BiggerPockets Podcast 018 with Danny Johnson Transcript

Link to show: BP Podcast 018: Flipping, Marketing, and Wholesaling with Danny Johnson

Josh: This is the BiggerPockets Podcast Show 18.

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Josh: Hey everybody, this is Josh Dorkin, the host of Bigger Pockets Podcast. Here with my co-host, Brandon Turner. What is happening Brandon?

Brandon: Hey Josh, not much happening. What is happening with you?

Josh: Aw man. Just you know, rocking out, another show, Show 18. Very excited to be here. We’ve got an awesome guest, Mr. Danny Johnson. A little bit about Danny, Danny is actually—Danny’s been around BP for awhile and certainly around the flipping scene. He runs a very popular blog, FlippingJunkie.com. He’s also one of our regular contributors on the BiggerPockets Blog with a weekly column. He’s actually been investing since 2003 and has been full time since ’06. I believe he and his company flip somewhere between 25 and 30 houses a year. He also whole sales, does buy and hold, he’s got a ton of insight that he can share to help us out and so we’re super excited. Before we get to Danny though, we’ve got something really important we’ve got to do. Our?

Brandon: Quick Tip.

Josh: Quick Tip. Nailed it. Here’s today’s Quick Tip, if you guys have any questions or comments for any of the guests here on the podcast, make sure to jump into the show notes. Leave comments below the notes. All of our—all of our guests actually follow the show notes, if you’ve got a question about something, just jump in and leave a comment or even if you thought it was great and helpful, you know, leave some feedback because these guys thrive from the feedback they get. You know, it makes it worth the time that they spent to be on the show. That’s today’s Quick Tip, without further ado, Brandon.

Brandon: Let’s do it.

Josh:We are going to bring out Danny Johnson. Danny, nice to have you here, welcome to the show.

Danny: Great, how are you Josh?

Josh: I am doing well, what about Brandon?

Brandon: I’m also doing well.

Josh: Aren’t you concerned about his well being?

Danny: Of course, I was going to get to that. I was going to let you speak first so I do—I do appreciate you guys having me on the show. Thank you.

Brandon: Yeah, no problem. We’re glad to have you.

Josh:Absolutely. Absolutely.

Brandon: Why don’t we jump right into this. I stole your line Josh.

Josh: You totally stole my line. Jump right into this Brandon.

Brandon: Alright, let’s do it. Danny, you are a house flipper, obviously.

Danny: Yeah.

Brandon: You are on a blog about it. I think you probably do a little bit more, but we’ll get into that. Why don’t we start at the very, very, beginning, a very good place to start.

Josh: Get to the question B.

Brandon: That’s a reference from Sound of Music, anyway, how did you get into flipping?

Danny: See I was a software engineer, a software developer really, I went to college and got a degree in computer science and was a software developer, working in an office. I was a defense contractor so it was a top secret or secret kind of thing where you know.

Brandon: Nice.

Danny: In rooms without windows, things like that, but, you know, going into the office everyday and sitting there and working. For awhile, it was interesting and it was I thought what I wanted, but you know, after awhile, it just got to a point where I just couldn’t stand it anymore. I mean, just being there and having to do the same ole thing over and over and no more being able to be creative or anything.

You know, I was basically doing the same sorts of programs and it just seemed like everybody else there was pretty miserable for the most part. It was like, “Why do people do this? Why am I doing this?” I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know there were options like what else could I do? If I went to another job, would it be the same? Just to—while I was in college, my father actually started real estate investing so I got to see his progression from just getting started and just really taking off.

Just seeing his excitement and the vitality and the you know, every time I talked to him it was something new. He had all these different stories and this and that was happening. It’s like never before was it like that and so, you know, more and more I just felt like, “Wow, I’ve got to do that.” You know, that’s what I’ve got to do. I want to be out there everyday, hustling and making it for myself so, so I started studying and educating myself and an important thing to tell people too is a lot of people might think, well, you know, you’re father was doing it so he kind of mentored you.

You had a mentor, but the thing was he didn’t take me by the hand and show me step by step what to do. I got educated and started doing my own thing and whenever I had some questions about something specific, I could call and ask him and he would help me out with it. He wanted me to do my own thing and I don’t know if that makes a lot of sense, but.

Brandon: Actually, I just commented on somebody’s blog last night on Ben Leybovich’s blog post and I said, “I think that’s what an ideal mentor is, somebody who fills in the gaps. They’re not just necessarily there to teach as they are to fill the gaps and you need to learn yourself.” That’s what exactly I was thinking.

Josh: Well, you’ve got to put in the work. That’s the bottom line.

Danny: Right. Right and I think a lot of the people that go into it thinking I’m not going to do anything until I find a mentor to hold my hand and show me exactly what to do. That’s not going to work. You’ve got to get past that. You’ve got move to where you’re hustling. You’re doing it and you’re making your way. It doesn’t mean go and buy a house and figure it out. Baby steps. You know, go out and start looking at houses, talking to realtors, finding out what houses are selling for. You got to get out there on the streets, you can’t just sit behind a computer and expect to go from you know the point of not knowing anything to going out and buying your first flip.

Brandon: That’s awesome.

Danny: It’s going to take getting out on the streets and doing stuff. I educated myself and you know, thankfully, my wife was onboard 100% and so she was okay with the afternoons and evenings and weekends, doing things. You know doing all the marketing that we were doing because we started doing marketing to motivate sellers, which I suggest for everybody just because there’s so much competition with the bank going foreclosures. We started with that. We started marketing with motivated sellers. I tell the story, I’m sure the people that subscribe to my blog, have heard this one several times, but when we got that first phone call, from a motivated seller. I was so nervous I threw the phone at my wife. She had to take the call because I couldn’t bring the nerve to actually ask. I just froze, I didn’t know what to ask. I didn’t know.

Josh: Way to be brave Danny.

Danny: I’m a fierce—but after I saw her do it then I was able to do it the next time, plus I was so embarrassed by it, but.

Josh: Now it’s out there so there’s nothing to be embarrassed about.

Brandon: Actually, everybody knows.

Danny: It’s really my wife running everything. I’m just the face of the—I just talk about what she does. I’m trying to remember where I was in the whole thing. We started doing the motivated seller marketing and even with that, you know, my father wasn’t telling me, market to these people or do this. I just learned and grabbed a couple things, couple techniques, things like direct marketing, sending letters to owners, driving for dollars, which I absolutely love.

That’s a great way for people to start because they get to know their areas and the different parts of town and you drive through them and some of the areas you might not even be aware are in your city and that investors are actively rehabbing. If you don’t know what driving for dollars is, it’s where you go out and you look for vacant run down houses in neighborhoods and get the address of the owners to those houses from, usually, the county appraisal district’s website and then mail to them, direct mail. We did that, we got some success, we got a great deal that was a pretty crazy deal as it turns out and I could go into that if you guys want me to. That first deal.

Josh: We’ll definitely get—real quick, we actually just put out a couple articles on driving for dollars. I think it was Chris Feltus who had written them. We’ll link to those, they’re really comprehensive and anybody listening can come and check them out. We’ll have them in the show notes at BiggerPockets.com/Show18. Let’s get to that first deal, what was it? If you remember the numbers or anything great, if not give us the low down, the down and dirty.

Danny: Okay, I absolutely remember the numbers because it was pretty simple, in terms of numbers, but as far as process of buying the house and to making money was pretty complicated. What happened was, we found this house that had been burned. There was some fire damage to the property, driving by, was overgrown, there was a bunch of smoke, on the outside, broken out windows and the roof was even, you know, had a hole in it from where the fire had burned so hot it had burned through the roof. We sent a postcard to the owners of that house and they and they called us, and when I say us, my wife, and I.

We went over to the house and agreed to buy the house for $25,000 and the thing was they actually owed a little over 60, I think it was $65,000. We had to do a short sale because we would have to get the bank to approve less than what was owed on a property so we found a realtor that was, had done some short sales and she was willing to work with us and submitted the package to the bank. We—we—the bank approved the short sale $25,000 so we could buy—you know, pay off the loan for $25,000, when the loan amounted, the balance was something like $65,000 and the sellers ended up having a problem with that, they wanted to know why the bank was willing to sell us—you know, to accept $25,000 from us when they wouldn’t accept it from them.

I’m not sure why that didn’t come up when we were signing the contract saying that we were going to be offering that much, but make a long story short, they ended up saying that they weren’t going to go to closing and they weren’t going to sell the house. We were—we had done a lot of work to that point and were pretty frustrated, but the bank actually ended up coming back to us and saying why don’t you guys buy the note from us. Now, these people hadn’t paid for over a year on this property, it was so far back behind and they said, why don’t you buy the note from us, we want to sell it to you.

Brandon: For $25,000.

Danny: Right. For $25,000, so sure, ok, well we did this work let’s buy that note for $25,000 and the people weren’t living in the house obviously. It was burned and they accepted the insurance money and somehow, went spent it on another property instead of doing the right thing and fixing it up. I’m not sure what the difficulty was with the bank, but, so we ended up buying this note. At that point, I was finding out, well, now, either they start paying or we foreclose and take the house because they haven’t paid in a year.

You know, I was really not wanting to do that and you know, as luck would have it, an attorney ended up talking to the sellers, okay, and he was an investor and he actually wanted to buy house so he had been talking with the seller. The attorney had contacted us and said Look, we know that you own this note now and was wondering if would accept a short sale of $50,000 for this note that has the face value of $65,000. The funny thing was, the bank, actually, whenever we bought the note, they waited until we were closing on a note to tell us we can’t find the note, the actual note. We’ll have to give you an affidavit that we had the note, and that you’re buying. We’re buying basically an affidavit. It’s like wow, this could get hairy, you know. By him coming along and saying that he would be willing to buy, you know, to pay it off for 50 was a God send because then we were able to sign a release and accept the $50,000. We made—we bought the note for 25 and ended up selling it for 50 and making $25,000. That was the first flip, I don’t think we’ve had one as crazy since, you know.

Josh: This was a no repair needed flip? Very nice.

Danny: Right. Right.

Josh: Very nice. No, that’s an awesome deal, I don’t think I’ve actually heard of something similar happening. I’m sure it does, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of the bank saying, here you know, just take the note.

Brandon: Yeah.

Danny: Right. Right and that’s one of those things, if we hadn’t gotten out of our comfort zone and said we’re going to figure this out along the way. If we tried to plan out everything, we would have never than that deal. I mean we had to plan the next steps, but if we were try to go from start to finish, we would never, ever come up with all the possibilities of something like that happening and being prepared for it. It’s kind of one of those things where you adjust as you go.

Brandon: Yeah.

Josh: That’s great. How about your first, we’ll call it traditional flip? Right, the first rehab and renovation.

Brandon: Fix and flip.

Josh: Fix and flip or renovation. Thank you for the correction Brandon.

Danny: Okay, that one was the property that I put some bandit signs out and just a quick warning for people, most places, bandit signs are illegal so you need to check the local jurisdictions, authorities, whatever, to find out. A lot of places you can buy permits to do this so check with those, don’t just put bandit signs up.

Josh: I was not aware of those permits by the way, that’s a great little tidbit. Danny, sorry to interrupt.

Brandon: That’s no problem. Here yeah, you can pay for permits per sign to put out. Let’s see what, the gentleman called me on my bandit sign and I went and looked at the house and it didn’t need a whole lot. It was a house that needed paint and carpet so we estimated $5,000 on the fix up and we ended up buying it, I think, it was $20,000 so we we’re into this property for $25,000 and we sold it with owner financing. Because at the time, a lot of people were owner financing and immediately selling the notes, so you could do a close where you would sell the house and on the same day, you would sell the notes as well and those buyers were paying you know, 90% of note value of 90, even in the mid 90s. You could get full profit out immediately that way and we actually did that deal that way.

Brandon: Interesting, yeah, I never really thought about that strategy. Would that work as well today, did you do anymore of that seller financing, selling the note today?

Danny: No, no, it’s cause people want them for—they’re not paying as much for the notes. I do know some people that are doing similar things, but they’re not getting near as much for the notes. They’re having to take a reduced price for them.

Josh: Danny, what market was that in? You know we’ve got people from New York and California listening here and $20,000, they’re thinking Detroit. They’re I go beating up on Detroit again man.

Brandon: You do like to beat up on Detroit.

Josh: San Antonio, Houston?

Danny: It’s San Antonio. It’s also kind of in the lower end area. I mean, that’s not a typical residential, you know, residential, decent residential area. It was a—and that was the reason for the owner financing, it wasn’t an area where typically people would be able to get bank loans and you know, buy the house retail, which is what we focus on now.

Josh: You focus more on the retail side?

Danny: Right, we focus more on, yeah, we buy them and sell them, and people get FHA loans typically, to buy the houses that we fix up now.

Brandon: Let’s actually—let’s actually talk about your kind of current business model then. How many flips do you usually do at a time? What do they look like? What are you paying for them? Stuff like that.

Danny: Okay, well, basically we have slow times and busy times, I’m sure investors experience that where you kind of get a flood of properties and then you kind of have a lull where you’re focusing on taking care of properties, at least we do. When we get busy, we’re typically handling anywhere from eight to 13, 14 properties at a time.

Brandon: Wow.

Danny: At the process of being purchased, fixed up, sold and I guess that would average to about two or three a month and then the price ranges, it really kind of varies because with my marketing to motivated sellers, I have a lot of people calling me so I’m not targeting specific houses, or even specific areas so it changes. Typically, I’m buying from between $30,000 to $60,000 and fixing up from anywhere between 5 to 15, 20 and we’re selling for anywhere from $80-$130. I’d say, I typically shoot for 65% of the after repaired value instead of the 70 that most people do.

Brandon: Okay.

Josh: It’s great you can actually make that happen.

Danny: Yeah, I might pass up, I might miss a couple because of that, but also, at the other side of that coin though is if you don’t ever shoot and ask for less, you won’t ever get, show less. You know, so that works out for me.

Josh: You know that brings up something interesting. I actually just read an article about the shark tank, I’m sure, I’m sure a lot of people listening to the show watch this. It was kind of these rules for being successful there. The number one rule was always negotiate, always, always negotiate. Don’t just take the offer. Don’t, you know, because out of excitement all these guys, you know, jump on that first offer and I think a lot of real estate investors do that as well, it’s like they’ll get an offer, potentially, they’ll get a response to their offers and they’re not going to counter. It’s like, well, you might as well take a chance.

Danny: Right, right, yeah, it never hurts to ask cause you’ll never get it if you never ask and that gets into the whole thing where, I’m sure you’ve heard it before and I think I just wrote an article with that in there as far as being embarrassed by your offers. If you’re not embarrassed by your offer, you’re just offering too much. If you’re happy with what you’re offering, if anything, they’re going to be they’re going to be gung ho about it, if anything, you’re just offering far too much.

Brandon: That’s good.

Josh: Can I go on top of that for a second? Because I saw a show on TV last night, I don’t know what it was, it was one of these flipping shows, the guy had put an offer on a house and he, you know, it was like he pulled the offer out of the air. You know. This offer was like magical, he was like oh well, it seems like this might work, and he pulled it out. He didn’t do the math, maybe he did, but on the show he didn’t, and you know, I know a lot of people watching that are like oh ok, well, I guess, maybe I just go out and make some generic offer. You had talked about the 65 and 70% rules, but you know, I want to press, how important it is to stick to your numbers, right, I mean because if you’re—if you’re just pulling numbers out of the air, you’re going to find yourself, way deep upside down, by the time your flip is over. Aren’t you?

Danny: Oh right, right and I have people asking me all the time to analyze certain deals for them and they say, what’s a good price to offer on this deal and it just—it amazes me because I don’t ever have the information I need to make that deal. I’m not sure, it’s just not coming across, maybe some people just don’t understand enough to where they’ve got to get the after repair value. You have to figure out what that house is going to be worth once it’s fixed up. If you don’t have that number, you can’t figure anything out.

Josh: Then that leads to knowing your market right?

Danny: Right. Right, and as far as wanting to offer too much for deals, this is a big thing with me, if you’re tending to one up what you calculate and offer more just to try and get it accepted, the problem lies in not getting enough leads, if you don’t have enough leads coming in, you try to milk everything that comes across your desk, or that you become aware of and try to turn it into deal when a lot of times, when it’s a real deal, you’re going to know it’s a real deal. You won’t have to make it a deal.

Brandon: That’s really, really good, I’m going to make that one of those tweetable topics. For those of you who don’t know, if you go to the BiggerPockets Show Notes for this, it’s BiggerPockets.com/Show18, there’s a little section there called tweetable topics and it’s stuff you can—they’re quotes from the show. You can actually put it on Twitter or Facebook so check out that, again, BiggerPockets.com/Show18. I do want to transition into actually what you’re talking about there, Danny, and that’s marketing and getting leads. That’s a good transition point. How are you finding deals today? What are you doing to get them?

Danny: Okay, that’s top secret. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not. It’s really, I don’t know some people might want to hear the newest hottest technique or something that nobody’s ever heard of, but I’m a simple guy and what has worked for people for decades still works and I focus on finding motivated sellers instead of houses. I try to find people that need to sell houses or want to sell houses, quickly and for cheap and so, to do that, I’ve got a house buying website that performs wonderfully and I’ve spent a lot of time ranking and Google.

That generates a lot of leads for me. On top of that, I do mailings and I’ll do drive for dollars where I, you know, we’ve talked about before, and I do letters and postcards and I sort of prefer postcards over the letters for those and then absentee owner lists. You can get a list of absentee owners from ListSource.com and it’s fairly inexpensive and you can specify, be sure to specify equity percentages because they have a way to sort of—a rough idea of how much equity the people that you’re mailing to have and the house so you don’t want to be mailing to people that just purchased a house a don’t have very much equity because your chances of buying it, you know for what you need to buy it for are pretty slim.

Brandon: What equity percentage do you usually shoot for?

Danny: I shoot for roughly—you know, it’s—it’s really low, I mean 50% or less, or equity so it would be more, so 50% or more equity.

Brandon: Are most people you think, are they like out of area landlords or are they homeowners who are just tired of owning it. What do you, what do you buying from?

Danny: I think whenever I select out of state, there’ not enough of them so grab in more cause I think the people that are out of state and out of area tend to be more motivated for obvious reasons. You know, they’re not near the property so I will target those and then what if I don’t have enough come back. Say the list is only 200, I mean these mailings, you want lists of you know 3,4,500, even a thousand. You know, don’t pull off 50 and mail to them and expect to land a deal. It’s possible but it’s not likely.

Brandon: What kind of conversion rates are you getting? Do you know? Like do you track that? Like how many people are calling you based on how many letters you send out and how many of those actually turn into deals.

Danny: The conversions—this is just a real rough idea because I don’t have that in front of me, but it’s basically, I’m looking at about 2-5%, depending on what I’m sending out. You know, obviously, Yellow Letters get good response rates and a lot of people talk about Yellow Letters and I do like them, but I think you get higher response rates, but I’m sure the quality of the leads is as good. You might get more calls. Some people talk about postcards, whatever that generate a 28% response, like you know return, or response rate, at 20%, I was thinking that’s crazy. You know, how are you getting 20%? Or anything even close to that and I got a hold of one of them finally and I saw what the difference was, they had, you know it’s where they call for a pre-recorded message and it had some kind of thing on there and so people were calling to the pre-recorded message. I’m sure you can—maybe you can convert more people, but I wouldn’t call that the same sort of response. You know, it’s not the same quality.

Josh: When you were sending them, were you doing monthly, bi-weekly, what was your, I guess, mailing frequency?

Danny: I would try to send to the same people on a spacing of about three to four weeks apart and then you know, do postcard letter, postcard kind of thing. Honestly, I get busy with getting deals and working on those that I never really get past much more than three or four in a series. My response rate does go up, surprisingly enough as you get further out, as people get touched more by your message. You know you get, you know I’ve heard seven is the magic number, I’ve never actually made it out to seven before, maybe I should try that. It’s produced enough results to get some deals and it becomes a little bit unnecessary at the time.

Josh: No that’s great.

Brandon: I’ve read some stats from Sharon Barnholdt on the blog. She’s mentioned a couple times about, yeah like, the response rate goes up the more letters you send gets significantly higher. Definitely, there’s some data to back that up so.

Josh: Danny, how big is your team? You’ve got all these deals going on, is it just you and your wife or do you guys have, obviously, I’m assuming, you have contractors and other folks. Is there other people involved?

Danny: Yes. I wanted to laugh when you said team. It’s my wife and myself and she—she these days works half a day a week. That’s doing books and things like that.

Brandon: You have contractors that do all your work for you, you hire everything out?

Danny: Oh definitely, yes, I’m not a handy man.

Brandon: You’re not doing eight houses at a time by yourself.

Danny: No. No. Yeah, it’s contractors all the way. I would never swing a hammer. For one, I would probably smash all of my thumbs, both of them. No, I’ve got 10 thumbs.

Brandon: We had a meeting the other day with some BiggerPockets members from the Seattle area, somebody asked me that question. Is it good for me to learn how to do all this contracting work. I actually said I think it’s better not to do the work. I think that was a hindrance for me, like it’s always been a hindrance for me cause I will fudge the numbers because I know I can go do the work myself. It’s like, oh, I can’t get this deal closed, you know cheap enough, well, that’s alright, I can just go put my own carpet in. Every time, I would do that, especially starting out, I was really bad with that.

Danny: Right, absolutely, that’s—I mean that’s, you know, that’s one of those things people think they can save money by doing that, but the opportunity cost lost is insane. You know you’ve got your head, your concentrating on something, you know, that’s just low paying. It’s not worth your time, really so you figure out what your time is worth and you say what can I hire somebody to do this for? Then most of the stuff that you do, you should be hiring out.

Josh: Now do you guys have your real estate license or do you hire a real estate agent to do your sales for you?

Danny: No we’re completely rogue, no, but, no, we don’t have our licenses and we do, on the selling side, selling retail we do have an awesome real estate agent that list the properties for us.

Brandon: Cool.

Josh: That’s great. It’s interesting you know, it brings me to the question that tends to come up a lot, which is, you know, do you need your license or do you not. A lot of people, a lot of investors you’ll hear them say how—how—how they’re not fond of realtors and it’s just, you need these guys. I mean if you’re not one yourself, you need a realtor. I mean fizz bowing, you know, flips and things like that is just not the optimum way to get the most benefit. You know.

Danny: Absolutely. Right. That get’s—it’s the same thing as doing the work on fixing up the houses yourself. That was. Because my wife was selling the properties when we were doing it fizz bow a long time. Just the amount of time and frustration and energy spent on doing that especially when everybody, seems like every other person will schedule to meet with you at a property and not show up, not call you or anything. You just—you start to get so negative and just your energy is just wiped out from it so. You know, I mean we’re very happy to spend the five to six percent.

Josh: What about staging? Do you guys stage?

Danny: Absolutely, that’s something we started just a couple years ago and it’s made all of the difference in the world. My wife does that as well for us. She went out and did a bunch of shopping and got some things we moved from house to house. We have about three sets, I think of staging furniture. It’s made a huge difference, I mean, before, we were having properties sit on the market and I know the market’s kind of heated up a little bit especially here, and selling has, things have been selling faster, but before we’d have property sit on the market for you know, 30, 60, 90 days even. Now, I think the last, probably the last eight-10 properties, you know that we’ve all staged every one of those has gotten multiple offers within a day or two.

Brandon: Wow. Let’s actually talk about that a little bit, about the changing market because I know a lot of investors are having difficulty, especially the hedge funds that are coming in. I guess, do you have any tips for any people that are in those heated markets on still finding good deals? Is it just motivated sellers?

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. That’s my answer and yeah, the bank owned properties I’ve switched off from chasing those, I think a year and a half two years ago because there’s just so much competition. If you’re new, there’s people that have been in this business for years and years and they go and they spend eight hours a day looking at 10-12 of these properties and making offers on them. They might land one a week or something like that and that’s just too much work. I mean if—and especially if you’re new and you’re doing this part time, how do you expect to do that and that’s not to say that’s everywhere, but you know it’s—if you’re wanting to get started and want to have things happen quickly, and find good deals a lot of people don’t know about, doing the marketing to motivated sellers is key.

If I can mention something about that because some people have a hard time doing that because they feel like they’re taking advantage of people that are in tough situations and that’s just not the case. It’s just not the case. I am happy for people to believe that because it leaves less competition for me because I know it’s not the case. I think most people assume they’re going to be reaching out to people facing foreclosure, that haven’t been foreclosed on yet and the vast majority of the leads we get, they’re not even close to being foreclosed on and a lot of them don’t even owe anything on the property. What it is, is unearned equity. You know, people inheriting properties for the most part and no matter, whatever situation comes up that makes them want to sell that inherited property, that tends to be the scenario that we get a lot, the houses that we buy.

Brandon: [Inaudible] [31:26]

Josh: Interesting. Interesting. Do you do, in your marketing, do you guys do Yellow Page ads or anything like that or had you ever? I was just curious.

Danny: Yes, I did Yellow Page ads for a long time and I always tried to get out of doing them because my cost per lead was much higher for the Yellow Pages, but every time I went to cancel it, the sales person would talk me into getting the ads for the same price so I’d get more ads and paying the same amount though. It didn’t seem to translate to more leads, but I’d always you know, so I started collecting all these ads. You know, I had like three or four ads in the Yellow Pages, but they were free or they convinced me they were and I just took those out I think it was last year. Just last year I took them out.

Brandon: Nice.

Danny: Because the cost per lead was so much higher and I wasn’t getting that many calls from them. To tell you the truth and I haven’t said anything about this until now, the—I’m starting to wonder if maybe I should have them back in because I wasn’t tracking close enough or people weren’t telling me when they would go to the website from the Yellow Pages, so I would have a lot of website leads that appear to be strictly from search that are not. That probably have come from the Yellow Pages. I’ve noticed a dip, not a huge one, but a dip in my leads through my website and I’m thinking it’s because of the—not being in the Yellow Pages.

Brandon: Speaking of your website, do you have any tips for people, you know, setting one up or getting a lead generating website?

Danny: Okay, the website, you want one that will have a form on it that can send you the leads by email. The great thing with websites is you can have the questions on your form do negotiating for you and it’s just amazing to me how well that works because I’ll have questions as far as what their asking price is and further down, I’ve got what’s the least you would take. Almost every single person will reduce that by $5-$20,000, you know, it’s just amazing. You know you’re asking, but then they put the leads in so they do their own negotiating.

Brandon: That’s awesome.

Danny: You have a—like, on my side, they have a simple form on the front so they don’t feel overwhelmed. That’s just the basic information. When they submit that, it takes them to a longer form. I don’t need the longer form so if they don’t submit it’s not a problem, but if they do answer those, it helps me do analysis of the property without having to ask them a million questions on the phone. As far as any—any help or any tips with the website, you know I think the biggest thing is patience. So many people that build it, if you build it they will come thing, it’s not true with websites.

You can’t have a website and expect people to come to it so you’ve got to generate traffic. If you want to rank in the search engines, it takes time. I think so many people try a couple things to try to rank in the search engines, which is SEO. It’s search engine optimization, but they’ll try a couple things and then give up because they don’t see an improvement over even two months. If they had just stuck it out and gone four or five months, you know they start to see the improvement and that’s—I don’t want to be telling too many people about all of this because my competition is—but seriously that’s-that’s really what it is. Don’t be afraid of pay per click.

Brandon: Yeah, like Google ad words and stuff.

Danny: Right, Google ad words, Bing ads, you can set your budget, daily budget where it won’t go over so you can specify how much you want to spend. The big benefit of that is having your ads for your website show up on the first page if you bid the right amount for them. You can see—I think the biggest benefit is seeing what key words people are really using to find you.

Brandon: That’s what I’m curious about, what are people? Are they typing in “how do I sell my house” or what do people look for?

Danny: It’s top secret. No, no, I think it was surprising to me because I thought investors use “do we buy houses” and not “home owners,” but there’s been so much advertising done by different companies and everybody putting up signs everywhere that people actually search for “we buy houses.”

Brandon: Oh, interesting.

Josh: You’re saying that the—the distressed home owners who are looking to get rid of their property potentially, are searching “we buy houses” instead of “I need to sell my damn house” on Google.

Danny: Well, probably the quality lead is searching that, but the majority of people are, that I’m actually getting are searching for “we buy houses.”

Brandon: Interesting.

Danny: They’ve seen the sign or somebody’s told them there’s people that buy houses and they say put—and they may not say “we buy house,” they might say “buy houses” and have some other form of it, but it comes in as representing as you know something like “we buy houses.” Of course, “I like selling my house fast,” and stuff like that, I think that’s the other one that is the key, a key word.

Brandon: Yeah.

Josh: Nice. What about Facebook? Do you use Facebook at all?

Danny: I have a fan page for that, but I don’t use it that much. I plan on using that a little bit more, that’ll help your rankings a lot if you can, you know use—set up a Facebook page for your house buying and link it to your house buying site.

Josh: Alright and what about Facebook? Do you use that?

Danny: Facebook, I use—set up a fan page to link to my house buying website and then have that updated, I’ve been too lazy to ever update the thing, but that could help you with your search engine optimization for your house buying website. I’m not sure you were maybe asking about whether I use that for marketing directly on Facebook for leads, but no I don’t and I probably should, but there’s only so much I can do.

Brandon: Yeah. I’m a big fan of, I don’t do a lot of it, but I’ve done a little bit of Facebook ads for when I’m trying to sell a house. I really like doing that, just put up a picture of the house or a picture of a local thing, like a picture of a popular local restaurant. The last one I did, I said, “Do you want to move away from Aberdeen?” Because Aberdeen is a nearby town and I said, “Do you want to move away from Aberdeen? Buy this house in Montecito.” Montecito is like the nice town so, anyway. I’m a big fan of Facebook I think they’re awesome.

Danny: That’s a great idea.

Brandon: There you go, I have ideas too, look at that Josh.

Danny: Ouch. You guys are crazy.

Josh: Ow. Ouch.

Brandon: Let’s switch gears a little bit. I know we’re kind of getting ready to wrap up here, but I’m curious, what kind of other investing do you do? Do you do just flipping or do you got other avenues.

Danny: No, I have rental properties that I didn’t intend to have.

Brandon: Okay.

Danny: Maybe a couple I did because they were long term tenants and they weren’t requiring any repairs. You know, they’ve been there for 20 years so I buy the house and start getting income. I mean, it was nice to do that, but we don’t, I don’t actively search for rental properties. I do it more for tax reasons, saving on taxes, and we also, our long term sort of, retirement sort of strategy so we’re not just always flipping houses and making chunks of money is owner financing. Owner finance, so sell the properties with owner financing and then that way we don’t have to deal with broken toilets, clogged toilets. You know we even had a tenant one time call us because the shelf in the closet fell and it was just a matter of picking the board putting it back up on the—the thing. We don’t get that, the people pay their property taxes, pay for their own insurance on the properties, all that kind of stuff so.

Brandon: Yeah, we talked about that a lot with Clay Huber on the 16th BiggerPockets Podcast so, definitely a cool strategy, something I want to get more into as well so. What about wholesaling?

Danny: Wholesaling, yes, I do a lot of wholesaling. I plan on doing a whole lot more of that, I really sort of want to switch gears into—to focusing more on that, to free up my time a little bit more and not have to deal with contractors as much. Then you know, the other thing is the reason why I would want to do some more wholesaling is because a lot of people talk about the frustration of dealing with contractors and getting the house fixed up and things like that, but you don’t hear many people talking about frustrations and hassles with selling houses.

We have people, multiple offer situations that within a couple days, which is awesome. It’s great, but then the banks have the problems with the 90 days, you know most of these are FHA loans so you have this 90 day flipping rule where the banks are not wanting, you know they want you to jump through all these hoops and show them how much you paid for it and how much you did in repairs and all of these things and we’ve had problems with things taking so long that the buyers get really antsy. It just creates so many problems and it’s just really frustrating, but so to not have to deal with any of that and fixing up or—and just buying a house and wholesaling is awesome. Especially, because it is not just a $4-$5,000 wholesale thing, you can get $10-$15-$20,000 wholesales. I’d do it often and you know, to be able to make as you would on a flip and all you have to do is sign a contract. I mean which would you rather do?

Brandon: Yeah, so what about, do you have any tips if somebody wants to wholesale a deal to you. I mean what kind of tip do you want to give them, somebody who’s just starting out with wholesaling?

Danny: The tip would be to hustle and to find the deals that other people don’t know about. Obviously, I don’t want to hear about listed properties and things like that I want to hear about a great deal that doesn’t need a whole lot of repair that I can get for dirt cheap obviously. I mean it’s really just a matter of getting enough leads to get great deals to send to people because if you can focus on finding really, really great deals, which everybody just needs to do anyway, you don’t need a whole lot of buyers. You don’t need a thousand person buyer list. You know you have your handful of people that you’re selling everything to and that’s what I do. I only have a small handful of people that buy everything I have so I don’t have to market and push this property very much. Usually, the first or second person wants it, but it’s because I’m leaving enough meat on the bone, you know, I’m leaving enough room for them to make money on the deal to so.

Brandon: Wow. That’s great. That’s great. I was going to ask you a question and it totally disappeared from my mind.

Danny: Okay, while you’re thinking of that I think also with the wholesalers maybe possibly wanting to—tips for them if they want to sell deals to successful investors is don’t immediately send things out on an email blast. I think a lot of the best buyers just ignore those because they know they’re up against a bunch of people mostly newbies and things like that. If you can find the people that you think your top prospects for buying your deals and give them 12 or 24 hours exclusive notice, or right to buy the property, they’re going to head out and go look at that thing right away because they know you’re giving them the first dibs on it.

Brandon: That’s an awesome tip. I—I—I know a lot of businesses do that. The press does that, I mean, it happens in a lot of industries, and I have not heard anyone, specifically, say that they do that. Again, I think that’s fantastic, I think that would get me as a purchaser, quite excited. That said, I did think of my question, which is you came into real estate investing from a career as an engineer and so I don’t quite know if you were—if you started the real estate while you were still working or if you quit and went head long into that. Maybe you could answer that first and then I’ll get to the follow up.

Danny: Okay, yeah, I wish I could say I did, but I did not. We were working part time. I mean as far as just as quitting the job and going into it at first, but so we, my wife and I were still working full time jobs when we got into real estate investing and it was something like about three years, two to three years we were still working full time jobs while we were doing this and then transitioned. I wish I could say I just said okay, I’m making so much money with that I need to quit my job. I actually had to get laid off in order to push myself into doing this full time. Most people don’t know that.

Josh: Nice.

Brandon: You were working, you know for multiple years while—while investing so my question was going to be on financing and so it sounds like what you did was you used your job to finance all your deals.

Danny: No, I didn’t use the job to finance the deals. We’ve always used other people’s money and private lenders and even in the beginning for the first—for awhile, we were actually even partnering with another investor that was putting up the money and we were doing the work and splitting things. We were using his money.

Josh: How did you end up with this guy as a new investor who had zero experience, why would he want to work with you?

Danny: Because we were hustling and had the deals. You know, it’s like so, hey I’ve got this great deal, I need someone to fund it. We worked out the details and made that happen.

Brandon: Yeah. I think that’s a huge, huge point there you made about it. If you have the deal, like the money is going to find you. I hear investors say that a lot, but the hard part is finding the deal, the easy part is the money at that point. If you’re having trouble finding funding for your deal, it’s probably not a deal.

Danny: Right, and you know the hard money, there’s nothing, if the deal is a good enough deal and you’re buying it for cheap enough, getting hard money to do the first couple deals, you know, if it’s your way to get your foot in the door and actually do some deals, it’s not a bad idea. You know, and then you’ve got some experience even so to convince somebody to lend you the money is so much easier because you can show them past experience. Well yeah, with hard money lenders the other good thing about that is a lot of times they can keep you from doing bad deals. If they’re not willing to lend on them, a lot of times they’ll tell you this deal it’s too tight and you know, they’re experienced people. Usually, really experienced investors and so they can keep you out of some trouble too.

Brandon: That’s awesome Danny, I agree completely. I started out with hard money lenders and it’s not always the easiest way the world to do it because they are kind of expensive, but—but yeah, when you’re starting out, if you got to do it, you got to do it, so and a quick shameless plug actually, BiggerPockets has a hard money lender directory and I think it’s pretty great. You can get it at BiggerPockets.com/hardmoneylenders and just click on your state and look for some guys in your area so.

Well, cool, let’s move to an article you wrote a few months ago and it’s actually one of my all time favorite articles on the blog. I refer people to it all the time from the forums. It’s called Nine Reasons That You Couldn’t Find a Buyer For Your Wholesale Deal. I just want to run through those nine reasons real quick with you and see if you can expand on them just a little bit.

Danny: Sure.

Brandon: Reason number one, you can’t find a buyer for your wholesale deal, you priced the deal too high.

Danny: Right, that’s the main one. That’s the usual culprit. You know, if you priced the deal too high because your numbers weren’t right or you had to fudge the numbers to make it to where you could have a higher wholesale fee or any number of things and it’s typically back into what we talked about. Where you’re just not getting enough leads to generate the deals that you need to get to be able to sell them easily. If you are having a lot of trouble selling them, usually it’s because the deal is just priced too high. You know, you’re seeing things, wanting the numbers to come out a certain way so that you could say, “That yes this is a deal, I can do this.” You end up, looking maybe at the comps, the one comp that was $10,000 higher than the other five and said this is what the value is going to be. Just because it was wishful thinking and you know, you just hope that it will so that’s what you assume and you buy the deal for too much and you can’t sell it because you’re pricing it too high.

Brandon: Josh, do you want to take number 2?

Josh: Yeah sure, didn’t have enough buyers on your list, which we kind of covered. Didn’t we.

Danny: Well, sort of, I mean if you, I mean if you don’t have enough buyers, you can’t get the deal in front of enough people that could be one you know, of the biggest reasons as well that you—don’t—can’t find buyers for the wholesale. Certain buyers like certain things so you might have something that most people would turn their nose up to, as far the area, or the level of repairs and things like that, but if you have enough buyers, you’re more likely to have, obviously someone that might be looking for that specific thing so it never hurts to go ahead and build a big buyer’s list.

That brings us to number three, not having the right buyers on your list because like I said, you know having that handful of buyers will buy most of your stuff and so you really just want to find the ones that do buy the most houses, pay cash, and the biggest thing for me is being able to make decisions quickly. Because what you want to do is give them that notice, you know, you’ve got 12 hours or whatever, and if they can tell you within an hour or so, that allows you, if they don’t want it, to move onto the next person and give them time so you want decision makers, you don’t want someone that’s going to wait three days and call and ask you stupid questions about how old the roof is.

Brandon: Yeah.

Danny: To find those people, the best way I found to find these right buyers is to find the ones that are actively buying the bank owned properties and so any realtor can do a search and find the bank owned properties that were bought for cash over the last three to six or whatever months. From getting those addresses you can look at the county records and look and see who bought those and send them a letter and or find some way to get a hold of them and say would you like more deals like this? Do you want more houses at a deep discount and then you’ve got the right buyers because they’ve already shown, they’ve bought a property, they already pulled the trigger, they paid cash for it. They’re going to be good buyers.

Josh: That’s great tip man.

Danny: A lot of times those list you get from the realtor too if it’s in a certain area and you’ve got like, you know, a list of maybe 15 houses and three or four of those were bought from the same company or the same person. That’s who you really want to get a hold of, buying multiple properties.

Brandon: Yeah, definitely.

Josh: Number four was you didn’t approach your buyers correctly, do you want to expand on that one?

Danny: That, you know, one is also—I think that gets into you know, approaching them with exclusive access to the deal instead of shooting out an email that goes out to a thousand people and they know it’s going out to a lot of people so if you’re not approaching the good buyers in a good way to let them know that, you know, they have dibs on it and they should really go and look at this deal. You know, and giving them the right information that they want. You know, as far as what you figure it will resell for, your estimate for the repairs and then a way to get into the property or a way to look at it if you have pictures or video or anything like that.

Brandon: Okay, good. Number five, didn’t handle access to the property correctly.

Danny: Okay with that one, you know if somebody is living in the house, you’re going to have a hard time getting buyers through and so if—you’ve got to take a million pictures or take some video or have some way for your potential buyers to see everything that this house has. Once somebody is willing to commit, you know and you can allow maybe even a contingency, you know, for them, in signing a contract, to have access to and then you schedule to bring the person through. If you can, the best way is if the house is vacant, obviously, it’s a lot easier, if you’re signing with a seller, a private owner because you did motivated seller marketing and it’s a private owner and you’re signing the contract. What I like to do is if it’s vacant is just say look, I’ve got this lock box, do you mind if I put the key in the lock box and give you the code and put it on the front door. This way I can, while we’re lining everything up to close, I can start bringing my contractors by or associates and let them see the house to figure out, you know, the extent of the repairs and things like that and most people are okay with that. You know, if they have valuables in the house, they might not be interested in doing that. It never hurts to ask, and most people will let you.

Josh: Nice. Number six, demanded too much non-refundable earnest money.

Danny: Right, that’s—you know people—you know when you’re acquiring somebody to put up too much money for a deal, especially, I’ve heard of people saying they want $5,000 paid to them and I would never do that because if the deal falls apart for reasons beyond my control, I’ve got to deal with the hassle of getting the money back for this guy and you don’t know if they’re going to cash that and start spending the money, you know, if there’s a title issue or something like that.

Josh: Good.

Brandon: Alright number seven, you didn’t give yourself long enough.

Danny: Right, and you always got to have—you know if you plan on signing a contract, you’ve got to try to get as much time as you can. In all the contracts that I’ve seen and I’ve used, have always said, closing is going to be on or before a certain closing date and so get as much time as you possibly can and then shoot to find the buyer right away and close it as soon as you can, within reason. Sometimes, you know, the sellers want some time to get things out so. You know, but you’ve got to have built in—a little bit more of a safety thing. If you’re under the gun, if you tell somebody just because you’re trying so hard to get a deal and you tell them we’ll close it in four days and you don’t have a buyer or even a likely buyer, you know, that’s going to put you in too much stress and make it very difficult for you to be able to get the deal done.

Josh: Which leads very well to number eight, didn’t market the property hard enough.

Danny: Right and that’s, you know if you don’t have a handful of buyers that are buying everything and you’ve got to market the property, you know just saying, you know, and this gets into a general thing for me with business and everything else in life and it’s something my father’s always talking to me about as far as—we all have these kind of to do lists and whether it’s written or just in your head or whatever and the tendency a lot of times is to just go through and quickly do things to mark it off your lists.

The intention of what you were going to do was to do something right and you’re not doing it right. You’re just doing it and then checking it of your list so the tendency could be, you know, I know I need to market this so I put a Craigslist ad out to sell this house and then you mark it off your list and go to a movie or something. You marketed it, but you didn’t do the job right. You keep—with something like this, you’ve got a house under contract, you’ve committed to buy from a seller, you know, that’s a pretty big deal. If that means staying up until midnight doing you know, Craigslist ads and finding new buyers by calling their marketing and talking to them and all of this other stuff. Even putting together flyers, whatever you have to do. You just have to do it.

Josh: That’s great.

Danny: It get’s easier because you do end up finding the real buyers and just like I do now, it’s just basically call them and I don’t have to market the properties.

Brandon: Nice.

Josh: Okay, last one, number nine, didn’t start pushing it immediately.

Danny: Right and that’s sort of the same. You know, it’s a little bit like the last one, but basically, if you get it under contract, like say Friday evening, you know a lot of times people, “Wow, you know, just thrilled, you know, I just got this deal under contract.” You know mixed with nervousness and everything, but you know, the tendency is to want to go and relax and say well, just Monday or tomorrow is Saturday, I’ll start marketing it. You have to immediately start marketing that, as soon as you get home. You know you have to start figuring it how to do it out and getting it out there. Let people know about it. Don’t wait because those couple of days that you wait could be the difference in having it close on time and not having it blow up in your face and having some sellers very angry with you.

Brandon: Yeah, definitely. Well, very cool. That’s awesome. I really just want to go over that because I thought all nine of those points were really, really, really important.

Danny: Thanks Brandon.

Brandon: Yeah, thank you. Alright, well, let’s kind of get a wrap in this thing up. I know you’ve got a kindle book that I want to give you a minute to just tell people about because I read it and I think it’s awesome so, take a minute and tell us about it.

Danny: Sure. It’s called Flipping Houses Exposed and it’s on Amazon.com. It’s 99 cents, I’m trying to get Amazon to make that free. We’ll see how that goes, hopefully, they will, but right now, 99 cents. It’s practically free, but the book is basically, following my business through for 34 weeks, everything I did to generate leads. During those 34 weeks, I generated 495 leads and the deals that we bought and even share the sort of scope of work for the properties, for the rehabs, and then the selling and then the actual numbers from the deals.

Everything, including the holding costs and the closing cost and the rehab cost. It’s basically just real world investing, I mean it’s not hyped up TV, dramatic, dramasized, dramatisized, I can’t say that word. You would edit that maybe. You know, it just goes through everything and shows you what it’s really like. What I really like about how it came out is that even though we were experienced investors, for the first several months, there wasn’t a deal and I was cranking my marketing back up and that’s what happens when people start.

You know, you start and the marketing has got to build on itself and you start to get more and more leads and then you finally get the deal and things start happening. Then there’s the week where there’s two deals in one week and that’s the way it naturally happens, you know, for people that getting started to realize it’s a numbers game. If you just do enough and keep doing it and don’t give up and get frustrated and stop. It’ll happen for you too.

Brandon: Yeah. Definitely, well definitely, we’re going to put a link to that in the show notes as well that people can go and pick up that book so. Very cool. Alright, before we wrap up we’ve got four questions, the famous four. That we want to ask you.

Josh: Famous four. Yes.

Brandon: Famous four. Alright.

Josh: Alright.

Brandon: Number one, what is your favorite real estate book other than your own?

Danny: Other than mine? Honestly, I even asked my wife. I said, “Do I favorite real estate book? Because they ask these on the podcast about the books.” I honestly don’t have one that comes to mind, as far as general business, and maybe somewhat related to Rich Dad, Poor Dad, or to real estate or maybe Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I got a lot of that book, it’s a pretty easy read, but just the shifting your mindset and In Thinking Like an Investor, I think that’s an awesome book. Also, as it relates, if I can make this kind of into real estate and getting into investing, I just got this book called Mastery, Mastery by Robert Greene.

Brandon: I heard of that.

Danny: I just started reading it. I’m through a couple chapters, but it’s really an awesome book and I see a lot things that would help people getting started and it basically, talks about you know, people doing what they’re inclined to do. You know, you have inclinations to do certain things that just fit you and when you do that, you put your heart and soul into it and you work real hard at it and you can make anything happen. Those are the people that do well in life and are happy and all of that kind of thing so, that’s just an awesome book. You know, it talks a lot about a lot of the masters, Leonardo da Vinci and different people like that. What they went through, what they did, and how they found what they were inclined to do and then just put their heart and soul into it. That’s how they became who they were. It’s a powerful book.

Josh: Nice.

Brandon: Alright, that’s a good real estate book. What about hobbies? I think I saw that you’re a pilot? Is that right?

Brandon: This is your own plane?

Danny: Right.

Brandon: Nice.

Danny: Just hop down and not too long ago, I took my wife down there and we had lunch, had seafood on the coast and then flew back. You know it’s a very freeing thing too because separating yourself from the Earth and being up there, especially, when I’m alone. Just a great way to clear my mind and focus on flying, but I love it. I recommend it for anybody that has any interest in doing it.

Brandon: That’s awesome. I know Brian Burke talked about that in one of the early podcast too, he was a pilot so very cool. I hope to follow in those footsteps sometime. Last question, what do you think sets apart the successful house flippers from those who just can’t seem to get off the ground.

Danny: To me the difference and this comes from reading. I’ve got a lot of interest also in sort of like World War II history and things, especially with regards to the flying and aviation, but being afraid, but doing it anyway. You know its like everybody is afraid to get in the business and take these chances and take these risks and it’s the people that do it anyway. That just decide I need to do this and then they do it. A lot of people screw up. You most likely will and hopefully it’s not a big one. If you’re taking small steps it won’t be a big screw up and you know, progress and then build on it, but we’re all afraid to do it. I think the people that are successful are the ones that were afraid, but did it anyway.

Josh: That’s great.

Danny: Taking baby steps and taking actions, instead of just perpetually learning that a lot of us get stuck in. You know, it’s not like we talked about before, at the beginning I think it was you know, not trying to learn every single step of the way, becoming an expert, sitting in front of your computer, figure out the general overview and start learning the beginning parts and then turn off the computer, get outside, drive around. Talk to people.

Josh: Yeah.

Brandon: That’s awesome.

Josh: Nice. Well Danny, listen man, this has been a really good show with a ton of actionable information. I—it’s going to be hard to digest, I think people are going to have to listen twice. Definitely, want to thank you for your time and for coming on and we certainly appreciate it and of course, our users can also of course find you on the BiggerPockets Blog where you are currently posting weekly so thanks again for being part of the show we appreciate it.

Danny: Thank you Josh. Thank you Brandon.

Brandon: Alright, thanks Danny.

And that was our show with Danny Johnson. That was a great, great, great Podcast. A ton of actionable content and information. If you want to find Danny, you can find him on BiggerPockets, he’s got a profile, we’ll link to it on the show notes. You can also find him on his blog at FlippingJunkie.com and he’s definitely a good guy, so if you’ve got questions, feel free to hit him up, otherwise, thank you so much for listening. This is Show 18. We’re rocking right along with the BiggerPockets Podcast, in fact, so far, we’ve had 220 ratings of the show on iTunes, which is awesome. We’ve averaging actually, very close to 10,000 listens per show now, so, you know, we ask everybody if you are a listener, please, jump on iTunes, and leave us a rating and also, take a minute or two and leave us a review. This takes us a lot of time to put the show together and you know the ratings are definitely appreciated, so please do that.

Otherwise, please, check out our site, BiggerPockets.com if you are not already a member. It’s BiggerPockets.com. It’s an awesome community, a great place to network, find people, make friends, learn, you name it, do deals, so come on board, and join us at BiggerPockets.com. Finally, if you are not presently following us on Facebook or Twitter or Youtube, you can find us at all three at slash BiggerPockets. That would be Facebook.com/BiggerPockets, Youtube.com/BiggerPockets, and Twitter.com/BiggerPockets. Jump in and follow us. We share lots of cool stuff there and actually have some kind of exclusive conversations and questions and surveys and do all sorts of fun things over there so definitely follow us. That’s about it, thanks again for listening to the show, I’m Josh Dorkin, your host, signing off.

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