Private or Hard Money Lenders can be funny sometimes.

Private or Hard Money Lenders can be funny sometimes.

Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes

Hello everyone and happy 4th of July!!!  I am getting ready to close on a house later this month. 7/15/16 is the closing date right now.  I was planning on doing some financing on this one but it has become a little difficult as the closing date is close.  So I was looking at Hard Money.  I had just bought a used truck and put it on a credit card and some dental work on a credit card and I wanted to pay them both off before applying for a conventional loan.  You know, make the credit score go up.  And yes they are paid off.  Even Hard Money Lenders like to see your credit, so I wanted to pay off the credit cards first and look the best I could for them.  You know, for our first date.  LOL

Well I have talked with a bank to start with about a line of credit and then a few Hard Money Lenders that happen to hear about here on Bigger Pockets.  The first one I just felt the rates were to high and I shut down talks with them without giving them a chance to see what else was out there? I did send them another e-mail saying I would like to see if they could do better?  They did not reply. But if that was their starting point? I don't think we could do business anyway.  But I was going to give them another chance.

Then another HL happens to be local to me and I chatted on the phone with the one guy.  Told him a little bit about what I was after and he said no problem.  So I thought i would pop in to go over my situation a bit more.  Well the way I was greeted in the office and the way they just assumed I was someone else and told me to take a card and get some information from my boss and send it to them.  I looked at him very strange, as I don't have a boss, and he said "Who Are You"  I am David McBrayer of McBrayer Investment Trust and I pointed at my tee shirt with that info on it.  I am looking to borrow some money for a project.  We spoke on the phone for a few minutes the other day.  He said, well we are about to have a conference call and I don't have time to talk with you right now, you need to let us know you are coming by?  Which I said, I totally understand, that is why when I was replying to your e-mail this morning at 5am and I mentioned I would stop in today around 2pm.  Ghee look, it is 2:05pm.  Funny, I did not get a reply saying don't stop by or make an appointment.  But I understand you are busy.  

So I took a card a left and I could see they were busy.  I sent them an e-mail and told them I was sorry we got off to a bad start.  In which I got a phone call to help straighten things out and get us back on track.  But then I go over the deal and what I am looking for and they think I am off my rocker or something?  Well this is a prime case of me knowing the area I invest in much better than than the potential lender does.  I need $30k to $40k to rehab a house that I am paying $55k cash for.  The Tax Value of the house in 2015 was $82k, and we know it is worth more than that!  The Zestimate right now is $80k and that is with it the way it is and them not saying it is a 3-2.  I am going to rehab it and make it worth $120k or more.  I figure on the low side with that estimate, it could be worth $150k or better.  But they were scared to lend $30k on something like that?  Or offer me any kind of deal.  They said I could offer up my two condos as more collateral!!!  And they can go take a hike.  I did not just fall of a truck and I was not born last night.  Thank you for your time.

Look, I do not mind giving up some of the profits to borrow some money.  That is business.  But don't play me for a fool.  The fee's and interest rate you pay a Hard Money Lender are pretty steep to start with, but it is all about what kind of profit you want to make at the end, how much of it you are willing to part with?  How fast you need the cash and how long you need it for?  Also a big plus is not as much paperwork as a rule or not as many people to approve the deal.  I offered up a good solid deal.  I was looking to finance the whole project or part of it?  I could put a down payment and finance the rest, I could pay cash for the house and finance the rehab?  But neither has happened yet.  Put I do have some plastic and properties paid off.  So I am not that worried.  Someone is missing a deal.

I have assets and money to pay for the house.  2 condos paid off and a piece of vacant land paid off.  Credit score is good and I do not owe much money at all.  My to credit to debt ratio is tiny.  Yet the Hard Money Lenders act like I am the risky one?  Well, it looks like you make $0 dollars on this deal.  How is that working out for you?  And a great chance you make $0 dollars on my next deal and the one after that.  It would be nice to be treated as a human and an investor! Rather than your next meal ticket.  As it looks like you are not eating.  Get those DOLLAR SIGNS out of your eyes.  It is not helping.  

The closing on this deal on the 15th regardless of rehab money.  I am taking bids on the work I want done and by the first of August I hope to be going strong with the rehabbing.  If I have to do the projects one at a time? I will.  I can refi a condo or something?  The bottom line is, I am trying to build up some business relationships.  Part of my problem is being a ghost for 8 years.  I show no activity on my credit report.  But yet I own properties and have money coming in.  Someone will get wise and want to partner with me or lend to me.  I do my research and I know the area where I like to invest.  The 2nd problem is, I am blunt and it can rub people the wrong way.  But just because you have some money to lend that I would like to borrow, does not give you that much control over me.  After all, I got the deal, not you.  And there are other Lenders out there that do just what you do.  Just like plenty of Investor's  out there that do what I do.  I just have not put my situation in front of the right lender yet.  So don't think I must have you.  As those are the deals that generally don't work.  The one's where the borrower is willing to walk away from?  Those generally do!

Everyone keep up the great work and invest wisely.  I hope you all have a safe and Happy 4th of July!!!

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
10y

Most HML rates are not negotiable on your first few deals. so I think your under some misconception that your deal here which is SMALL for a loan has some juice when in fact its not a real prime candidate for most lenders.. IE because how much money can you make on one little 50k loan.

if your looking at it like bank rates or think that 4 points and 14% is too.. high.. that only makes the lender a whopping 2k fee.. hardly worth dealing with someone who is demanding and blunt to boot.. LOL...

If you could not do a consistent volume of these like 1 to 2 a month you offer very little on the borrower side.. and more risk and time and energy than your account is worth frankly.

this is why you see so many folks have such a hard time borrowing on these smaller deals. risk far out weights the reward for the lender.. especially in FLA were its judicial ..

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    I guess it is better to make $0's on a deal, than to make $2000 dollars on a small deal and have to do a little work or take a little chance or risk?   

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    I have several other irons in the fire.  This is the cheapest one but the one that is about to go down.  Again, I want to build a relationship.  So if I needed $250k or more, some of you would get a little more excited?  I have those too. 

  • George DespotopoulosBusiness Member
    Lender · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 936 posts · 287 votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer. Doing a smaller deal takes away resources from doing the larger deal with more economics and not to mention the additional element of risk as I explained above. 

    MoFin Lending4.9152 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Then it sounds like some may not have as much money to lend as one might think?  I do understand it is a dinky deal.  But the attitude put toward a small deal is sad.  Probably why we had a bust last time and why some of you are so scared.   I understand they do not bring in a ton of money on that deal, but you are trying to build a relationship and get them to do more deals with you.  Or that is how I would do it or what I am trying to do.

    It sounds like all the lenders started out going big right off the bat.  They did not do small deals or start small.  The little man don't count.  There are times when the deal is more risky.  And there are times when a solid small deal is looking you right in the face and you laugh at it.  And that deal would turn another deal and another deal and each one gets bigger.

    Shoot for the moon.  But stay grounded on Earth.

  • George DespotopoulosBusiness Member
    Lender · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 936 posts · 287 votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer - I agree with what you are saying. 

    I am just giving you the market reality out there for Hard Money Lenders and how they are thinking about it. 

    Small or large deal...I look at them all

    MoFin Lending4.9152 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    I appreciate that @George Despotopoulos, I am rather new to asking to borrow money for a deal.  My friend and partner is a former VP of the World Bank.  If I really need to borrow some money, I just ask him.  He was in the car wreck with me that made me disabled.  So he has helped me out a few times when I needed it.  But he is 92 years old and he would rather just take it easy and travel some more.  I am going to buy the properties he has in Winter Haven.  Well I will try to anyway.  I do have an inside shot at them. LOL   

  • George DespotopoulosBusiness Member
    Lender · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 936 posts · 287 votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer - No problem. Best of luck to you and I hope everything works out. 

    Always happy to help if you have any other questions. 

    MoFin Lending4.9152 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    OK, how about I go at this a different way. Let us say you lenders were looking to borrow $30k or $40k for a deal, what do you think good terms would be on a loan like that from a HML?

  • George DespotopoulosBusiness Member
    Lender · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 936 posts · 287 votes
    10y

    The few HML's that will lend you money on smaller deals will probably ask for 12%-14% rate with 4-5 points upfront...

    MoFin Lending4.9152 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @George Despotopoulos, I just need to put in the time and learn the lending side.  Learn how it works.  Study up on it.  I was just honestly shocked at the cold shoulder small deals get.  But there is not a lot of cash in the deal for Lenders.  And like you said, it takes away resources from larger deals.  But someone needs to come up with a softer tone toward telling the small person they are to small to be bothered with.  That $4000 a year is not worth it.  Regardless of if you have good credit, got collateral and can afford the deal.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    That is about right George. There are a few that will do the $40k. 3.5 points and 12% with a 70% LTV on the first deal. However they will not lend to a Trust, but they will an LLC. The rates are workable but the LLC is questionable because of my disability. But as long as I am not drawing a salary it should be OK. But it is a concern for me.

    Now to me, if someone was doing a smaller deal, you would not want it paid back in 3 months.  More like 6 months to a year or longer so you could make some interest.  But I don't really know that side and what makes it tick for the Lenders?  I kind of thought they needed me, just as bad as I need them?

  • George DespotopoulosBusiness Member
    Lender · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 936 posts · 287 votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer - Loan Term of the loan is usually 12 months. I have seen lenders who limit it to 6 months and then charge a point every month after the 6th month. 

    MoFin Lending4.9152 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    OK let me add this.  In the last year, I have bought 5 properties in the Winter Haven, FL area.  So I do like to deal and have more deals in the works.  This house is #6.  Two I backed away from after the inspections did not come back well. 

    One I donated in my partners honor.  The school did not mind partnering with me. LOL

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    Most HML rates are not negotiable on your first few deals. so I think your under some misconception that your deal here which is SMALL for a loan has some juice when in fact its not a real prime candidate for most lenders.. IE because how much money can you make on one little 50k loan.

    if your looking at it like bank rates or think that 4 points and 14% is too.. high.. that only makes the lender a whopping 2k fee.. hardly worth dealing with someone who is demanding and blunt to boot.. LOL...

    If you could not do a consistent volume of these like 1 to 2 a month you offer very little on the borrower side.. and more risk and time and energy than your account is worth frankly.

    this is why you see so many folks have such a hard time borrowing on these smaller deals. risk far out weights the reward for the lender.. especially in FLA were its judicial ..

     This is a pretty good overview.

  • Lender · Northbrook, IL · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer the reasoning by the HML for additional collateral may be a result of not being comfortable with the amount of liquidity that you were showing. Regardless, doesn't sound like you were treated in a professional manner; if you are still looking to finance this property we would be happy to see what we can do; send me a note.

  • Specialist · Lakewood, CO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer you keep saying you need to get schooled on lending and that you want to build a relationship. If we summarize a bit we can look at it from their perspective: "Hi I'm David. I have a deal that I'm telling you looks good. On paper it looks bad, but I know better and you should trust me even though you don't know me, we've never done a deal, I have not been active over the years, I only have 5 properties under my belt, and I claim that I have tons of options but don't want to use them. You need me more than I need you. I rub people the wrong way but you should be nice and friendly to me. Now, the next thing I'm going to need you to do is spend a bunch of time for $3k instead of working with others that are grateful to have you in their team and that bring in money and deals reliably already. Oh, and I want to do this more often in the future."

    Basically, you are not building any relationships. You are pushing them away as fast as you make contact. Use your own money or a private lender for this deal. Keep good records on numbers, before/after pics, etc. of the projects you are doing and build a "I know what I'm talking about" portfolio so you can give yourself some credibility when you go back in. Also expect that right now in RE everyone thinks they are amazing so grow a thicker skin because they don't know you from the next investor.

    Best of luck and happy investing.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Now see @Mark Beckwith, there are still a few people or companies out there that seem to care about the small person.  Or care about customer service!!!  Letting someone down gently is an art.  Maybe not this time but hopefully on your next deal.  Something with a little hope.

    But my rating of the HML's was not that warm and fuzzy either. But there has been some great advise and some of them that helped me prove my point. I am still looking for funding but time is running out. I can at least close on the house as planned regardless. But most would like to add it in on the lending as well. It is mostly my fault for waiting. I thought I have some companies to deal with but I think I got shell shocked first thing in the morning with no coffee yet.

    Customer Service is a lost art though.  It is amazing how far being nice can go.  I should try it. LOL  Thank you for your comment Mark and we should talk!

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Bryan O., it did not look bad on paper.  It was just a tiny deal and they do not know me.  I just felt they were getting a little to greedy.  I don't mind saying that.  And I am sure I did not articulate my point.  I have a problem with that.

    If you don't know the area and market you are lending in? you can miss by several thousand dollars.  Which is the case.  To think this house will not be worth $120k after rehabbing it is a joke.  It will be worth more.  But I appreciate the honesty.   

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    It is just not much money!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Well things are looking up.  I have a Pre-Approval letter for $155k for the house. Or any property.  I did not need that much but it is nice to have if I need it.  That is for purchase and rehabbing.

    And when I am finished rehabbing, they will switch me into a long term loan.  3.5 pts at 12% for 13 months on the fix.  That is just if I need it for that long.  Then 6% for long term financing.  Which of course I could shop around.  This company has been pretty easy to deal with.  I will do a post later once the deal is done to give them a shout out.  But so far they have been straight forward with me, kept in contact with me and answered any questions.  They have good customer service from what I have experienced.

    The people in South Carolina are pretty nice.  Now I did live in Charleston, SC for a while.  That is a beautiful city.  But things are looking up here on my end.

    May everyone land a deal today.  May the Lenders lend some money and may some Borrowers borrow it.  May houses be bought and sold today.  OK, condos and vacant land too.

  • Lender · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @David McBrayer

    You have 2 condos that are free and clear, why not cash out refinance one or both of them, with conventional financing to pay for the rehab? If your credit score is high, and your DTI's are low, you will have low interest rates and fees. Hard money and private money are typically much higher interest rates with points and collateral. They need it to be worth their while if they foreclose. As Jay said many lenders require minimum loan amounts.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Hello @Jerry Padilla, time was kind of a factor on this one. But Jay had mentioned that before. I am not that great at knowing the different options out there because I have not used them. Like Hard Money. The credit is over 700 and the DTI is very low. Thanks for the comment and suggestions!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    Well, sometimes it just takes a friend of your dad's to hear that you are looking for funding on a deal, to make things happen.  I had found a lender willing to finance the deal and we had an appraisal done and all that good stuff.  I paid for the appraisal  Well, it was getting close to deal time and I was still waiting.  They needed a few more days and the closing is tomorrow.

    They want to go to a construction loan which is all fine and dandy.  But a friend of the family heard I was looking for funding on a project.  So he went by and looked at the project and he already knew the house quite well, his first investment property in the 1970's was the duplex next door.  He thought I got a very good buy and what I had planned for it would certainly do what I had thought.  And that it would make a great long term rental or a flip.  I was in it right.

    So he goes to talk to his attorney to draw up some papers and low and behold it is the closing agent I am already using tomorrow.   And she knows his deals and terms.  So it was like it was meant to be.  Plus he use to golf with my dad.  And I was looking for a local lender to work with.  Now get this.  NO POINTS.  Family discount. LOL

    May everyone have a deal come through this week.  Rock on.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winter Haven, FL · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    The rehab is going well.  There have been a few snags and a few upgrades but it is coming along nicely.  The flat roof is underway as well as the electric and plumbing.  The place has been 90% demoed for the new stuff to be put back in.  The GC just needs to take down some ceiling and replace it.  I got to give a special thanks to Griff Fountain for stepping up to the plate with no time to spare.   I never met him until closing.  But the money was there waiting.  The time line for the rehab was pushed back due to the windows I am using.  Some custom vinyl windows.  But the rest of the house will be done waiting.

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