Hi Everyone!
I've spent the last few years watching and being inspired by Bigger Pockets. I am a dual citizen, and find Canadian real estate is just too expensive.
There are really cheap duplexes in the US, such as Jackson, MI (and other states) - there are fixer-uppers, some as low as 18 K. I know a lot of these houses are in cheaper neighbourhoods - but if the house is the worst one on the block and just needs TLC - why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing? I remember distinctly in some BP videos how they talked about buying low, fixing, and renting out - buying the worst house on a nice block.
My plan is to buy, and fix up - live in one side and rent out the other as a very very beginner. Is this likely a bad move for a beginner, as it could go all haywire with fixing? I don't want to get in over my head either - but I have lower savings and won't be approved for something over 175K.
Thanks for any insight!!
See the agents BiggerPockets members work with in Jackson, MS.
See agentsToo many newbies see cheap prices and feel they cant lose. There are tons of things to consider and if you really dont know what you are doing, its a significantly high failure rate. These are high failures for experienced investors. There are thousands of investors, virtual assistants, groups, organizations and so much more who sit around all day trying to scoup up any decent deal they can. If sitting a while, its most likely not a deal where the numbers work. Also, you want to house hack? If you land on a Class D are you equipped to live under stuff that may be foreign to you (property crimes, shootings, break ins)? Do you know how to manage tenants from this environment? It can be so so so different than managing class A and B. Many investors fail here because they dont understand the climate, people or culture, in addition to having no idea how to screen. My over all point is, stuff looks good and easy on paper but itś not. Many things to consider and tons of research is necessary. I specialize in these areas and Iḿ telling you, you really need to know and understand what you are getting into. Super cheap in multiple cases means class d. If you become well schooled and thoroughly understand all the dynamics you can make tons of profit.
it is POSSIBLE to fix something up and really boost the value as you described, but it's also very difficult. here in Pittsburgh, for example, you can buy a house in a decent neighborhood for 50-80K, rehab for 50-100K, and boost the value significantly... although if you buy for 80, rehab for 80, and the ARV is 150, you might have a nice house, and you might have done a nice job on the renovation.. but it won't have made sense as an investment. and appraisers couldn't care less what you spent or how hard you worked or your new granite countertops. they value based on COMPS.
the trick in any city is knowing in which neighborhoods, and on which streets, to buy. i don't know anything about Jackson but i suspect an 18K house is going to be very, very challenging to renovate and might be in a more challenging neighborhood - so tough to manage and keep up when done.
some of these houses ARE being scooped up, and others aren't. some people are good at doing these big rehabs, and others aren't. some people go in thinking it will be 40K to rehab, and it ends up being 100K. like these folks.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/853/topics/1152071-help...
so... don't do what they did.
hope this helps.
it is POSSIBLE to fix something up and really boost the value as you described, but it's also very difficult. here in Pittsburgh, for example, you can buy a house in a decent neighborhood for 50-80K, rehab for 50-100K, and boost the value significantly... although if you buy for 80, rehab for 80, and the ARV is 150, you might have a nice house, and you might have done a nice job on the renovation.. but it won't have made sense as an investment. and appraisers couldn't care less what you spent or how hard you worked or your new granite countertops. they value based on COMPS.
the trick in any city is knowing in which neighborhoods, and on which streets, to buy. i don't know anything about Jackson but i suspect an 18K house is going to be very, very challenging to renovate and might be in a more challenging neighborhood - so tough to manage and keep up when done.
some of these houses ARE being scooped up, and others aren't. some people are good at doing these big rehabs, and others aren't. some people go in thinking it will be 40K to rehab, and it ends up being 100K. like these folks.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/853/topics/1152071-help...
so... don't do what they did.
hope this helps.
Thank you Nick for your input. You described buy for 80, rehab for 80, ARV 150. Is that still not good value how-ever if the duplex cash flows after I move out? Regardless of the ARV being a little bit less. Thank you for that side of it!
it's probably not good value... here's roughly how the numbers would break down. if you did that, you could refinance and get 70-75% of the 150 out, minus refi fees. so you might get 100-105K out. but you spent 160K... plus holding costs, plus closing costs on the buy, etc. so you're into that deal for 60-70K of your own cash. that would not make any sense - if you want to spend 60K, you can buy something in better shape. or just put it in a savings account.
make sense?
it's probably not good value... here's roughly how the numbers would break down. if you did that, you could refinance and get 70-75% of the 150 out, minus refi fees. so you might get 100-105K out. but you spent 160K... plus holding costs, plus closing costs on the buy, etc. so you're into that deal for 60-70K of your own cash. that would not make any sense - if you want to spend 60K, you can buy something in better shape. or just put it in a savings account.
make sense?
Got it! Thank you! I will take this away and do some more research. Thank you so much!
Well the big downside is of course, if it doesn't go as planned, losing a big pile of money :)
"why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing?"
A question every buyer should be thinking about or asking. There are companies scouring every inch of real estate, coast to coast, who do this full time, have plenty of funding, experience, and often, political connections- they can definately see these properties, yet haven't snatched them up before you.
Too small of a project for them perhaps? all of them? Or maybe the numbers don't add up. The chances that something of value is just left sitting around on the shelf for retail level amateurs in these market conditions are pretty low. Not impossible. But really low.
This is why you have to be able to estimate all of it accurately yourself, or you're jumping in blind to a potential money pit.
Hi Everyone!
I've spent the last few years watching and being inspired by Bigger Pockets. I am a dual citizen, and find Canadian real estate is just too expensive.
There are really cheap duplexes in the US, such as Jackson, MI (and other states) - there are fixer-uppers, some as low as 18 K. I know a lot of these houses are in cheaper neighbourhoods - but if the house is the worst one on the block and just needs TLC - why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing? I remember distinctly in some BP videos how they talked about buying low, fixing, and renting out - buying the worst house on a nice block.
My plan is to buy, and fix up - live in one side and rent out the other as a very very beginner. Is this likely a bad move for a beginner, as it could go all haywire with fixing? I don't want to get in over my head either - but I have lower savings and won't be approved for something over 175K.
Thanks for any insight!!
Thank you so much Malachi! I have seen some videos where investors purposefully invest in places that are not growing (in fact the most recent one I watched, the population is DECLINING) but because often the median income is low, they cannot afford to buy housing. I forget the location but something major happened there causing tons of people to move, and it's almost a ghost town.
Yet many investors say the opposite of this.
I guess I will need someone to bounce these off before I really make the big decision and thank you for all that info!
Well the big downside is of course, if it doesn't go as planned, losing a big pile of money :)
"why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing?"
A question every buyer should be thinking about or asking. There are companies scouring every inch of real estate, coast to coast, who do this full time, have plenty of funding, experience, and often, political connections- they can definately see these properties, yet haven't snatched them up before you.
Too small of a project for them perhaps? all of them? Or maybe the numbers don't add up. The chances that something of value is just left sitting around on the shelf for retail level amateurs in these market conditions are pretty low. Not impossible. But really low.
This is why you have to be able to estimate all of it accurately yourself, or you're jumping in blind to a potential money pit.
Thanks Ralph.... as they say... if it's too good to be true it's probably not real. Though - anything could be a deal at the right cost perhaps? But often these seem like they aren't worth pursuing.
Well the big downside is of course, if it doesn't go as planned, losing a big pile of money :)
"why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing?"
A question every buyer should be thinking about or asking. There are companies scouring every inch of real estate, coast to coast, who do this full time, have plenty of funding, experience, and often, political connections- they can definately see these properties, yet haven't snatched them up before you.
Too small of a project for them perhaps? all of them? Or maybe the numbers don't add up. The chances that something of value is just left sitting around on the shelf for retail level amateurs in these market conditions are pretty low. Not impossible. But really low.
This is why you have to be able to estimate all of it accurately yourself, or you're jumping in blind to a potential money pit.
Thanks Ralph.... as they say... if it's too good to be true it's probably not real. Though - anything could be a deal at the right cost perhaps? But often these seem like they aren't worth pursuing.
I just noticed something. Nova Scotia. Have you been to Jackson, MI before?
One reason people don't buy cheap houses is you need to consider your tenant base. Many new investors learn the relationship between bad areas and bad tenants the hard way. Cheap properties can look great on paper but you often end up with high maintenance and high vacancy.
Well the big downside is of course, if it doesn't go as planned, losing a big pile of money :)
"why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing?"
A question every buyer should be thinking about or asking. There are companies scouring every inch of real estate, coast to coast, who do this full time, have plenty of funding, experience, and often, political connections- they can definately see these properties, yet haven't snatched them up before you.
Too small of a project for them perhaps? all of them? Or maybe the numbers don't add up. The chances that something of value is just left sitting around on the shelf for retail level amateurs in these market conditions are pretty low. Not impossible. But really low.
This is why you have to be able to estimate all of it accurately yourself, or you're jumping in blind to a potential money pit.
Thanks Ralph.... as they say... if it's too good to be true it's probably not real. Though - anything could be a deal at the right cost perhaps? But often these seem like they aren't worth pursuing.
I just noticed something. Nova Scotia. Have you been to Jackson, MI before?
I haven’t- I know there are rough neighborhoods but I’m not set- I’m mostly looking for a cheaper duplex that allow me to house hack and save, and in a decent area! I’m not set anywhere in particular but I think it’ll take me a lot of research as it’s hard from a distance to see what may be a good or bad Street.
When investing in areas they don’t really know, investors should research the different property Class submarkets. If you apply Class A assumptions to a Class B or C purchase, your expectations won’t be met and it may be a financial disaster.
Our OPINION for the Metro Detroit market (always verify each area for yourself!):
Class A Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% the more recent norm.
Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 680+, zero evictions in last 7 years.
Class B Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, decent amount of relative rent & value appreciation.
Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% should be applied only if proper research done to support.
Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 620-680, some blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 5 years
Class C Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, high cashflow and at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation. Can try to reposition to Class B, but neighborhood may impede these efforts.
Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, but 15-20% should be used to also cover nonpayment, eviction costs & damages.
Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores of 560-620, many blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 2 years. Verifying last 2 years of rental history very important! Also, focus on 2 years of job/income stability.
Class D Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with zero or negative relative rent & value appreciation
Vacancy Est: 20%+ should be used to cover nonpayment, evictions & damages.
Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores under 560, little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, recent evictions. Verifying last 2 years of rental history and income extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.
Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.
When investing in areas they don’t really know, investors should research the different property Class submarkets. If you apply Class A assumptions to a Class B or C purchase, your expectations won’t be met and it may be a financial disaster.
Our OPINION for the Metro Detroit market (always verify each area for yourself!):
Class A Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% the more recent norm.
Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 680+, zero evictions in last 7 years.
Class B Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, decent amount of relative rent & value appreciation.
Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% should be applied only if proper research done to support.
Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 620-680, some blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 5 years
Class C Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, high cashflow and at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation. Can try to reposition to Class B, but neighborhood may impede these efforts.
Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, but 15-20% should be used to also cover nonpayment, eviction costs & damages.
Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores of 560-620, many blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 2 years. Verifying last 2 years of rental history very important! Also, focus on 2 years of job/income stability.
Class D Properties:
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with zero or negative relative rent & value appreciation
Vacancy Est: 20%+ should be used to cover nonpayment, evictions & damages.
Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores under 560, little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, recent evictions. Verifying last 2 years of rental history and income extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.
Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.
Thank you for this! I was actually just looking at this break down for another city - I appreciate this it helps a lot!!
2 things
1, if you're going to house hack you don't need something cheap in need of a major rehab. in Pittsburgh for example a lot of the duplexes and triplexes are big houses that were divided up, and so the units are different sizes. there might be a triplex with a 2 BR, a 1 BR and a studio. or a duplex with a 3 BR and a 1 BR. you could buy it, live in the smaller unit and rent out the bigger unit and even at today's rates, do really well in terms of rent vs. mortgage. (not a plug for pittsburgh, just an example). this is the unique advantage of house hacking. and again, you're not trying to be at $0 each month. you're just trying to spend equal to or less than you would renting. so if renting would be $1200 a month, and your net payment on a house hack is $847, you're way ahead, because not only are you spending less, you're building equity. the equity is the big advantage.
i'll repeat that. the equity is the advantage!
i am seriously not trying to talk you into moving to the US. just trying to steer you off of something that needs a monster rehab. it's not necessary for a house hack.
2, there are absolutely markets in which there is NO PRICE at which a certain property is a good deal. maybe not in LA... but in the midwest for example, it's perfectly possible to buy a house for $1, fix it up for 100K, and when it's done it's worth... 100K. again, there is nothing wrong with that. that is awesome. it's great for the neighborhood. granite countertops are nice looking. it's just not a good INVESTMENT.
2 things
1, if you're going to house hack you don't need something cheap in need of a major rehab. in Pittsburgh for example a lot of the duplexes and triplexes are big houses that were divided up, and so the units are different sizes. there might be a triplex with a 2 BR, a 1 BR and a studio. or a duplex with a 3 BR and a 1 BR. you could buy it, live in the smaller unit and rent out the bigger unit and even at today's rates, do really well in terms of rent vs. mortgage. (not a plug for pittsburgh, just an example). this is the unique advantage of house hacking. and again, you're not trying to be at $0 each month. you're just trying to spend equal to or less than you would renting. so if renting would be $1200 a month, and your net payment on a house hack is $847, you're way ahead, because not only are you spending less, you're building equity. the equity is the big advantage.
i'll repeat that. the equity is the advantage!
i am seriously not trying to talk you into moving to the US. just trying to steer you off of something that needs a monster rehab. it's not necessary for a house hack.
2, there are absolutely markets in which there is NO PRICE at which a certain property is a good deal. maybe not in LA... but in the midwest for example, it's perfectly possible to buy a house for $1, fix it up for 100K, and when it's done it's worth... 100K. again, there is nothing wrong with that. that is awesome. it's great for the neighborhood. granite countertops are nice looking. it's just not a good INVESTMENT.
For me, I say something that might be considered a “fixer upper” because I won’t be approved for a big mortgage, and don’t come with a lot of cash for a down payment. So likely something may need to be updated is probably going to fit into my budget. but I’ll need to look in some other markets, just didn’t see that much available under 200!
is your issue the down payment, or qualifying for the loan amount? or both? i agree... i think the kind of property i'm talking about is probably in the low 200s. but if you look at 10 or 20 or 50 maybe you'll find a deal... most people don't want to put in that kind of work.
and, a fixer upper isn't "cheap" either... because it has to be fixed up. you could easily be more out of pocket on a fixer upper (until you refinance) than with a low down payment on something in better shape.
is your issue the down payment, or qualifying for the loan amount? or both? i agree... i think the kind of property i'm talking about is probably in the low 200s. but if you look at 10 or 20 or 50 maybe you'll find a deal... most people don't want to put in that kind of work.
and, a fixer upper isn't "cheap" either... because it has to be fixed up. you could easily be more out of pocket on a fixer upper (until you refinance) than with a low down payment on something in better shape.
I’m meeting with a US broker to get an idea of what I’ll be approved for- in Canada I’m not approved for much (just under 200 which gets you nothing at all in Canada) but with moving to the US and the dollar being worth more, it plays into my advantage once I get a U.S. job. My issue will be low approval and low down payment (I’ll have 10 K USD) so I haven’t got many options! Seller financing might be another way I could uniquely fund which could be hard to find however.
OK. i'd recommend you have comfortable down payment + closing costs + reserves. good luck.
Hi Chanel, I would recommend having a general contractor walk any property that you're considering purchasing and get their opinion of the house and also the street its on. I would also reach out to a real estate agent in that area and get their opinion. They can help you run comps and show you what the house could sell for after repairs. There are a lot of local real estate professionals in every market who would love to share their knowledge with you. Referrals are best, but you can also research them online to see what they're putting out there and what people are saying about them. Don't try to do this all on your own, especially for your first project! Have you made any connections in Jackson yet? I would start with joining a Facebook group for real estate investors in that area.
I will also plug Pittsburgh because it's one of the most affordable real estate markets and one of the most liveable cities in the US. Worth looking into!
Well the big downside is of course, if it doesn't go as planned, losing a big pile of money :)
"why are these houses not being scooped up? What am I missing?"
A question every buyer should be thinking about or asking. There are companies scouring every inch of real estate, coast to coast, who do this full time, have plenty of funding, experience, and often, political connections- they can definately see these properties, yet haven't snatched them up before you.
Too small of a project for them perhaps? all of them? Or maybe the numbers don't add up. The chances that something of value is just left sitting around on the shelf for retail level amateurs in these market conditions are pretty low. Not impossible. But really low.
This is why you have to be able to estimate all of it accurately yourself, or you're jumping in blind to a potential money pit.
Thanks Ralph.... as they say... if it's too good to be true it's probably not real. Though - anything could be a deal at the right cost perhaps? But often these seem like they aren't worth pursuing.
I just noticed something. Nova Scotia. Have you been to Jackson, MI before?
I haven’t- I know there are rough neighborhoods but I’m not set- I’m mostly looking for a cheaper duplex that allow me to house hack and save, and in a decent area! I’m not set anywhere in particular but I think it’ll take me a lot of research as it’s hard from a distance to see what may be a good or bad Street.
Just curious...
You are referencing Jackson, Mi but the tag on the initial post is for Jackson, Ms.
Which is it?
2 things
1, if you're going to house hack you don't need something cheap in need of a major rehab. in Pittsburgh for example a lot of the duplexes and triplexes are big houses that were divided up, and so the units are different sizes. there might be a triplex with a 2 BR, a 1 BR and a studio. or a duplex with a 3 BR and a 1 BR. you could buy it, live in the smaller unit and rent out the bigger unit and even at today's rates, do really well in terms of rent vs. mortgage. (not a plug for pittsburgh, just an example). this is the unique advantage of house hacking. and again, you're not trying to be at $0 each month. you're just trying to spend equal to or less than you would renting. so if renting would be $1200 a month, and your net payment on a house hack is $847, you're way ahead, because not only are you spending less, you're building equity. the equity is the big advantage.
i'll repeat that. the equity is the advantage!
i am seriously not trying to talk you into moving to the US. just trying to steer you off of something that needs a monster rehab. it's not necessary for a house hack.
2, there are absolutely markets in which there is NO PRICE at which a certain property is a good deal. maybe not in LA... but in the midwest for example, it's perfectly possible to buy a house for $1, fix it up for 100K, and when it's done it's worth... 100K. again, there is nothing wrong with that. that is awesome. it's great for the neighborhood. granite countertops are nice looking. it's just not a good INVESTMENT.
Fantastic stuff in this post from Nicholas ^
Just curious...
You are referencing Jackson, Mi but the tag on the initial post is for Jackson, Ms.
Which is it?
I was originally talking about Jackson, MS! (MI was typo) But that was merely just an example, I see these low priced home in multiple spots.
Too many newbies see cheap prices and feel they cant lose. There are tons of things to consider and if you really dont know what you are doing, its a significantly high failure rate. These are high failures for experienced investors. There are thousands of investors, virtual assistants, groups, organizations and so much more who sit around all day trying to scoup up any decent deal they can. If sitting a while, its most likely not a deal where the numbers work. Also, you want to house hack? If you land on a Class D are you equipped to live under stuff that may be foreign to you (property crimes, shootings, break ins)? Do you know how to manage tenants from this environment? It can be so so so different than managing class A and B. Many investors fail here because they dont understand the climate, people or culture, in addition to having no idea how to screen. My over all point is, stuff looks good and easy on paper but itś not. Many things to consider and tons of research is necessary. I specialize in these areas and Iḿ telling you, you really need to know and understand what you are getting into. Super cheap in multiple cases means class d. If you become well schooled and thoroughly understand all the dynamics you can make tons of profit.