The problems with small multi-families (at least in DFW)

The problems with small multi-families (at least in DFW)

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes

I keep getting asked why I've come to dislike small multi-families (2-4 units) in my area, and I wanted to make a list to see if maybe I'm missing something. I’m not saying small multi’s don’t make sense in other areas, and I’ll readily admit that a lot of my criticisms are derived from my own, personal values/priorities that may be different from others. Also, I should say that I do hae a fourplex and it performs fine. Here are my criticisms in no particular order.

    (1)·They are valued on the sales comp approach. It doesn't matter if I do an awesome job of going in, fixing it up, and raising the rents or cutting expenses (thus increasing NOI), the value does not change much. If my bozo neighbors next door decide to sell theirs for a cheap price (maybe due to deferred maintenance or whatever), that's the market price that is used for appraisal purposes and financing. You can probably push the value up a little on your building due to improvements, but you can't ever fully escape the sales comp. approach.

    (2)·They are harder to finance and refinance than SFRs. There are not as many of them so it can be hard to find comps for them to appraise. This also makes them harder to sell. SFRs are generally very easy to refinance due there generally being more available comps.

    (3) I think it's harder to find value-add plays. Having directly marketed to both types, you generally get big discounts when there's a lack of symmetry in information. You are more likely to find this in the SFR market than the small multi-family market. That is, sellers of small multi-families tend to be more savvy than sellers of SFRs.

    (4)·Value plays are essentially done the same way as small SFRs. You basically have to find a dilapidated building, go in and fix it up, and then it will now be worth the retail value what other buildings are selling for. (Again, it's the sales comp. approach) It's not like a commercial apartment building where you can buy, improve the building, and then cash flows improve such that your NOI (and thus value) goes up. Put another way, with a small multifamily, your ability to add value seems limited to buying at a significant enough discount to the retail market. With larger commercials, it seems like it's tied more to your ability to increase NOI, which gives you more creativity and flexibility to improve value. (I'm not sure this is really a point so much as continued gripe of the stupidity of the sales comp approach.)

    (5)·You do not get the benefits of economies of scale. Having researched apartments quite a bit lately, your really don’t start to get economies of scale until you can have onsite (or at least full time) management and maintenance. With small multis, you still have to use contractors (which are more expensive than employees) and off-site, fee-based management (typically around 10%).

    (6)·The pool of potential buyers is more limited, which leads to less liquidity. With SFRs, I can sell to an owner-occupied or investors. With small multis, it’s generally just investors, who tend to be more savvy.

    (7)·I think people drastically underestimate the management headaches of small multis. As soon as people are sharing walls, there is eventually going to be drama. You don’t have this as much with SFRs

    (8)·For the fourplexes in my area, the tenants tend to be of a lower socio-economic status and thus cannot absorb rent increases as well as my SFR renters. @Ben Leybovich wrote a great blog on the problem of stagnant wages and rents that I found to be very insightful.

    (9) A corollary to the above point is that, particularly for fourplexes, many times the landlord has to pay water. Water rates have gone up quite a bit in my area, and I expect they will continue to do so. (Fortunately, with my fourplex, the water is tenant paid.) Stagnant rents and increased expenses are not a good combination, in my opinion.

    (10)·Living next door to your tenants is horrible idea. I see people talking about buying a small multi and then living in one of the units. These are almost universally people with no landlording experience and I think they underestimate the stresses/annoyances of living next door to their tenants.

    (11)·I don't see generally much if any discount on them on the MLS compared to SFRs. I can buy a $100,000 house that rents for $1000/month or a $200,000 duplex that rents for $200,000. (the numbers are little better for fourplexes but not enough to justify the management headache) The maintenance costs and square footage are about the same (and duplexes around here are not even two story such that you would have a smaller roofing cost). If I'm inclined to pay retail, as some investors are, why wouldn't I buy the house (with less management headache and broader selling pool) than the duplex?

I can probably come up with more if I think about it, but this was just off the top of my head. Let me know your thoughts.

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Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
12y
Originally posted by @DL Martin:
Originally posted by @Robert Steele:
Originally posted by @DL Martin:

While living there, I had zero issues with any tenants. I ONLY rent to families with small children. No single people, except for students in advanced degree programs at the nearby private university.

Careful there cowboy. Discriminating against people because of marital status is breaking the law. I think you should read up on the Fair Employment and Housing Act before you find yourself in a lawsuit.

@Robert Steele ... Feel free to actually read The Federal Fair Housing Acts.

The federal code prohibits discrimination against applicants with children. I have always done the opposite. I give a preferance to people who have children. Further, my post states "families with small children". There is no mention of marital status.

"Bad information" is worse than "no information" 100% of the time.

@DL Martin I wasn't talking about familiar status I was talking about martial status. You said "No single people".

The Fair Employment and Housing Act (FEHA) prohibits harassment and discrimination in employment because of race, color, religion, sex, gender, gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, ancestry, mental and physical disability, medical condition, age, pregnancy, denial of ...

www.dfeh.ca.gov/Publications_FEHADescr.htm

Even though the above definition does not specifically state this applies to housing the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing brochure below says as much.

http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/res/docs/Publications/DFEH-157H.pdf

And yes I agree - bad information is worse than no information.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    We are buy and hold investors. Most of the drama and problems happen at our 8-plex (which is actually 4 duplexes grouped together with a shared coin-op laundry and off-street parking lot.) Not so much at our SFHs and duplexes. The SFHs and duplexes are easy to rent. The 8-plex units not as easy. However our two longest tenancies are at the 8-plex (26 yrs and 22 yrs) and have those tenants have not caused us trouble. So, the jury is still out on this for me. Still learning what makes a property work and what doesn't.

  • Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2009 · 391 posts · 257 votes
    12y

    Hi John,

    That is a great summary of why I do not buy 2-4 unit properties. I have owned duplexes and 4-plexes. I much prefer SFR's.

    I found number 7 to be especially true. If all of the others were not true as well, #7 is enough to keep me from ever buying another duplex, triplex, or four plex.

    Great post.

    Chris

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    12y

    Thanks @Chris L. , it's nice to hear others have similar thoughts.

    I also forgot No. 12

    (12) With smaller multi-families in my area, the buildings tend to be right next to each other (rows of duplexes or fourplexes, for example). It's incredibly frustrating because you cannot control the activity of what the other landlord do and who they put in their units, yet those tenants can cause problems for your tenants and make your life miserable.

  • Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 384 posts · 109 votes
    12y

    As an owner of small MF's, #7 is no doubt true, the shared space can lead to conflict. Usually though the drama is something which can be ignored, so that is what I have learned to do.

    I disagree with #10. I believe that living in a rental you own can work out fine. In fact there are many advantages to it. I started out living in my rental property and do not regret it one bit. Living in your rental is for many the only practical entry into investing.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    Dan it takes a certain mindset to live next to your tenants. A big key is what TYPE of tenant will you be dealing with?? In other words a quad to live in for a nicer area generally has a more stable tenant base and higher level of learning than low income areas.

    Big difference between a self-sufficient tenant and one banging on your door all the time to tell them how to put their shoes on (sarcasm but reality is low income has lots of issues).

    "I think another problem with them is that they are way too small for commercial brokerage houses to touch them so the listings are taken by traditional residential agents who most of the time have no idea how to value them."

    Nick I agree with your statement. My transaction price is mainly in the millions for clients. I do have a few local investors that occasionally I will help them get started with a quad etc. but it's not my main focus.

    3 apartment deals at 50k a pop in commission is 150k. To make the same amount on duplexes to quads I would have to do 30 deals or so. When a broker gets more knowledgeable you work up into larger deals. With many duplexes to quads the sellers are clueless and so are the agents. It really is the blind leading the blind. Appraisers get requests to evaluate them but they mostly do houses for reports so have said admittedly they are rusty with these. The commercial appraisers do not do them because they get thousands for commercial. It's kind of a grey area with not that solid of metrics.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @John Chapman - great post, thanks for laying that out. I'd also say that the smaller 3-4 unit properties don't appreciate as fast as the single family homes do on average.

  • Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2013 · 106 posts · 18 votes
    12y

    This is a pretty comprehensive list with well thought out reasoning. My only comment is that most of the reasons are market dependant.

    In my market, finding high quality tenants is very, very easy (knock on wood) and so #7 has been a non-issue for our duplex.

    Also, most entry-level buyers in my market actually prefer a second unit in order to offset the high mortgage costs. So having 2-4 units has lead to very high competition on those properties, even if there is considerable deferred maintenance. Those units with 2-4 units will typically have several cash offers (well over asking price) as well as mulitple conventional offers within 1-2 days of open house.

    #2 is certainly true.

    After living through #10 (living with your tenants), our experience was actually great - again, it comes back to finding a high quality tenant.

  • Rental Property Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2011 · 701 posts · 531 votes
    12y

    You have some good points but I disagree with #10. Living next to your tenants, if you manage the situation properly, is a good way to get started in landlording, at least from my personal experience because that is exactly how I have gotten started. Being close to the rental allows you to keep an eye on things and reduces time spent on any maintenance/repairs you must go do. Also living next door to your tenants gives you a little more freedom in selecting tenants. I've had fantastic tenants, the kind that offer to pay me more rent and have handed me money for repairs I did on the water heater. Living next door or not, if you screen your tenants well then you will come out on top more often than not. Of course this just my opinions based on the small sample size of my 4 short years of landlording.

  • SFR Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 604 posts · 243 votes
    12y

    I'm also in the DFW area and when I decided to look at some 2/4 plexes, I was shocked on price. Yes, I can buy 2 single family homes in good areas that will produce more appreciation, than one duplex in a similiar area.

    I keep thinking I'll find a good deal, but that just doesn't seem to happen, so I'll happily stay with SFH,,,,I don't have any turnover problems and get a better clientele than I think I would get in a duplex

  • Michele FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    I am currently experiencing another issue. Not as important, but still a consideration.

    When our duplexes are vacant, we have to watch what time we do inside and outside work, usually not starting before 10am and stopping at dusk. Heck, my son got yelled at for "noisily" painting the exterior of a duplex in the early afternoon.

    We have a SFR vacant right now, and we have commented several times how nice it is to work on our time schedule instead of the neighbors.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes
    12y

    @john chapman

    Well thought out post.

    But, like politics, I suspect that All Real Estate Is Local.

    Fifteen years ago or so, I paid 200k for a 4 plex. The units (all 2 BR) rent for $850. Payment/Taxes/Insurance is $1,400 per month. The laundry pays the utilities, more/less. The property taxes cannot increase by more than 2% in any one year, per the State Constitution.

    In 2008, my family (3 of us) moved into it while we built a custom home in Riverside. While living in the apartment, I took the opportunity to refinance it as "owner occupied", with no problems whatsoever.

    While living there, I had zero issues with any tenants. I ONLY rent to families with small children. No single people, except for students in advanced degree programs at the nearby private university.

    My building is one of approximately 20 identical buildings, all side by side, on one street, within one block of Loma Linda University. Loma Linda University purchased the building directly across the street from mine for $640k during the height of the California RE Bubble. The university houses medical school students there now. I would estimate the value of all of these buildings today at 500k.

    So, mortgage/taxes/insurance $1,400. Rental income $3,400. Cash flow = $2,000 per month. Capital appreciation = $300k over fifteen years.

    Someday the building will be paid off and California's open armed embrace of Illegal Immigrants GUARANTEES that rental housing supply will always be in high demand, driving C and D property rents higher and higher. Five years from now, it would not surprise me if our apartments are renting for $1,000 per month.

    And this is in one of the poorest counties in California(San Bernardino). I can't imagine having the good fortune to own a 4plex in an expensive, coastal county...

    "all real estate is local"

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    12y

    I should probably add a couple of follow up comments to my post:

    (1) I'm not saying don't buy a small multi if a great opportunity comes along. I was speaking very generally about the asset class in my area and whether you should devote time and energy search/marketing for these types of assets. I wrote the post mainly because I think people have a distorted view about the assets. Honestly, if a decent deal fell in my lap and it was in an area where I have SFRs, I would buy it. (And if I'm being really honest, I'd probably even buy my fourplex again.)

    (2) The extra management issues are definitely not insurmountable or anything. There is just more to it than SFRs.

    (3) Many of my criticism are local, though I suspect those criticisms will apply in markets similar to DFW. There are some criticisms that are universal (e.g. you are not going to achieve economies of scale with a small multifamily and they are more management intensive than SFRs)

    (4) Many of the criticisms are a reflection of my own personal values and lack of time. As I get more units, I place ease of management as a higher priority.

    (5) I've got to stand by the statement about living next door to your tenants. Yes, it is possible to have a good experience, and I'm sure that many on this website have done so. The problem, in my mind, is that when it does not work out and goes bad, it goes, really, really bad. I cannot think think of a worse situation than living next to a problem tenant. Also, I think there is something beneficial to "out-of-sight, out-of mind." I believe, based on my experience, that tenants will whine more over insignificant repairs (e.g. burned out lightbulbs) if they see you everyday. If they have to pick up the phone and call you, they'll probably just do it themselves. (I wrote about this recently.) Not saying I want discourage legitimate repair requests or anything, it's just nice having that initial buffer.

    I don't care how good your tenant screening is, if you have enough units or do it long enough, a bad one is going to slip through the cracks. (Think Fight Club, "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.")

    For some, like @Johnny Aloha , I think the benefits definitely outweigh the risks. He needs the tenant to help offset the very high mortgages in Hawaii and because of housing shortages in Hawaii, he can select the very best of the best. Also, I suspect his tenants will not want to get cross with him (due to the housing shortage) in the fear that he won't renew their lease. If you are in that position of strength, then I'll readily concede that living next to your tenant is probably fine. Hawaii is a pretty unique market, though.

  • Homeowner · surrey, British Columbia · Member since 2013 · 98 posts · 8 votes
    12y

    This is a great post @John Chapman

    My one question is, if we are looking at owning lets say 3 quads versus 12 SFH, would your expenses/managment and headache of running around to multiple locations be equal or less with SFH's?

    Also I could be completely wrong on this but if I am looking at purchasing a large multi lets say a 50 unit apartment the banks will want to see what experience I have had previously, is having multiple SFH looked on as favorably as owning multiple small Multi's.

  • Real Estate Broker · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 607 votes
    12y

    Great post, @John Chapman . IMO, 2-4 unit MF's (and condos) are the best part of the market to avoid for investing - they have most of the downsides of both SF and MF, w/ few of the upsides. I'm actively looking to invest in apartments (and SF to a lesser extent), but have no interest in duplexes-quadplexes.

  • Richardson, TX · Member since 2014 · 35 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    I'm just going to throw out that, though I don't have any personal experiences with owning these types of properties, this is a great thread for the beginners like me trying to start out in the DFW metroplex.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    12y

    @Shahriar K. in answer to your question, I really don't think a 6-10 unit is much better. (Huge qualification, I don't own a building of this nature so I lot of this is based on my own research.) In fact, I'd say it's almost worse because you can't get the good conventional financing. I don't think you are going to see any significant savings in management. As for expenses, that hard to say. Depends on a lot of factors (e.g. who pays utilities.)

    I marketed to a bunch of these about a year ago. I found that, while not as many people are chasing them, the sellers were generally unmotivated and savvy. (The ones that were motivated had horrible buildings in horrible locations.) I didn't even need worry about the cap rates because the numbers demanded by the seller of good properties wouldn't make sense under any scenario. I think you can find good deals, but it's going to take a lot of work. Then, the question comes down to whether it's worth it. For me it's not.

    As for large multi-families, it's my understanding that they do generally want experience. @Tom Lafferty is really the guy who knows a lot about this. He's been chasing large multis and I believe he just got under contract a pretty decent sized one.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    12y

    @Chris Soignier I totally agree. I cannot say this enough. Do not buy a condo in DFW.. They are awful. (I could start a separate thread on that.)

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 156 votes
    12y

    I wouldn't say mine is large. Larger than a fourplex, but small as far as apartments go. Its 32 units. I have no experience whatsoever! The lender initially said they wanted a "consulting agreement" with a PM company since I was going to self-manage. Word is that the loan commitment is coming tomorrow, and they have not required anything as of yet. So I would say it probably depends on the lender regarding experience. I think it actually might be easier to buy 60+ unit properties, as you can use professional 3rd party management at that point. The problem is that is what EVERYONE wants, and prices are ridiculous unless you have a relationship in the industry that allows you to get access to deals prior to going on the market. I do have the benefit of working with a group that the lender/broker/and seller all know, so it gave me some credibility I guess. I know experience DOES matter to the lender if you're trying to buy something that needs a lot of work. They tend to get nervous if an apartment newbie is looking at something over $4-5K/door in rehab.

  • Rental Property Investor · Englewood FL & Prior Lake, MN · Member since 2012 · 107 posts · 33 votes
    12y

    Food for thought. We've got a few SFRs and are looking at quads now. I appreciate your thoughts.

  • Jessica H.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Easton, PA · Member since 2013 · 224 posts · 36 votes
    12y

    wow, some good insights here!

  • Real Estate Broker · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 607 votes
    12y

    @Tom Lafferty - are you in Lifestyles Unlimited? I'm a PIG member there, looking for the right passive investment opportunities.

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 156 votes
    12y

    @Chris Soignier , I am a member, however the 32 unit is not through LU. I'll send you a message...

  • Real Estate Investor · StL, MO · Member since 2008 · 294 posts · 152 votes
    12y

    Thank you for this post. I have stuck mainly with SFR but have two 2 families. Planning in advance for a downshift in jobs, I was thinking that I should max out my Fannie Mae loans before I take a pay cut and that 4 families would be the best way to max out. Looking at the prices and rents for 4 families, I just don't understand them. For about $40k I can buy and rehab a nice SFR and get $800/month rent. Most 4 families rent for about $400/month to maybe $450 unless it's in a much better part of town (much higher prices) or are hard to find 2 or 3 bedroom units. A cheap 4 family in my area would got for about $80k and that is probably on the low end of the habitability range and needs work on top of it or are shotgun units. $100k-$120k is more of an average price. I would much rather manage 2 tenants that live in a house and pay $800 each instead of 4 tenants that pay $400 each. I can see value in my area to 2 familys as they are easier to find in 2 & 3 bedrooms.

    The 4 family I lived in when I first moved to St. Louis rented for $400 in 2000. It now rents for $425 as it's located in a large concentration of 4 families and apartments.

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2012 · 139 posts · 37 votes
    12y

    Interesting timing for me on this as i have been debating the 4 plex viability for the past several months. i have 1 fourplex and 3 SFH and now a duplex. Duplex is too new to judge, but the biggest factor for me has been turnover/vacancy. it is significantly higher in the fourplex than the SFH and that is a big factor for someone (like me) that has a PM and has to pay a full months rent to the PM when they get it rented. based on that alone, i may shift toward SFH until i get to a point where i can get larger apartment buildings (50+units) which is ultimately my goal. Turnover/vacancy is a HUGE thing to consider.

  • Real Estate Investor · Henderson, NV · Member since 2011 · 87 posts · 22 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Chris L.:
    Hi John,

    That is a great summary of why I do not buy 2-4 unit properties. I have owned duplexes and 4-plexes. I much prefer SFR's.

    I found number 7 to be especially true. If all of the others were not true as well, #7 is enough to keep me from ever buying another duplex, triplex, or four plex.

    Great post.

    Chris

    Chris, having invested in Indianapolis IN duplexes I agree. They are too much headache. Now I'm outside of 465 and in SFRs. :)

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