rationalize and stay with losing hands, you won't be in the game very long. If you like negative cash flow, and rationalize it to be OK using funky formulas and %'s, then you won't be in that game very long either.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    Amen brian.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    Unless you have the funds to handle the negative cash flow and you're sure you're going to get big appreciation or something else, it's a no brainer bad deal. A classic sort of bad deal that rookies get into. Like I did. 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    You know I think BP should have a HORRIBLE DEALS DON"T DO IT section. A mod could pick out obvious trainwrecks in the making and post them in that section. Not to beat up kay in any way! I mean this in a compassionate way to help her and others to warn them from doing crazy deals that will lead to misery. 

     We kind of have that in our REIC presentations.  Usually one of us (organizers), or sometimes a member, gives a horror story.  You can learn from your mistakes, but it's cheaper to learn by someone elses.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    I use my own money or OPM at reasaonble rates. If I don't have the cash to buy the house, I don't buy it (revolutionary concept!). I then do flips and make 10k or so and save it up to buy more. 

    I'm done with mortgages on investment properties. No freaking way.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    Yes, Joe - learn from the train wrecks that others experienced. Dont' go looking for your own train wreck :)

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    you are right Joe, basic math in REI trumps fancy degrees in calculus or accounting.

    are there any deals worth doing that have obvious negative cash flow like this? I am not experienced enough to know - maybe in some high appreciation area in CA and if you have the resources to deal with the short term red ink?

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    you are right Joe, basic math in REI trumps fancy degrees in calculus or accounting.

    are there any deals worth doing that have obvious negative cash flow like this? I am not experienced enough to know - maybe in some high appreciation area in CA and if you have the resources to deal with the short term red ink?

     None...as far as I'm concerned.  When you lose money while you are waiting for external events, out of your control, to get your money back, you are not an investor....you are a speculator.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    agreed. that's my take as well. 

  • Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    I reposted this 'deal' as a PSA for others to see and avoid. I hope Kay backs out of this/ 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y

    We had a new person come to our REIC last month that said she and her husband have experience in REI, and they were looking for some answers to questions. By the questions they had, they were lost and headed in the wrong direction...and, by their list of experience and knowledge, that direction was doom.

    Here is their experience and knowledge list:

    1 - Accounting degrees (Masters so less)
    2 - They rebuilt a kitchen.
    3 - They have a relative that is a RE Agent, and a PM.

    They figured they had it made.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I reposted this 'deal' as a PSA for others to see and avoid. I hope Kay backs out of this/ 

     I saw that.  We'll see.  Notice, there are few if any positive replies here.  Either there are not takers to this being a good deal, or they're not out of bed yet.

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