NAR Finally Faces Competition: Is the Agent “Monopoly” Over? w/Jason Haber and Mauricio Umansky

Henry:

What’s going on everybody? It’s Henry Washington here for this episode of On the Market, and I’m joined by my buddy James Dainard. James, how are you? I’m

James:

Doing good. We going to run point today? I feel like we got graduated.

Henry:

We’re subbing in for Dave today, but tell us what we’re going to talk about

James:

Man. So we have some awesome guests coming on today. We got Jason Marcio. They are working on making some changes to follow up about what we’ve heard about the NAR. There’s been a lot of media over the last three to six months about the antitrust lawsuit, their sexual harassment lawsuits, and the NAR is going through an evolution and there is some headwinds and changes coming their way. And now they have a little bit of competition where they have, they’re starting the American Real Estate of Association, which is going to be another association that will compete with the NAR.

Henry:

There has been a lot of developments with the NAR, this being the most recent one. And the reason this is important is because it could change how agents use the MLS, it could change how investors and homeowners get access to that information. So yes, we aren’t endorsing this as a product, but we want to bring you this information because if something like this comes to pass, it could go right along with changing the way agents use the MLS and changing the way investors and homeowners get access to that information. And so it’s just another piece to this complex puzzle that we’ve been trying to keep you in the loop on.

James:

Alright, well let’s get after it. Let’s bring in Mauricio and Jason, Mauricio Umansky and Jason Haber. Welcome to the podcast. To start the show, can you guys tell us a little bit about what you do in the real estate industry?

Mauricio:

Sure. Jason, I guess maybe I’ll start if you don’t mind. And basically I’ve been in the real estate industry now for 28 years, I think, plus or minus maybe. And I’ve been a real estate agent for all of that time. I have been operated and working mostly in Southern California in Los Angeles as a real estate agent. I was lucky enough to become the number three agent in the country about 10 or 11 years back. And at that time I decided that some of the systems and all of the stuff that I was doing was teachable and repeatable. And I decided to begin and I founded a company called the Agency. The agency is a real estate luxury boutique firm globally. We have 106 offices around the globe in multiple continents, but primarily in the United States. And this is an industry that I have absolutely fallen in love with, that has given back so much to me that I have given back so much to it. And thus the reason why I am so passionate about what’s in the industry. And I have joined forces with Jason Haber in order to start the American Real Estate Association with the hope that we can better the industry and improve it and make it and give back to an industry that I love so much.

Jason:

Yeah, I’ve also worked in the industry for a number of years, about 17 years before that I have a background in government, politics, media and academia and sort of using those skills now much more than I have maybe in the last few years. But after I worked at a number of firms, I had my own firm for a number of years in New York City, which I sold. And I’m an agent at Compass. I’ve been there for a few years. It was only in the last, I don’t know, year or so that I got licensed in the state of Florida where I am now and became a member of the National Association of Realtors. I am one of their most junior members and in New York City, we’re not members of the National Association of Realtors, we’re members of REBNY there. It’s a weird quirk in how this is all organized. And so I was new to this and then in the fall I started the NAR accountability project, which was the leading force advocating for change within NAR and then Mauricio and I, we crossed paths and we had all these amazing synergies together, which brought us to creating the American Real Estate Association.

Henry:

That’s a perfect transition to really, the second question we want to ask you here is, as agents in the space, did you have issues with NAR ahead of the lawsuits against them? And if you could, could you go ahead and just quickly summarize what are those lawsuits? What’s the problem that’s going on here?

Jason:

Yeah, actually, because Mauricio and I both had separate issues, that’s why we attacked this from different angles and different perspectives. When I got involved this fall, it was in the wake of the allegations of rampant sexual harassment, a toxic work environment, and those cultural problems within NAR. And that was why I founded the NAR Accountability project, put together a nationwide grassroots coalition, held a press conference, protest outside their office, put together a four point reform plan. Many of those points ended up being adopted. And as this is evolving in this fall, and I’m hearing from more and more agents and real estate insiders around the country, I’m learning firsthand about the depth and breadth of the problems over there, problems that I was completely unaware of before this fall. Like I said earlier, I wasn’t involved in NAR, I wasn’t active, I wasn’t even a member. And I learned a lot this fall and saw a lot of the problems and pitfalls that they’re having. And then I was experiencing that Mauricio had his own encounters with them as well. That also led us down this path.

Mauricio:

So my encounters are a little bit different and they come from a little bit of a different place, really more from a real estate agent’s perspective. I co-founded what I consider to be a solution for off-market listings for what we call pocket listings. Those are basically listings that do not hit the open multiple listing services. And we created I co-founded with a gentleman by the name of Chris Dyson, a company called the ppls.com, the pocket listing service.com. And soon after we founded that, we grew the company to 20,000 members. And soon after that, the National Association of Realtors passed a law called the Clear Cooperation Policy, which we believed was a law that was directed towards us and maybe some other competitors that were coming out. And it was basically seized us to exist. And so therefore the pls.com created an antitrust Sherman Act lawsuit against National Association of Realtors.

We entered into a lawsuit against them. So we were one of the antitrust lawsuits out there, apart from the commission lawsuits and apart some other stuff that they’re experiencing. This was probably five years ago, four years ago, I’m not a hundred percent sure. But that started giving me some insight into what NAR was doing for us and as a real estate agent, as a realtor, and I am a member of NAR and so is the majority of my company except for the New York area. I started looking at it and really analyzing in terms of what they were doing for real estate agents around the country really, because in theory, the National Association of Realtors or the Association is exactly what it says. It’s an association of realtors and therefore should be advocating, protecting and lobbying our jobs, our industry, all kinds of different things. And through this process, I started to feel that they were not in the best interest and the culture of the business was not the greatest.

As I began to learn, I really didn’t like it. And now with what’s happening with the lawsuits and the judgments against them, the loss of their insurance, the sexual harassment cases, et cetera, et cetera, I just have fear that the country’s going to be without an association and that’s a really dangerous place to be. I don’t want us to be in that situation. So this was not something that I was looking to start or to do or to be super passionate about. This is something that kind of fell into my lap that I felt was a duty of mine to give back to the industry and to be a part of it and to start this thing going just because I love this industry so much. And so I just want to make sure that we’re not without an association. Jason and I look at advocacy work and lobbying in a similar fashion, which is interesting, which is creating that more at the local level versus the federal level, the regional levels.

I think it’s really important for us to advocate for real estate agents and for home buyers and at regional levels, not so much at federal levels. We both believe in the pillar of education to make it the real estate agent, really more of a real estate advisor and to level up and to improve what the real estate agent services are to their consumers because the majority of the consumers, the real estate transaction, the home purchase is probably the most important purchase of their lives, the most important investment of their lives, not only from an investment perspective, but from a lifestyle perspective. It’s their temple, it’s their sanctuary, it’s where they’re going to live. And so for me, it’s super important that that consumer gets well handled and is handled by real estate advisors that are leveling up. I think one of the things that I’d like to advocate for is to make the licensing of real estate agents a little bit more difficult. Right now, it’s way too easy, and so therefore the quality of the agents are not phenomenal. So I’d like to work with the Department of Real Estate to make that just a little harder to enter and to be a part of this industry. There’s a bunch of those different things that we’re interested in.

Henry:

So what I’m hearing is you were both agents in the space and having different issues as it relates to the NAR when you found each other. And so you came together and now you ended up essentially starting a company that would essentially not leave people without a association if it were to all fall apart. Is that what I’m hearing?

Mauricio:

Pretty much, yes. That’s exactly what you’re hearing. And to give an alternative, this is an association that’s been in control of the, it’s the largest association maybe in the world, certainly the largest trade association in the country. It’s been in power and in control and a monopolistic fashion for over a hundred years. It’s archaic. And we have to, I think that competition is good. So even if all we do is succeed at making NAR better and the American Real Estate Association goes away and we don’t succeed in creating that mission accomplished for me again. So I want super clear on that. We just have to make it better.

Henry:

Alright. We have to take a quick break, but stick around more on the American Association of Realtors right after the break.

James:

Welcome back everyone. Henry and I are here with Baio and Jason who are proposing an alternate to the NAR and shaking up the real estate industry. Let’s jump back in.

Henry:

Yeah, that’s positive steps. I know James is an agent and also has a perspective on how he feels about this. So James, what’s your take on all this?

James:

I’ve been a broker now for almost 18 years, and I have never joined na, it was, I remember talking to him originally, it was a very similar perspective to Jason. What Mauricio said is I remember looking at this, I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense to me. When they came in and they pitched it inside of our office, I’m like, there’s an ethical standard that they teach, which I think needs to be taught, especially with new brokers because as brokers, we are responsible, like Mauricio said, for the biggest transaction someone’s ever going to purchase many times. And that needs to be handled with care and duty. But at the same time, it’s that old school approach where it’s like a mafia. They tell you what to do, you have to do it. It’s a blood oath. You are stuck in this. And that’s been my fundamental problem.

They take away innovation from real estate brokers. They want us to do the same thing on repeat. It’s almost like the Xerox model. Eventually it starts going away, not keeping up with technology. And I think it’s a great thing for ethical standards, but in business practices, the narrow-mindedness of the program has really suffocated it. And for innovators like us, we’re a high investment business. We do things creatively, we source off market deals, we work in investors. Working with funding, creative type of closings is not welcomed by them. And that is a huge space in the real estate market now. And I think it’s great that you guys are taking some steps to at least change it, either give us another option or change it. I think one of the biggest issues they have their internal issues, which is the sexual harassment charge, the settlement claims, but part of it too is the bullying of brokers and brokers are slowly leaving and not seeing the benefit. And so when they filed that class action lawsuit against you about the off market, how did that shift your perception in the brokers that you know around? Because I think that’s one of their biggest issues is people think it’s really old school, they don’t want to join it because it’s going to take their business back. Was that your moment of clarity? You were like, wow, this needs to be changed or I need to move on with a new solution?

Mauricio:

Yeah, that’s a great question. And they did not do a lawsuit against us on the antitrust law, just to be clear on that. Okay. We, the PLS filed a lawsuit against them as an antitrust lawsuit because of the clear cooperation policy that was passed. And we believed that that was basically a policy that was passed to stop the PLS and others like us from existing because we were growing and we were gaining momentum very, very fast. Right now, we are in an agreement which is basically a pause agreement with them because there’s so much money and so much judgments that they have lost in the commission dispute, which is a class action lawsuit. And I think that’s what you’re referring to. And so we have just at this point just agreed to pause. I do not have a confidentiality clause or agreement with them, so that’s why I’m able to speak about this.

That’s where I am with them in terms of the PLS. Okay. The pocket listing service. And I just thought that that was really just meant to be an aggregator to make us real estate agents better. I agree with you that I think that the code of ethics is one of the most important things that they do. However, how can a company that has a code of ethics that is teaching a code of ethics have a culture within itself that is so intense in the sexual harassment situation, which we believe hasn’t even began to be completely uncovered. And it’s not only about the sexual harassment. To me, the bigger issue is the hiding of the sexual harassment, the NDAs, the payments that were all approved by the CEO, the board, et cetera, et cetera. And you’ve got this culture that is like that. And yet the biggest thing that we talk about from NAR is the code of ethics. I don’t get that. It is contradictory. I think it’s the most important thing. I think the other issue is that quite honestly, it’s women in the industry, real estate agents, real estate brokers. The real estate industry is primarily women, the majority is women. And I have four daughters and I am an advocat for women’s rights. I want my daughter to be the next president of the United States. I’d love her to be the first woman president of the United States. Let’s go.

Jason:

She may just have to run against my daughter,

James:

Or mine claims it too. She said she’s going to be the president. Amazing.

Jason:

I love it. I love it, I love it.

Mauricio:

But the Association of Realtors, even though, and Jason knows the numbers, I think it’s 65% women in terms of real estate agents in the country. The majority of the leaders in the National Association of Realtor are men by a lot. So we do not have proper diversity. We do not have proper representation. Again, it’s been around forever. It’s a board of over 1200 people on the board. I don’t know how you make decisions when you have 1200 people on a board. It just, how do you move things forward? And so there’s a lot of frustrations. And so I said at the beginning of this thing, if all we do is make them better by creating this, I’m good with that. Okay. I want to be super clear with that. So that’s where I stand.

James:

Yeah, and I think that’s a really important thing to note is the old school mindset of, like you said, 65% of brokers are women out there. And honestly, from our experience, most of our team is women because they do a better job. They have better care and understanding. Are you saying you’re not

Jason:

Empathetic,

James:

James? You know what? That’s why my staff is very empathetic and they’re phenomenal. And I do see that old school approach, especially in the investment space, the women, they get a little bit more pushback than guys naturally. And then NA’s not really helping that approach. And I think it’s a very positive thing. These organizations need that reset into today’s working class and what’s going on today. So Jason, when you guys started talking about this, how did you guys want this to be different? How is this going to be different? How will this be better? How will it help empower everybody who’s a member, not just a specific class?

Jason:

So Mauricio and I started with a core principle which was we’re not looking to replicate. We’re looking to do something entirely different. He hit on one point there, that’s absolutely fascinating. That shouldn’t be glossed over. There are over 1200 members of the board over there, over 1200. Think about that for a second. Apple has eight, IBM has 10. The American Cancer Society has 23. There is no comp organization that has 1200 plus members of a that’s on a board, that’s a Pollock bureau. The organizational itself has become bloated and very bureaucratic. We want to be the opposite of that. We’re proposing something extraordinarily different in that regard. First of all, outside of organizational flow, let’s consider that for over 100 years since Teddy Roosevelt was president, they’ve had virtually a monopolistic grip on this industry in a way that doesn’t exist in any other industry.

Look at the American Medical Association as an example. About 15% of all doctors are members of the American Medical Association. About 17% of all lawyers are members of the American Bar Association In our industry, 99%, 99 of all agents are members of this trade association. There is no other industry which is organized this way and what happens? Innovation lacks no competition. We think all that can be accelerated through our new trade association. The other thing that’s really interesting right now, really interesting is you are right James. You said it earlier. You’ve got these different buckets of issues that are separate, sexual harassment, cultural issues, the loss, the class action lawsuits, the other items that Mauricio talked about. And yes, while most people say those are all separate, we believe that they’re inextricably linked because they speak to the institutional rot that’s happened in an organization that’s lost its way, and we believe that there’s a better way.

Our first event at the American Real Estate Association was held last week, first event, what did we do? Nothing. Mauricio and I shut up and we threw open a conversation to anyone, anyone who wished to speak. And the ideas that came out of that zoom that we held were unbelievable. The energy was infectious, the enthusiasm was off the charts couldn’t have gone any better. The only problem was a lot of people want to join the board and we don’t want to have a thousand person board. So we’re going to have to limit that and we’re going to work on different roles for folks. But the idea was to crowdsource from the brokerage community, what do you need now? What do you need in a trade association? Mauricio and I aren’t going to sit at the top and dictate what this industry needs. We’re going to crowdsource it. We’re going to build the right kind of inclusive community and culture that feeds off of that and that builds off of that. And as a result, the culture in our organization is going to be very different.

Henry:

So I think what you’re talking about in terms of getting other brokers to tell you what’s needed and sourcing what’s needed from the people who actually need those services is and always should have been the right thing to do. But let’s ask what people really want to hear, which is pricing structure going to be different? The price for agents going to be the same. How are we attacking that? Because let’s be real, this is what people really want to know.

Mauricio:

So that’s a great question. The competitive market automatically brings in theory prices down. And so we believe that we can deliver an association at a much lower price in the current existing association and yet still have enough advocacy and enough money to lobby and to do what we need to do. I think at the end of the day, it’s up to us real estate agents and advisors to figure out. And again, running a company with full transparency, we can also make decisions together as to how much do we want to fund it, how deep do we want to go? Particularly if you’re running it properly as a nonprofit organization and you are putting everything back into advocacy, education, lobbying, et cetera, et cetera, then therefore you should be able to just make decisions on how important that lobbying is, right? But clearly, anytime you have a open competitive market, your pricing goes down.

So we do expect the pricing to get better, the pricing to go down. We have no idea at this point, Henry, where the local associations are going to want to work with us. We have no interest in tearing them apart. They exist. The regional associations are great, let’s work with them help. It’s already out there. They can work with multiple people, they can work with us. They don’t have to make decisions. I think that’s our perspective. So hopefully that we’re able to work with all of the local people and just keep things moving and keep things going. And

Jason:

Just one other point, our association is free in 2024, so you can join right now with no cost. Just go to american rea american r e.org and sign up there. And then as we roll out different services in 2025, we’ll then talk about these.

Henry:

Welcome back everybody. James and I are talking with Mauricio and Jason about the American Association of Realtors. So let’s get back to it.

James:

I think what Mauricio touched on is really important. New competition could be popping up as these regulations kind of change. These lawsuits go through for a real estate broker, the paper pushers, the ones that just are going through the motions, there’s a good chance that they’re going to get paid less on transactions in the future. And I do think it’s important for brokers where there should be a difference in what you’re charging. There’s a premium service and there’s a basic service, and the broker out there wants to provide a basic service. Maybe they give it a discounted listing or a discounted buying service because that’s what the buyer wants. They want more affordability. But those brokers that can separate themselves with niches and specialties, that’s where their commissions could even go up from here. That specialty trade is very valued. And I think healthy competition will actually encourage that because as a broker, if I’m just putting a sign in the yard and selling a house and someone just wants a discount and listing, then they’ll get what they pay for.

And that’s okay. That’s the transaction they want. But if they need that special service where they need handholding, whether it’s an investor, a first time home buyer that really needs to understand that process, that’s where brokers might, the concern of their commissions getting cut, just earn your commissions and it’s not an issue. And so I think that it’s a good thing the more competition things come to market and makes people improve and separate services. And at the end of the day, it can just help the consumer. The consumer can have options, affordable or better service.

Mauricio:

I agree with that a hundred percent James. And you can see what that looks like today. I mean, there were companies that started like purple bricks. I’ll pick on them since they’re no longer in the country anymore. That way I’m not picking on anybody that actually exists, but that was a discount broker. And I mean, I’ve gone up against them multiple times in a negotiation and you get what you pay for. It’s that simple. But the consumer should have the right to pick what they want. If they want to go to a knee doctor that’s going to fix their knee at a discount or if they want to go to a knee doctor that’s going to fix their knee differently, it’s up to them. And it’s the same thing by the same token, from a perspective of real estate agents, if you make licensing a little bit more difficult, despite the fact that you’re going to, that we are going to suffer from discounted commissions.

There’s no question about that, that that’s part of the future of what’s happening in my opinion. Unfortunately, because, and I actually believe, here’s what I believe I’m going to say this. If you make licensing a little bit more difficult, if you improve the quality of the real estate agent and you really become a real estate advisor, we will earn our commissions, and commissions will start going up. We will also have less real estate agents in the country, which will allow the existing real estate agents to do more work, to do more volume, to do more transactions, and to have less competition. So all of that makes sense and works. And still, despite the fact that we are suffering and allowing the consumer to make decisions as to what a commission should be paid, we will earn our commissions. And we are still protecting the real estate agent by allowing us by making licensing just a little bit more difficult, continued education a little bit more important, leveling us up and making us better so that we deliver a better service to our consumers and we become worth what we are charging.

Jason:

And that’s a great point. And you guys may know this, the average agent in 1978 for email, social media, the internet, the average agent did about 12 deals a year in 1978. Last year, 2023, the average agent did a little under eight deals a year. All the efficiencies, all technology that we have, agents are doing less transactions than they did in the seventies. Do you know why? Because there’s so many more of them today, and there’s too many now. We don’t believe that more is better. We believe that better is better. Now I understand, and this certain trade association when they get fees because of how many members there are, that it’s better for them to have more agents. We just don’t believe in that model. We think it’s bad for the consumer and bad for the industry, and that’s why we’re advocating for these changes.

Henry:

That is the happiest thing. I think I’ve heard you guys say this whole show because I have always agreed that the bar seems to be a little too low. There shouldn’t be more agents than there are houses for sale. And I think I will be the first one to tell you that a good agent is worth their weight in gold. My agent who represents me has made me a ton of money and saved me a ton of money, and it’s truly necessary. But what makes my agent special is not just that he has the education of an agent, but he has the education of an investor. And I think there needs to be more, I guess what you could say is more investor type content involved. And when you’re learning how to be an agent, you should learn what cash on cash return is and what capitalization rates are and all of these things that are important to investors, they’re important to normal home buyers as well sometimes because not just you’re buying a look and feel, but this is an investment even if they’re not seeing it as an investment. So I love raising the bar for agents. And then, yeah, you raise the bar and then you get paid for the service that you provide. That’s like any other trade in America. That’s what it should be. So all of that makes me happy,

Mauricio:

Henry. It’s the saddest thing right now with technology, with the use of technology real estate agents today, all they have to do is when they’re filling out a purchase agreement for their client, they literally just click on the boxes and just click the blanks. But the agents have no idea what, they’ve never read the purchase contract. They have no idea what the purchase contract says. They have no idea what a cap return is. They have no idea how to, I mean, it’s mind boggling how easy it’s become to fill out these forms, but they have no idea what they’re filling out. And so that part of education is so critical to make us better and to deliver a service that is worth the money. And so that we start having these discussions about commission compression and discounts, but rather we start having these discussions of my real estate agent, as you said, saving me money, advising me, correct, making me money. If we’re making somebody money, you’re going to be thrilled to pay us. I mean, I make you a million dollars. You’re going to be thrilled to pay 30,000 bucks. Okay, no problem.

Henry:

Right? For the record, Mauricio, if you want to make me a million dollars, I’ll cut you a $30,000 check today. There

Mauricio:

You go.

Henry:

One quick question before we get out of here. Now, obviously the NAR is going through some troubles, but I just want to know, what’s your thought process around? Do you expect some sort of, I don’t want to use the word retaliation, but if you’re coming into a market where they’ve had the lion’s grip on it for decades and you are offering a solution that’s completely different, do you expect any pushback? And how are you preparing for that?

Jason:

We’re innovators. We’re disruptors, and we’re tough when we have to be. But if we had come to you guys a year ago, a year ago and said, we want to start a new trade association, you would’ve said You’re crazy and you’re wasting your time. And today you just say, we’re crazy. It definitely, listen, this is a big challenge, but we’re up for it and we’re going to shoot our shot, play our game. And we’re not worried so much about them.

Mauricio:

Well, I just hope that the retaliation from them is not a retaliation and trying to pass anti-competitive laws or stuff that makes it more difficult for real estate agents to make decisions. But I just hope that the retaliation from them is in improving NAR and making things better. They’ve got a control of everybody. They have an opportunity to make things better. They have an opportunity to make their real estate agents that are already members happier and they’ve got every opportunity to win. It’s David versus Goliath. And as I said, if they win by being better, I am all in with that. I have no problem with that. I would love that. But it needs to improve. It needs to be better. If they retaliate through lawsuits or through anti-competitive stuff, that’s just going to make it even worse for them. I really hope that that is not the action that they take because that would just be part for the course and what they’ve been doing for a hundred years. It’s now time to change courses, be better, be competitive, go win, go win the game. I would love for them to go win the game. I want to be super clear. I don’t need to win this game. I win this game by making our association better, whether it’s the American Real Estate Association, whether it’s the National Association of Realtors or whether it’s both. I just want the industry to be better. And

James:

You guys, I want to give you guys a big thank you because as a broker, I’ve always actually explored joining nar. I do believe in that fundamental principle that everyone should be working together, keeping everybody on an ethical standard. It’s really important in our broker business, and I think there has been a lot of ethics that have kind of fallen by the wayside over the last three years with the interest rates as lows. They are. And there needs to be a change. So sometimes, even if it doesn’t go through all the way, which I hope it does for you guys, but at the same time a change is a good thing. And a change could actually really help any association because you can get brokers that are totally anti against associations actually on board. And a lot of those brokers are the ones doing business. And people that do business give the best feedback because they’re the most active players in the market. And so I’m rooting for you guys. I hope we see some change. Thank you. And the landscape change, it’s been about time. We got to get out of this nineties real estate vibe.

Henry:

Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing what you guys are cooking up. That’s

Mauricio:

Awesome being here. Thanks so much. Thank you guys. We really appreciate it.

Henry:

Alright, well that was Mauricio and Jason from the American Association of Realtors, and I think that was a fun conversation because obviously I think we both can’t agree there does need to be some change in how people become agents and obviously how agents are being paid. And we still want to make sure that things are done in a way that protect the consumer because it is a challenging process to go through buying and selling a home. What benefit do you see for both agents and the consumers out there if something like this big changes?

James:

Yeah, it was a great conversation because what they say, if time changes and you don’t change with them, you get left behind. And I kind of feel like the broker community’s not really evolving with what’s going on in today’s business practices. I think anytime that you can raise an ethical standard and then also enhance someone’s ability to increase their business with innovation, whether it’s having a nationwide MLS or different ways that you can do your business, that’s just going to naturally help the consumer, the industry, and the people that work in it. And so change is good. And I think what these guys are trying to do, if anything, who knows if this is even going to go through. It could just get the conversation going to make it to where real estate is in a lot different position and a lot better position in the next five years.

And we’ll see where this goes. I mean, this is a new venture. People do like they like to shake the branches and then sometimes nothing falls too. And so we have to see where it is. They got a long road ahead of, I don’t envy it. Trying to battle it out with the NAR. That’s a gorilla that you might have some problems with. I know according to the New York Times article that they’re in the process of raising funds right now or they’ve been self-funding this. But when it goes to that next level of fighting it out and slugging it out, that costs money. And we’ll have to see how they crowdfund this and whether it moves to that next phase in the evolution.

Henry:

Yeah, crowdfund is one way to put it because they got to come up with between 50 and a hundred million dollars from investors. So if this thing gets legs, they’re going to need that money.

James:

Yeah, maybe they take a hard money loan out. 12% interest.

Henry:

Alright guys, thank you for listening and we’ll hope you’ll join us next time on the Market.

Dave:

On The Market was created by me, Dave Meyer and Kaylin Bennett. The show is produced by Kaylin Bennett, with editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting is by Calico content and we want to extend a big thank you to everyone at BiggerPockets for making this show possible.