Getting started (my story) - LONG - Barely Updated 12/12/07

Getting started (my story) - LONG - Barely Updated 12/12/07

Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes

I mentioned in my introductory post that I would attempt to chronicle my experiences as a first-time real estate investor here, in the hopes that some other new investors may relate to them and maybe even find them helpful (or at least interesting to read).

I will update this thread as my situation progresses, answer any questions, and hopefully generate some interesting conversation in the process. If this becomes too “bloggish” or fails to provide an interesting read, PLEASE let me know as I would hate to clog the forum with stuff like that when there is so much other valuable information around to be shared.

First, a couple quick notes about my current situation. I am a 33 year old CPA from Putnam County, NY (about 50 miles north of NYC) with a young family. My wife is generally very supportive and trusts me fully in terms of our finances, etc (and I presume in other areas as well :). Her two hangups with this venture are that she is very financially risk-averse and has become very happy with our steady biweekly paychecks (she works fulltime as well, for the time being). Second, she worries that what little free time I have at home now will dwindle to nothing. I can do nothing at this point but try my best to assure her that I am embarking on this venture with the family’s future and well-being as my #1 concern, and I will do my very best at all times to not make the family take a backseat to the business.

I currently work a 9-to-5 corporate job in Manhattan, but am actively seeking a similar position closer to home. The reason for this change is twofold – first, the commute is tiring; but more importantly, working closer to home will allow me to be more active in viewing and visiting properties in the area during the day and before or after work. I consider this job change to be the first major step toward starting my real estate investing career. My long-term plan is for the 9-to-5 to fade away into oblivion, but that’s obviously very far down the line at this point.

I have partnered with a friend who I have been close to for almost 20 years now. We are similar in age, income level and family structure and our families are good friends as well. We have had many monetary dealings with each other in the past, and although we have never officially “gone into business” together, I have every confidence that this partnership will be a successful one.

In terms of our investment objectives, we would like to purchase rental properties (anywhere from SFHs to fourplexes) and hold long-term to reap the benefits of monthly rental income and appreciation. Unfortunately, in our area/market, property values are still so high that we are finding it difficult to locate rental properties that will cash flow, even when purchased at a FMV discount. So it looks like our first project will likely be a SFH rehab, which in our view is a solid alternative because it will allow us to:

- Develop our team (agent, attorney, mortgage broker/lender, accountant, contractors)
- Gain some real-life experience in terms of rehab costs, scheduling, etc.
- Give us the emotional satisfaction of having one deal under our belts (while at the same time reassuring our wives that this will be a sustainable business)
- Hopefully make a profit (however small it may be), which will give us additional equity to either put back into a second project or our first rental property

We feel there is significant value in the first three benefits, so much so that we view the fourth benefit almost as an afterthought (anything greater than zero post-tax will do just fine by us).

So, there is the background. I will follow up in a few days with our initial steps and our progress. In the meantime, if anyone has any questions or comments (positive or negative), please do not hold back. I’ll do my best to address them all to the best of my knowledge and ability (which, at this point, is quite limited but hopefully trending upward). And again, if this thread is not beneficial/entertaining to the forum and its readers, please let me know and I’ll put an end to it (I should probably be spending more time finding deals and less time writing anyway!)

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  • Real Estate Investor · Millsboro, DE · Member since 2008 · 120 posts · 7 votes
    18y

    So have you found a house to flip already or that's the plan for right now? Are yous keeping your full time jobs and doing this on the side? Good luck and keep us updated.

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "Crazy3rdgen":
    So have you found a house to flip already or that's the plan for right now? Are yous keeping your full time jobs and doing this on the side? Good luck and keep us updated.

    We met with an agent over the weekend and are looking thru property lists right now. We have identified one rehab that looks like it will work numbers-wise and will get out to see it over the next couple of days. I'll post some more details on the property in my next post.

    The plan is to keep our full-time jobs while we get started investing on the side. We have some capital at our disposal, but not nearly enough to quit and begin investing full-time yet (I don't think in terms of experience that we're ready to do that yet anyway). Down the road, both of our ideal lifestyles include investing and being our own (and each other's) bosses.

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    We met with an agent over the weekend that came recommended by a family friend, who is also an agent/investor. It was a very productive meeting, as it turns out he has years of experience dealing directly with bank-owned REOs, as well as being an investor himself. So, for our purposes, he sounds pretty much perfect. Let’s hope he proves to be as valuable to us long-term as he was during our first 2 hour meeting.

    So for the last few days we've been pouring thru numerous listings, most of which are bank-owned properties, some multi-unit rentals, some SFH rehabs. While our ultimate objective is to purchase and hold multi-unit rental properties, this does not look promising right now given the current state of our market. For example, here are a few of the multi-unit financial specs we've seen in our area so far (remember, these are in various states of disrepair):

    List price $239,900 / Monthly rents $2,100 = Cap rate 5.25%
    List price $279,900 / Monthly rents $1,500 = Cap rate 3.21%
    List price $289,900 / Monthly rents $2,500 = Cap rate 5.17%
    List price $390,000 / Monthly rents $3,200 = Cap rate 4.92%
    List price $420,000 / Monthly rents $3,300 = Cap rate 4.71%

    As you can see, unless we can find a BIG bargain somewhere, rentals just do not look feasible right now, at least until we are able to build up our capital reserve and increase our down payments.

    However, we did come across one SFH rehab that looks particularly attractive. Keep in mind, going into this venture I did not picture myself as a flipper and promised myself that this volatile market was not suitable for such a project. As fun as they are to watch on TV, flipping/rehab projects always seemed much better suited for more experienced (and handy, which we are not) investors and healthier markets.

    But… this property came recommended by our agent as one that had been on the market for a while and had several price reductions, as well as requiring very few if any structural improvements. My partner and I were able to drive by the property Sunday to check out the exterior, backyard, etc. and we agree that some cosmetic improvements would go a long way on this property.

    Next steps - I just got off the phone with two mortgage brokers to check out our financing options, and we need to decide when to form our entity and how to handle the purchase/financing (sign individually, then transfer to the LLC looks like the way to go). We plan to schedule an interior viewing for this weekend and it looks like we should be able to get our financing in place by early next week. Then comes an inspection, and hopefully an accepted offer (which will be a considerable percentage below the list price, mind you!)

    Will update next week with any progress we have made, and more details on our prospective rehab house. Keep the questions/comments coming, or please lock if too long and bloggish.

  • Real Estate Investor · Millsboro, DE · Member since 2008 · 120 posts · 7 votes
    18y

    hmm I hope i'm not the only one following this thread because I don't know too much (am learning) and it would be nice to hear from someone with a lot of experience.

    But is that the house you're sticking with planning to flip? The one you checked out and all. What's the price at now ? What are comps looking like in the area. Sorry if I didn't catch this but is all of the work getting done by you guys during the flip? or sub-contractors. Have all the tools needed or going to see what you need and then buy?

    Like I said i'm just starting out and my questions probably sound dumb to the bigger guys lol

  • Investor · Bellefonte, PA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 88 votes
    18y

    The properties with caps you listed, are they on the market right now, or are they deals that have closed and sold? There is a huge difference between what's on the market and what has sold. To get a feel for the caps in your area only look at sold properties.

    On another note most people pay to much for their properties so even looking at the sold caps doesn't dictate to you how much you should pay for the property.

    Get their numbers and substitute them with REAL numbers and add in all the expenses they left out (management, maintenance, cleaning, adverts, transportation cost, etc) and build your offer that way.

    -Michael

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "Crazy3rdgen":
    hmm I hope i'm not the only one following this thread because I don't know too much (am learning) and it would be nice to hear from someone with a lot of experience.

    But is that the house you're sticking with planning to flip? The one you checked out and all. What's the price at now ? What are comps looking like in the area. Sorry if I didn't catch this but is all of the work getting done by you guys during the flip? or sub-contractors. Have all the tools needed or going to see what you need and then buy?

    Like I said i'm just starting out and my questions probably sound dumb to the bigger guys lol

    Haha I hope you're not the only one also... although it's probably as beneficial (or even moreso) for me to put this stuff in writing as it might be for a new investor to read. I guess this is kind of my way to hold myself accountable, in the same vein as others writing down their goals and making sure to look at them every day.

    To answer your questions... Yes, the property I mentioned is the one we're ready to dive into, assuming the following:

    - The interior is void of any major defects that we couldn't see from the outside. We should know this by the end of the weekend, when we are able to schedule a viewing.
    - We are able to get the financing we need. We'd prefer to only take the down payment out of pocket, and borrow the remaining purchase price and all the rehab costs. I will provide firmer numbers for reference next week when I have gone thru our financing options with the broker.
    - The inspection goes as planned
    - Our agent or contractor can give us some suggestions about dealing with the property's only major visible flaw - the house next door looks like a bomb hit it (complete disrepair, living room furniture and car parts in the backyard, etc)

    We should be able to purchase the property for $180k-$185k and comps in the area have recently sold for around $260k-$270k, so we are hoping that there is enough profit built in that even if we screw up a few times (which seems inevitable to me), we can still finish in the black.

    We are both handy to the point of being able to maintain our own personal residences, but in terms of running a rehab project we will be seeking all the contractor help we can get.

    And don't worry about asking questions, I'm sure most of my answers seem clueless and unrealistic to more experienced investors too =)

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "dafly":
    The properties with caps you listed, are they on the market right now, or are they deals that have closed and sold? There is a huge difference between what's on the market and what has sold. To get a feel for the caps in your area only look at sold properties.

    On another note most people pay to much for their properties so even looking at the sold caps doesn't dictate to you how much you should pay for the property.

    Get their numbers and substitute them with REAL numbers and add in all the expenses they left out (management, maintenance, cleaning, adverts, transportation cost, etc) and build your offer that way.

    Thanks, this is a good point. I listed above only the cap rates that I would theoretically be buying at if I were to pay full price for these properties that are currently on the market. For the purposes of calculating these cap rates I am assuming 50% of rents goes toward operating expenses.

    In order to attach a more realistic value to these properties I will ask the realtor for a listing of recent multifamily sales and figure out the cap rates that were applied to those sales. Then, apply an "average" cap rate based on these sales to these current properties to determine true FMV to us... if I'm following correctly.

  • Investor · Bellefonte, PA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 88 votes
    18y

    Don't get too focused on cap rates and gross rent multipliers. the thing you want to focus most on is cashflow, how much cash it puts in your pocket per month. You can buy an infinite number of properties that cashflow, but you are limited on how many properties you can buy that don't flow.

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    I agree 100%. Especially since we will be using our personal savings and/or personal LOC's for our out-of-pocket needs, we will require positive cash flow from any property we choose... and our wives certainly will require this as well :D

    As I am new to this type of number crunching, please let me know if this doesn't make any sense --> I am using the cap rates above as a guideline to tell me if the rental will cash flow. Assuming the same financing arrangements for each property (10% down, 90% financed for properties in the same general price range), wouldn't comparing at the cap rates be a quick and dirty way to estimate the cash flow of each? If the monthly debt service is essentially equal across all options, I think I can establish a baseline cap rate (say 7% for example) that should produce cash flow starting year 1.

    Are there other cash flow factors that I'm leaving out of this? If so, I'll make sure to incorporate those into my calculations from now on.

    Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving all.

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    OK we've made some progress on two fronts with the rehab property, so here is a quick update.

    I spoke to two lenders and a broker to discuss financing alternatives, and we have settled on using a lender that was recommended by our agent. I think going into this we expected to be able to borrow enough to cover the rehab costs while keeping the down payment low as well, but after talking to these lenders that looks to be a bit unrealistic.

    The two basic options we have to choose from are a construction loan or a more traditional mortgage. Here are what we see as the plusses/minuses of each (we're assuming a $180K purchase price and $20K rehab costs, for lack of better estimates at this point):

    The construction loan requires 20% down but will allow us to borrow the full amount of the estimated rehab costs (and some additional soft costs as well). The downside (other than the 20% down part) is this is a much more involved process, which requires us to get estimates from our contractors beforehand, then have them reviewed and probably adjusted by the lender's contractors.

    The traditional mortgage will allow us to get by on only 10% down, and it lets us negotiate with the seller to contribute a portion of our closing costs (up to 3% of the purchase price) by building them into the sale price. The downsides here are a) we'll need to come up with the rehab costs out of pocket; b) the interest rate is considerably higher (9.5%) if we only put 10% down, whereas with 20% down we'll only pay 6.5%; c) in order to take full advantage of the seller closing cost contribution (up to 6% of the purchase price), we need to put 20% down.

    Right now we're leaning towards the tradtional mortgage with 10% down, as we'd like to keep our cash outlay to a minimum (especially on day one). We'll take care of the rehab and holding costs as we incur them.

    Also, we were able to get out to see the property yesterday. This was the first look we'd had at the inside, and it was pretty similar to what we expected in terms of cosmetic needs (I took some pics and will post them in a few days once i upload them onto the laptop). The interior work looks doable so we were encourgaed by the visit, but here are the matzo balls hanging out there that are still making us a little nervous:

    1) There was about 3 inches of water in the small basement/crawl space. There is a sump pump down there that is apparently out of order. Keep in mind that this is not usable space, and is certainly not included in the house's square footage, but is still concerning. We are clueless when it comes to this, so we'll be depending on the inspection to tell us the severity of the problem and suggest some possible solutions.

    2) The half bath downstairs looks like it was pretty much torn out by the previous owners in the process of changing out an old water heater for the current one. This leaves us a clean slate there, but we just need to make sure everything is still in working order.

    3) The house and yard next door looks like a war zone. Unfortunately there's not much we can do about it other than put up a fence, and even that won't really solve the problem.

    The next step looks like an offer, where plan to ask for the seller (the property is bank-owned) to contribute a portion of our closing costs, pending an inspection. Hopefully, the inspection will cure some of our concerns about the project and we can move forward from there.

    I will update with pics early next week. In the meantime, please fire away with any questions, criticisms or comments.

  • Member since 2008 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    Thanks for the story and the updates. It's very exciting listening to your story and should give every new investor a realistic idea of what to expect including the bad as well as the good. Keep us updated!

  • Involved In Real Estate · La Verne, CA · Member since 2008 · 47 posts · 1 vote
    18y

    Stan,

    Can you include the cost involved as you tell your experience?

    For example, how much was the inspection costs? I believe this is an out of pocket expense that cannot be included into financing. What other costs have you incurred?

    Keep up the good work.

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    Thanks for the comments guys. My partner and I got a bit skittish about the state of the surrounding houses so we're in a holding pattern for now. We need to make a decision on this one soon, then if need be get back out and see some more properties.

    I will follow up once we get off our asses and decide what to do here, and will be sure to include $ amounts for each phase as well.

    So far, this experience has certainly proven what I've read to be 100% true - the learning/planning is the easy part, gritting your teeth and taking the initial plunge is much more difficult.

  • Member since 2008 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    Yes I concur. After looking at 10 houses myself I found one that required only a little maintenance before it is move in ready. I put an offer in and when the counter came I chickened out and backed away.

    One reason was because I wanted to see what the Feds were going to do
    with interest rates since I will need to open a HELOC to afford a down payment but mostly I just crumbled on the whole thought of getting into something bigger than I am.

    I have done months of research and am currently taking real estate classes to get my license in Arizona but for some reason it was scary pulling the trigger. I consider myself an intelligent person but it's what I don't know that frightens me.

    How do you newb investors "know" when the time is right to act?

  • Investor · Bellefonte, PA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 88 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "hatrik13":

    How do you newb investors "know" when the time is right to act?

    If you chickened out you have not done enough research and learning about the business. I had squeamish thoughts on some properties I looked at 3 years ago when I first started learning about REI. After I educated myself with information on this site and the plethora of podcast out there on REI I had no problem writing an offer because I knew deep within that what I was doing was right and the risk I was taking was very minimal because of the countless hours I had spent immersing myself in REI and talking with other RE investors.

    -Michael

  • Accountant · Mahopac, NY · Member since 2008 · 14 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    I agree, for us I think it's a combination of lack of experience coupled with some nervousness about the state of the market in general. Good news is I don't think either of these is going to prevent us from making the leap sometime in the near future. So, we'll keep this property on the back burner for now and we'll get out again next week to check out a few more REO listings. I will update this thread again when we make some progress.

    One thing that has surprised me during this process is the amount of time these listings stay on the market. Going into this, I envisioned these properties making it thru auction, then being snapped up by savvy experienced investors before they even hit the MLS (and us having no chance at anything good). I've been surprised that, out of the ~40 REO listings we've looked at in the last six weeks, none have been purchased and several have even been reduced. I guess this speaks volumes to the state of the local market right now, for better or worse (let's hope better!)

  • Member since 2008 · 32 posts · 0 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "dafly":

    Don't be scared of the deal, if the comps look good, I mean really good then go for it. Everyone has to start somewhere and NO house will ever tell you that it is the one for you. Good posts, I like the info.

    this struck me as quite funny! although i am sure its true when we were searching for homes i kept stumbling upon these fixer uppers that i wished i could have gotten. although they needed some tweaking on the numbers and i don't know the real fix up costs vs. my guesstimates of them i would say that with an add't 20-30% off the current asking price they may have been good investments...the point of that ramble is that these houses seemed to be speaking to me. the neighborhoods were not GREAT but they were in the lower-middle class and still on the "good" side (as my realtor said). i actually saw that one of the houses that i looked at 2 1/2 months ago is still on the market! :shock: i think it needs to come down at least $30k in order to be a good investment but thats only according to zillow.com and not real comps. and i really didn't get to look at the inside but did peak through the windows. still..i might take a look at it and see if i can get more comps and assuming the worst until/if i take it a look at it.

    oh and i like reading this "blog post" i was actually going to see if anyone blogs about their rehabs i think its IMMENSLY helpful! books are always generalizing and seeing concrete ideas, problems and examples are helpful!

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