The Points Guy’s Travel Hacking Tips to Fly for FREE in 2025

Mindy Jensen:
Are you traveling for free or are you leaving money on the table? In today’s episode, we are joined by Brian Kelly, the points guy and the ultimate authority on point hacking to make sure you are traveling for $0 this year. Let’s find out if you’re missing out. And just for fun, I was on a plane the other day, I saw the Points guy right there on the side of the plane. I was so excited. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my finally starting to earn credit cards, rewards points, co-host Scott Trench.

Scott Trench:
Thanks Mindy. I’m really looking forward to redeeming myself with this podcast here. BiggerPockets as a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You’re in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you’re starting or how bad you’ve been with credit card point usage like me with 600, I think it’s 750,000 to a million points that have gone unused for 10 years despite doing this for a living. Alright, with that Brian, the points guy, we are super excited to have you on BiggerPockets money today. Can you teach us and me a little bit about this subject today?

Brian Kelly:
Well first of all, this is now an intervention because you’re what I call a points hoarder, so this is a alert to everyone who does like you should use your points. It is financial malpractice to horde points because they lose value over time, but that’s a more advanced topic. But no, I’m super excited to share today everyone should be playing the Points game even if you don’t want to travel, the industry has evolved so much, it’s ultra lucrative, so if you’re not paying attention to points, hear me clearly, you are throwing cash in a trash can, so hopefully this episode will help you get on the right track.

Scott Trench:
Well, let’s start, what’s a better place to start, Brian? Should we start with if you have amassed a bunch of points because you signed up for one of these things 10 years ago after talking to some superstar expert on travel rewards and you never did anything with them, how do you begin using ’em? Or should we start with what’s a baseline strategy for someone starting from zero, which is probably more common?

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, well let’s hook people in because I bet a lot of your listeners have a lot of points and the answer’s really easy. So over the last four years there has been a proliferation of technology, these paid tools which will actually tell you exactly how to use your points yourself. So I highly recommend there’s an app called Point Me, point me. It’s basically like the Google flights for points. You can tell it what points you have, you can put in where you want to go and it’ll tell you how to use the points you have to get there. So simply put, you no longer have to go to 20 different airline websites and be an expert like me to get the most bang for your point, there’s another tool called Seats Arrow that will actually scan airline programs for up to a year and to get the most value out of your points these days, it’s being flexible and choosing to fly when the best seats are available. So seats Arrow will let you look at a year by airline and you can sort by the cheapest tickets or by route and plan your vacation around when the best availability is.

Scott Trench:
You said you can figure out where you want it to take you, where you want to go. I’m paraphrasing here. Do you mean that literally or figuratively, should this be used on travel almost always? Is that the general guidance?

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, and I guess the general guidance is if you have transferable points like Amex membership rewards, chase Ultimate Rewards and you have a credit card that certain credit cards will allow you to transfer points to partners and generally that is where you’re going to get the most value. Most people don’t realize that and when they go on and just search to redeem for any flight, the credit card company is going to give you one to one and a half cents per point. But when you learn how to transfer to airlines, I’ll just give an example, 50,000 Chase points is about a $500 gift card to wherever you want. Depending on your credit card it might be $625 towards booking, so you might be able to fly coach to Europe, but you could transfer those 50,000 points to Air France and fly business class to Europe. So that’s where the real vet, that’s when I hope I get people’s interest perked up, especially if you like flying in the front of the plane, transferring your points is where the excitement comes in because it’s not pegged to the cost of the ticket and in a perverse way, the more expensive the ticket is when you can get those points tickets. That’s sort of expert mode and that’s why the people in this industry hate when I teach other people how to do it, it makes it harder for them, but hey, that’s my job.

Scott Trench:
Yeah, it just seems like vacation is so much better when it’s not being paid for with cash.

Brian Kelly:
Let the airlines and credit card companies pay for your trip so that you can at least your airline, your flights and hotels so you can spend the money on things that you love the most. And that’s why points are a financial tool. They are a currency and they’re not taxable, so you can get banks to give you free points that you will not be taxed on. You can be smart about how you spend your money and what I love about credit, as I’m sure you’ve talked about many times on the show is when you actually pay your bills off in full every month your credit score goes up. So winning at points is like winning at life because not only can you get the credit card companies and the airlines to fund your trips, but your credit score goes up as long as you’re playing by the rules, like paying your bills off in full every month to avoid high interest. If you are going to have huge credit card bills, I do not recommend playing the Points game. You may want to get a 0% balance transfer card, but yeah, it’s all about the points.

Scott Trench:
So is it as simple if there’s one takeaway from this, if you have a ton of points go to point me and start poking around and the answers for how to travel using those points most effectively will present themselves or what else?

Brian Kelly:
Exactly. Yeah, so I mean well point me just one and if you have an American Express card, if you go to point.me/amex, the tool is free and you you’ll put in New York to Miami or New York to LA, wherever you live and it’ll show you in real time availability. Hey, if you book this through the airline, it’s going to cost you 500 bucks, 50,000 points, but here’s how you transfer for 20,000. So it does all of the math and it searches all of the different options for you. So that’s why having this technology now can make anyone off the street become an expert almost immediately.

Scott Trench:
So you’re not in the first role position of having hundreds of thousands of points that you should have used years ago because they’ve lost value to inflation. It’s been terrible investment relatively speaking for this and you got to get in your game with that, but you’re starting over from scratch or you’re trying to advance your game. How do we kind of basically frame the opportunity with credit card points for someone getting into it and then finding ways to travel for free?

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, there’s three main flavors of rewards cards. Number one is cash back. Pretty simple. You’re generally going to get anywhere from one to 2% cash back if you’re going to get a cashback card today, Citi double cash is sort of like the standard 2% back, no annual fee as long as you pay your bill. So you want to look for 2% back. That’s pretty good. You can get a little bit higher than that with some specialty cards if you have a brokerage account with Bank of America et cetera. The second is the co-brand cards, that’s airline cards, hotel cards they offer. The currency you get is that airline.
The real value in these cards though is perks, free, check bags, priority boarding, lounge access, elite status. The third and best type of credit card, in my opinion, and I think most points experts are the transferable points. Credit cards, so these are the bank currencies you don’t earn with United Airlines, you earn Chase Ultimate rewards points and the transferable points. Currencies are amazing because instead of earning one singular airline mile, you can earn one or more credit card points that can be transferred to 30 airlines. So you dramatically increase the utility of your points by having a ton more options because the downside of getting just airline or hotel points is if you’re accruing American Airlines miles on their co-brand, but say you want to go on your honeymoon to Dubai and you want to fly Emirates, you can’t. Once you have an American airline, you can’t transfer out, they’re transferable. You are in bed with that airline and a lot of the airlines have been naughty and continuing to devalue their program. So when you have it with the bank, it’s a much more valuable currency. The trade-off is that you don’t get as many perks with that airline. You’re not going to get free check bags with the bank credit card. So everything is just a calculation.
The real goal is you want to get big signup bonuses for a new credit card and you want to get credit cards that offer category bonuses, so that’s on everyday spend. The Amex Gold card for example, offers four points per dollar spent on dining and groceries, which are huge categories for most people. The built credit card is a transferable card that gives you points on rent with no fees. So if you are a renter, there is no reason not to get the built rewards card. Even if your landlord takes a check, you can pay with your built credit card, they get their direct deposit or check and you earn points for free with no annual fee.

Scott Trench:
Does the bill card, if you recommend the bill card to your tenants, do you get a little spiff as a landlord?

Brian Kelly:
I think they have a program, especially with the big buildings. I mean the big residential companies are investors in the company, so I’m sure that that’s how they’re getting all their new credit card members. But even if your landlord is just like a small landlord that you send a check to, you can still have them send a check or direct deposit, earn the points. So most people are like, well built seems too good to be true. It’s not and the points are extraordinarily valuable. You can transfer them to United Hyatt at the Points Guy, we rank all the points currencies out there and built points and Chase points are the most valuable and that’s a no annual fee card. So the goal is to look at every dollar you spend your rent, which is most people’s biggest monthly purchase. You want to be getting points for that and not paying anything. Your dining, your Ubers, your travel, the Chase Sapphire Reserves, another great one. Triple points on travel and dining, but travel includes Uber, public transportation, parking tolls, et cetera. So the goal is you want a big signup bonus and then you want to get a card or two that rewards you bonuses where you spend the most money.

Mindy Jensen:
We have to take a quick ad break, but while we are away, dear listeners, if you’re not already doing so, please follow us on Instagram and Facebook on both platforms. We are BiggerPockets money, all one word.

Scott Trench:
Alright, let’s jump back in with the Points guy. It took me 12 years of spending on that across rental properties and personal to rack up all of those.

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, I mean that’s a lot of great trips. You could fly numerous times, round trip business class to Europe to Asia, you’ve got a lot of possibilities there. Now just to answer your question, chase points are more valuable because if you have the Sapphire Reserve, they give you one and a half cents per point base level on all travel basically whether you put hotels or flights through them, Amex is only 1 cent. So Chase points are more valuable because base redemption level and then also is just more valuable built at 1.25 cents so there’s base levels of redemption and then you can transfer them to partners and get many more 5 cents per point in value potentially.

Scott Trench:
I got to say maybe 10 years ago, seven, 10 years ago, I heard that the Chase Sapphire preferred card was just like a great all arounder credit card if you weren’t sure what to do at that point, I don’t know if that’s currently the case, but I’ve just used that, which is how they got me. Of course from the credit card company, should I change over the Chase Sapphire Preferred card has a lower annual fee than the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, but because I have so many points, if I plan to redeem ’em, should I upgrade to that card?

Brian Kelly:
So the Chase Sapphire preferred today, you only get 0.25 cents per point that base level, but if you had a reserve card it would be one and a half, so you can still transfer the points either card and I think you’ll get more value transferring to Hyatt and to the airlines, but off the bat you would be getting thousands more in value by having a reserve if you redeemed it for travel through Chase. Now here’s the trick and this is what people need to know. So if it’s been more than four years since you’ve had a Sapphire signup bonus, you’d actually be eligible to get the Sapphire Reserve card as a new card and get the 60,000 point signup bonus, but there’s a trick to it. What you need to do is downgrade your Sapphire Preferred to a Chase Freedom Unlimited card. That’s going to be a no annual fee card with one and a half points on every dollar spent and then you apply new for Chase Sapphire Reserve, get the 60,000 points and then all of your points become Sapphire Reserve points. So there’s nuance. If you were to call Chase today, they would let you upgrade but give you zero points. But knowing the trick of, because you can’t apply for a reserve if you have a preferred, but you can downgrade Preferred to a Freedom which is a separate product and then apply Fresh to get that 60,000 points, which are worth $900 just right there by applying new versus upgrading.

Scott Trench:
Why would you say Chase is even more valuable than Amex, for example, for their points? Because you rank that the top, and by the way, I’m lucky I have the 729,293 Chase Ultimate rewards points.

Brian Kelly:
They’re very valuable. Those 700,000 points, if you have a Chase Sapphire reserve card, you could redeem those for over $10,000 in travel and I could teach you how to get even more value than that. You could probably get $20,000 worth when you start transferring to book business and first class flights through their partners like Air France, air Canada.

Scott Trench:
That’s super valuable. On an unrelated note, Mindy, I’m going to need you to ask the next 10 minutes worth of questions here

Mindy Jensen:
While you call up Chase. Sure. Well, I have a lot of questions, a bunch that we have kind of touched on but not really touched on. Brian, you just said that this one has a lower annual fee or Scott did. How do you evaluate annual fees for cards because some of them are quite eyeopening if you haven’t been involved in this before. I got one card that was like, it’s a $600 annual fee. Wow. Instantly I would say no, but then if you dive a little deeper, you see that you get $300 instant credit on travel and all these other things, how do you evaluate the annual fee?

Brian Kelly:
In my book How to Win a Travel, I have a whole chapter about you need to evaluate the three sides of the coin are the earning of points. Generally cards with higher annual fees offer richer rates of return on the card. So what you want to do is a quick valuation of, okay, so for example, the Chase, that Fire Reserve has that $550 annual fee, but you’re earning three x points on all travel and dining versus two and that might seem nominal to you, but if you spend 10,000 a year on travel and dining, it’s 20,000 points versus 30. Those extra 10,000 chase points are worth $150 right there indifference. So then when you add that 150, you’ll earn more in points just from that one group of spend plus the $300 you get a year in travel rebates, you’re now at $450 in value from getting that 550 card.
So the Sapphire preferred is $95. So you’ve closed the gap right there off the bat, plus that Sapphire Reserve gets you into the stunningly beautiful Chase Sapphire lounges that are now expanding across the country. So that’s what I want people to do. The math is how much more in points will you earn? How much more of those points more valuable when you redeem? Because Sapphire Reserve is one and a half cents versus one and a quarter and that starts to add up very quickly. And then the third side of the coin is perks. So by having a Sapphire Reserve card, you actually get a ton of different perks like that lounge access, which if you live in Boston, LaGuardia, wherever there are these Sapphire lounges, you might be using them once a month and getting a $50 meal that you would’ve had to buy in the airport.
So then you start adding in all the perks and the really premium credit cards. They have so many perks people don’t realize like purchase protection when you have one of those premium credit cards, something goes wrong with the credit an issue, the teams are much more enabled to handle disputes. They’ll take charges off your credit card or even flight delays in cancellations. This is a perk most people don’t know about, but when you book the flights with your credit card, a Sapphire Reserve for example, if your flight’s delayed and you need to spend a night in a hotel, you’re going to spend an hour in line trying to get a Motel six from the airline. They may or may not give it to you. Anyone with the Chase Up Fire Reserve knows, oh, I booked this with my reserve. Chase will reimburse $500 per person on your reservation in reasonable fees. So you can book yourself in a beautiful suite at the Westin at the airport and know that your credit card company is going to reimburse you. The airlines these days are really cheap, so the credit card companies now have all these perks that make that 550 all of a sudden that’s a no brainer. When you know you’re protected, you can go to the lounge, you’re getting more points, you’re redeeming more points, and so frankly cheap is expensive. People are losing sight over the value they could be getting.

Scott Trench:
The piece that I can redeem my points for, what is that 15% more a buck 50 instead of a buck 25 on there. That takes the value of my points, which you said we’re somewhere in the ballpark of $10,000 if I’m reasonably intelligent about it to 1150. So at least in the year I plan to redeem a bunch of points that Chase Sapphire Reserve makes a lot of sense just for that alone before you get to the other benefits you talked about,

Brian Kelly:
Absolutely you would make up the annual fee difference for several years just right there just in how much more valuable they make the points.

Scott Trench:
This is not me, I’m learning this on the spot. I did not know this beforehand. We don’t have any financial affiliation with Chase or any of these things. This just happens to be my situation. Anyone listening,

Mindy Jensen:
I want to know what Brian’s wallet looks like right now. Brian, what’s in your wallet? I don’t remember what ad that is.

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, that’s Capital One I think. And funny enough, so my goal in life is to earn more than one point per dollar on every purchase. So I actually have the Capital One Venture X is a competitor to the Chase Sapphire Reserve, but you earn two x on everything. So that’s the card I use when I’m at the vet. There’s no credit card out there that gives four x points on vets or even online shopping. I pay a contractor to do something in my house, go shop at a store that goes on the two x, so everything I earn minimum two XI have the built credit card, I do pay rent and that gets me up to a hundred thousand points a year just on paying rent, which I had to do anyway. And then Amex Gold, so a lot of people get the Amex Platinum, which is good for lounge access and perks, but you only earn one point per dollar on most purchases.
It’s five x on airfare, so I will put my airfare on an Amex platinum for five x, but the Amex Gold card, you get four x on dining and groceries and I’ve got two kids, so groceries includes Instacart and grocery shopping. So I want people to look at all the major categories in which they spend money. There are certain credit cards for pharmacies streaming cell phone, and as a small business owner, I do a lot of Google advertising, Google Facebook advertising, so for anyone out there who does that, the Amex business Gold gives four points per dollar on internet advertising, which I know a lot of small businesses that spend a lot because my company reimburses me for that spend and it’s up to $150,000 a year, so I get 600,000 valuable Amex points for using that business goal card. So also small business credit cards are a huge way to unlock even more points.

Mindy Jensen:
Okay, you are now touching on the reason that I have a Capital One Venture X and a Hyatt card and a Southwest card and that’s it because I can’t keep track of all of this, so when every once in a while I’ll just ask my husband, which card do you want me to use this month? And he’ll say, use this one or use that one. It sounds like that My Venture X card and I’m so thankful because Denver is my home airport and the Capital One Venture X card allows you into that lounge and there’s another one in a different concourse, but it’s a really great lounge. So for that I would say if anybody’s listening and if you travel a lot or even if you just travel a little bit, find out what lounge in your area and use that because not all cards are the same. I have a Venture X, which I guess is the highest level of Capital One venture, whatevers and there’s other venture levels. I will jump the line to get into the lounge because I have a quote better card and I feel kind of bad about that except my kids are sitting there and they’re hungry and they’re like, can we please just get in the lounge? And I’m like, oh, we just jumped in front of everybody, but I still feel a little bit bad.

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, the normal venture card I think is $95, but the Venture X is 3 95, but it comes with a $300 credit, so there’s really no reason not to get the Venture X in my opinion. Even if you visit one lounge a year plus all the other perks are so much higher. I think for you, if you like Hyatt and Southwest Points, I would recommend to you to get a Sapphire card because you could be earning three x on travel and dining and you can transfer one-to-one to Southwest and Hyatt so it wouldn’t make sense for you to use a Hyatt unless you’re trying to get Hyatt status or Southwest Airline status. You’d want to get Chase points instead so you can transfer to either of those plus 10 other really valuable partners,

Scott Trench:
But that also I think synergizes really well. If you can pick a favorite airline and a favorite hotel chain, yes you want to take that trip to Dubai or whatever and use an airline, but that’s not probably most people are going to get the maximum benefit I think from using something like Chase that is universally applicable and one of these big hotel chains or airlines. Do you have a recommendation for where to start if you don’t really know and you’re not really new to figuring that out about how to, what are some good choices you won’t regret?

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, if you fly Delta for example, I would say instead of you can get a Delta credit card that gives you free check bags, all the perks, right? The airline cards are good just for perks, but don’t spend all your money on them. You don’t want to get one delta mile when you could have had one Amex point because an Amex point transfers to Delta plus 30 other options. So by choosing to accrue one piece when you could have a much more valuable point, that’s where people go wrong. They say, I fly Delta, I’m going to get a Delta card. Well, you can fly Delta, it’s a great airline, but get more valuable points and a points currency that transfers to Delta plus a million other options. I’d also say you could have a Sapphire reserve and still fly Delta because if you have a Chase Sapphire reserve, those points you can redeem on buying any Delta flight in the world for one and a half cents a piece.
In general, delta miles are worth about 1 cent a piece, so even if you want redeem for Delta flights, you could still use your Sapphire points of which you’re getting three on travel and dining and let’s do the math there at three points per dollar on travel and dining and they’re worth one and a half cents each. You’re getting a 4.5% return per dollar spent in those categories towards Delta. Whereas if you got one delta mile that’s worth 1 cent each, you’re getting 1% by spending on a Delta co-brand. So you could get almost five x more value by spending on a Chase Sapphire and then redeeming on Delta than if you got one delta mile,

Scott Trench:
You’re on your path to fire and you’re giving your expenses low. What credit card is best for you if you don’t have high spending and don’t want to shell out a thousand plus on three ultimate credit cards. We’ll find out when we’re back.

Mindy Jensen:
Thanks for sticking with us.

Scott Trench:
Let me ask a more advanced layer question to this because if I have a favorite airline and I fly there a lot and I get status that synergizes for BiggerPockets and probably many people listening, you travel for work, maybe it’s three times a year, maybe it’s five times a year. For me it’s 10 to 20 times a year on that, right? So my point something that synergizes with Southwest is much more valuable and I imagine that if I pick one hotel chain, which I have not been super good about that, that will also start to begin synergizing. So how do I make that decision about, hey, if I’m going to travel for work, I should always go with this hotel chain or this airline because it will give me the most flexibility or most optionality later. Do you have any advice for somebody that’s kind of thinking through how do I reset that in 2025

Brian Kelly:
In general elite status? Lemme just tell you, when I started the point sky in 2010 in general Delta was upgrading 80% of the first class cabin was free elite upgrades. It was crazy. Even if you had low mid-tier status, you’re getting free upgrades. So I would do whatever it took to get status, I could calculate well, flying first class for free was a huge value. Fast forward 15 years in 2025 airlines now people pay 80% of those first class cabins paid off the bat, so only 20% are going to those upgrades, which means you’re really only getting upgraded if you’re a top tier passenger. What I tell people is that, yeah, if you’re an old top tier passenger and you’re getting great customer service and you’re getting real tangible perks like getting rebooked when there’s a storm and you’re the last one, you get that one spot left to go home and you see that value all the time.
What’s been happening is people who have mid-tier status are not seeing those perks anymore. So you’re being sold the promise of goods and now the airlines are now saying, well, you have to spend all your money on our co-brand to get the status. My push to everyone is look hard and deep and say, how much did that status get me in real value this past year? If you’re still getting upgrades and they’re treating you like a king, by all means it might make sense to forego getting the more valuable points to get the perks that come with status and spending for it. But in many cases now people are realizing I’m on this hamster wheel to get elite status. What am I getting? I could just get the airline co-branded card, which gets me priority boarding free check bags and the airlines. Now I’m not going to get the upgrade anyway, so that’s what I want people and in the book I go through the how to assess where to spend your money. You can fly on an airline, but just make sure that loyalty goes both ways. That if you’re going to give them all your spend on all your credit cards, you better be getting more value than the points that you’re losing by not spending on a better card. So I want people to understand the trade-off that they make by spending on an airline card

Scott Trench:
Even at the next level, but that’s an awesome answer. You’re saying don’t be loyal to Southwest or to ignited unless you’re really going to be fly in dozen plus times a year or more on that airline because you’re not going to get the benefits anymore of doing that. Just shop around the best price and use the best transfer on that and rack up all the points in these categories and figure out how to use them the best. Maybe get the one airline credit card and spend the minimum

Brian Kelly:
And people are blown up. I want to empower people to earn so many points that instead of flying blindly loyal, let’s say with Delta and then praying and hoping for an upgrade, biting your teeth, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn’t. You’re on an upgrade wait list, have so many points that you booked the first class flight with your points and that’s what people don’t realize they can do. That’s the eyeopening moment. I was like, wait a minute, why was I chasing status to maybe get a freebie when I could have just spent on really rich credit cards and booked whatever the heck I wanted and taken all the stress out of it. That sounds a lot more interesting than trying to jump through hoop after hoop because the airlines keep changing these programs and usually the spread of the value has been diminishing for a majority of elite travelers. I know there’s an article in the Wall Street Journal today about people are now becoming more loyal to their credit cards than they are to their airlines and myself, that’s a hundred percent the case.

Mindy Jensen:
Okay, so going back to your big wallet, what’s in your wallet? How do you keep this all sorted? Because I’ve got, I don’t know, I’ve got three credit cards that I know that well actually, I don’t know which ones give me best benefits. I’ve got a Hyatt card, I’ve got the capital, the Venture X card, and I’ve got the Southwest card and I just randomly swipe whichever at the grocery store or how do you keep track of this? One is for groceries and this one is for gasoline and this one is for travel.

Brian Kelly:
It’s confusing and I would tell people just get a couple cards that, for example, the Amex Gold, I keep going back to that dining and grocery, which is what a lot of people spend on. Just know that you always use that card for that and then everything else you should be spending on your Venture X card in my opinion, because you’re getting, unless you really need Hyatt points, then I would also just say, well, if you’re really looking to get high points, you get your account to a level where you can spend a week in Maui, then you might want to work to that. Otherwise, when you look at the math, a Hyatt point is worth one and a half cents. A Southwest point is like 1.2, your or your Capital one points are worth one, but you’re earning two for every purchase. You’re getting 2 cents in value minimum back. So you would never want to earn one Southwest point because it’s way less than one capital one point. You’d never want to even get one Hyatt point because with your Capital One points you can just book Hyatt Hotels and pay for that. You can’t transfer to Hyatt, but you could just pay for it. But in general that 2% back is very, very rich. Unless you are trying to spend on the Hyatt card to get elite status or something. You generally, I don’t think those cards are worth spending on.

Mindy Jensen:
Okay, that’s good to know. No, I’ve got tons of Hyatt points. I don’t think I’m ever going to pay for a hotel again.

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, so then I would just put everything in your Capital One Venture X at this point. I mean that’s two x on everything. Those points can be redeemed for pretty much anything and they also do have some really interesting transfer partners as well.

Mindy Jensen:
Would you also recommend the Chase Ultimate Rewards points card?

Brian Kelly:
Yeah, I mean a Chase Sapphire, I really think the Chase Sapphire Reserve pays for itself, especially if you live in a city with a Sapphire Lounge, they’re opening a ton more this year. They’re really beautiful. Everything’s totally free like the Capital One lounge. So when you start adding, when you go into these lounges at Capital One, you can get a meal that you would’ve paid easily $25 for in the airport, plus the ease and enjoyment of it. So yeah, I would recommend in General Capital One, chase and Amex or the three premier transferable points programs, chase Sapphire Reserve or Preferred are no-brainers and the Amex Gold card for those who spend on groceries and dining, it’s an absolute no-brainer.

Scott Trench:
Okay, but I’m listening to this podcast, right, and I’m hearing Brian the Points guy, come on, tell me all this, but there’s nowhere world where someone listening to this podcast is going to open up the Amex Gold and the Chase Sapphire Reserve and the Venture X one as result this podcast and spend a thousand dollars or whatever in season. So which one is the first move that I should make coming out of it?

Brian Kelly:
So to your point, whenever you get a new credit card, you need to spend a certain amount within a certain time period, like three to 6,000 within three to four months usually. So I would never recommend someone biting off more than they can chew. That being said, I have a case. I mean I think most points experts having those three credit cards, even though the annual fees will be over a thousand dollars, you’re easily recouping that back. Anyone who travels and knows how to use the travel credit, you’re easily recouping that back. You could get all three in one day. If you do spend a lot and could do that, it’s not going to, in fact, many people in the industry experts will get three credit cards in one day. There’s actually, you get higher approval rates because the banks may not see the other approval or the application.
But I think if you spend on travel or if you spend on dining and groceries, I think like most families do, having an Amex gold is a no-brainer. If you have a friend who has won any of these credit cards, you could ask them to refer you. They’ll get like 30,000 points too, which is always nice, especially if you have a spouse. That’s what people, if you’re married couples need to know too. You could refer each other and each get the signup bonus. That’s what we call two player mode is you get your spouse involved too and then all of a sudden you’re referring each other for credit cards, you’re each maximizing. That’s when it gets really compelling and you can start ricking in the points every year.

Scott Trench:
Some of our listeners come on and they spend remarkably little money. They live in a low cost living area and I’m talking like 2000, $3,000 a month in household expenses. Do you still, and they don’t travel that frequently, maybe a trip or two a year kind of deal at that level of spending. Does the math change, would you then tell people to shy away from all three of those credit cards?

Brian Kelly:
If you’re not going to travel, you just want to get a cash back credit card, 2% back on all your spend every year. If you’re paying rent, you have to get a built credit card. The built credit card also offers double on travel, three x on dining. So I would say to someone who wants one credit card, no annual fee and who pays rent and travels and dines, the built is a no brainer, no questions asked. There’s literally not a, if you’re paying rent today and you’re not getting free super valuable points, once again, you’re throwing money in the trash can and not only that, built records, your rent payment on the credit rail, so you actually get your credit increases. It shows your credit responsibility as long as you pay it off in full every month. So yeah, the built for low spenders or who have rent and might eat out, I think the built card’s the absolute winner there.

Scott Trench:
Okay, so you would literally suggest though for most people go out there and today if you’re just getting started, go get the Amex gold, the Chase Sapphire Reserve and the Capital One Venture X and pay in the ballpark a little, an excess of a thousand dollars in fees, if not all at once over the next couple of months, presuming you can actually hit the minimum spend limits on those and you’ll see the reward and if you use ’em for the appropriate categories of spend that they give the maximum point benefits in, you’ll recoup that a thousand dollars in fees easily and more every year.

Brian Kelly:
Absolutely. Each card has a bunch of different, and then the signup bonuses alone will pay for the card. Capital one, venture XI believe is 3 95. You’re getting $300 a year, so really it’s a $95 a year card and you’re going to get 60. I don’t know the signup bonus off the top of my head, but let’s say it’s 60,000, which is low for that card, that’s $600 right there. So if you’re paying $95 a year, that’s six years of the annual fee just paid for it just by the first signup bonus alone. You know what I mean? The economics are not hard to get in your advantage because you’re getting the huge signup bonus and then every year you’re getting the category bonuses using these cards for the two x three x four x five x categories, which helps you sustain the points coming in beyond that signup bonus.

Scott Trench:
Awesome. I asked this question about airlines earlier and you said, don’t give your loyalty to the airlines unless you’re super duper up there and super committed because they will just be reciprocated. So unless you’re going to get into these elite tiers, don’t worry about it is what I’m raising.

Brian Kelly:
If you’re a casual flyer of United, the only reason why you would want to get a United Credit card is for the perks like buying your ticket to get free check bags or priority boarding. But beyond that, don’t just spend on that United card because you’re earning an inferior currency versus these other, the transferable primo currencies we’re talking about.

Scott Trench:
And then putting aside the credit card spend, and I know I should spend generally speaking on my Chase Sapphire reserve card and not my Hilton or whatever cars here, but which of those hotel chains would you recommend people begin frequent or begin building loyalty with? Is the world different in that world always. If I’m in the higher tiers of Hilton, for example, is that better than being in the higher tiers of United? Generally speaking, and there is an advantage of loyalty for one of these hotel chains.

Brian Kelly:
I think most people view airline status as more valuable than hotel status in general. Hyatt I would say is if you talk to 10 points experts like myself and say, what’s your favorite hotel program? I think a majority would say Hyatt. Hyatt has real value. They have not devalued the program as much as the other, but I would say join the hotel program that has the properties in the destinations you like. Hyatt has less properties, but they have generally a little bit more higher end properties, but they have huge gaps around the world. It’s one of the smaller chains. So if you go to Spain and Portugal and you want to say in five star hotels, it may not be the best program, but the hotels have really watered down. You used to get big suite upgrades. Interestingly now with the cost of labor and inflation, hotel managers don’t want to upgrade you to big suites because it costs more for them to clean.
The staffing and labor has really hit the hotel space, whereas the airlines, it could be argued their business classes have gotten better. So when you can get a live flat seed in a beautiful meal and that special lounge treatment that you’re getting more so, I’m not saying hotel loyalty is lost, but I think it’s a little less worth chasing. And most of the hotel credit cards, if you look at the free perk, the free weekend night or two nights a year and the annual fee, it’s very simple to get more in value from the free night than the annual fee. Then math is very easy to math on the hotel cards.

Mindy Jensen:
I saw a post from my friend Jenny Rosell who’s an estate attorney just the other day, and she said, don’t forget about your loyalty points and rewards in your estate plan. Is that a thing?

Brian Kelly:
Absolutely. And in my book I interviewed an attorney, so also in divorce points will be split up by the court, it communal property. It’s something that people do not realize even though you’re not taxed on points of miles and it’s very tough to put a valuation, they clearly have value and you should account for them when you pass. Unfortunately, I see this all the time, people do not. I recommend everyone put your frequent flyer passwords in your estate so that your next of kin can come in and redeem those points and they don’t have to go through all the paperwork of trying to beg the airline to transfer them to you. Many airline and hotel programs will expire your points when you expire because you technically don’t own them, but if you’re next of kin have your information and can log into your accounts, they can redeem the points for tickets for themselves or hotels. So yeah, it’s something most people don’t think about, but it is good to always have that in your estate because some people have millions of points and they go their next of kin can’t get access and most programs will say, sorry, they might make an exception if you send in tons and tons and tons of paperwork, but who wants to do that when dealing with someone’s passing?

Mindy Jensen:
Right, so you just don’t tell the airline and you just keep using the points until they’re all gone.

Brian Kelly:
Exactly, because allowed to do that, I’m allowed to book points for whoever I want, so my next of Kim would come in and just log into my accounts and just book tickets for themselves, run ’em down to zero, call it a day, instead of losing the thousands in value because you forgot to put your password in your estate.

Mindy Jensen:
Okay, my last question is, let’s say I’ve got these four cards and I don’t know which one is the best for which type of purchase. How do I go in and find out what is the best, which card gives me the most on groceries or whatever?

Brian Kelly:
I mean at the points guy, we have a huge editorial team, so if you want to look for the best credit card for gas, groceries, dieting, et cetera, I would just say Google it or just put in the points guy at the end, our team of experts, we narrow this down. In my book, I actually have a list of all the top categories and the top credit cards. If you have a credit card and you’re like, I wonder what card this earns me, everyone today go through your wallet, look at your credit card, just Google earning Chase Freedom Unlimited. It’ll take you probably to a points guide post. We usually rank higher than the banks and just make sure you then use that card for that purchase. Some credit cards have rotating categories. I find them annoying, but it can be more value staying on top. Sometimes you have to activate them, but most credit cards, if there’s a bonus category, you just need to make sure you use it at that merchant and you automatically will get the extra points.

Mindy Jensen:
Okay, and Brian, you have mentioned how to win at travel a couple of times. Tell us about this book.

Brian Kelly:
So this is for anyone who’s like, this is so confusing. How to win at Travel is my guide to helping people who want to just be better travelers. I mean, I see all day in the airports, people melting down, they don’t know the rules and so often you need to understand how travel works to get what you want. I see people screaming at the agents at the airport and I’m like, you’re doing it all wrong. If you were nice to that person and knew what to ask for, you’re going home tonight. But because you don’t understand how the system works, you’re screaming at this poor employee who wants you out of here. So the book, it’s 15 chapters of how to budget. If you’re 22 years old and you want to start traveling, but on social media nowadays everything is take the trip, do this, but how do you actually set yourself up?
Where do you go? How do you stay safe? I interviewed a lot of really interesting people. So there’s the three core chapters are earning points, redeeming points and perks, but I also highlight jet lag, how to beat jet lag, which I learned a ton about circadian science while writing the book. So even if you’re an expert traveler, an expert points person, this book is a great gift for anyone who wants to be a traveler or is a frequent traveler and also fear of flying. I’m always shocked how many people have a fear of flying, and I dove deep into that. Interviewed Whoopi Goldberg who used to not be able to even get on planes. Now she flies across the Atlantic by herself. So how to come with that? Basically just how to become a better traveler.

Mindy Jensen:
So you wrote this book for me, essentially thank you

Brian Kelly:
For you and so that I can enjoy dinner parties again because I am always the most popular dinner party guest and I just need to give my voice a break. So I’m just going to carry this book around with me wherever I go and say read for yourself.

Mindy Jensen:
Awesome. Well, Brian, I really appreciate your time today. This was a lot of fun. I learned a ton and apparently I now have a bunch of credit cards to go open up before I build that house.

Scott Trench:
I learned a ton too. You probably made me a thousand, 1500 bucks just on this conversation your first two minutes, so I really appreciate it.

Brian Kelly:
Thank you. Thank you guys for having me.

Mindy Jensen:
Yeah, thank you Brian, and we will talk to you soon. Alright, that was the point, Scott and Scott, I have to tell you, I learned so much. I was really looking forward to this interview the entire time that it was on the calendar. I kept waiting for the day we got to talk to him because I had so many questions. I really feel like I got some good answers. He gave some really great credit card suggestions that are like all encompassing credit cards, like the Capital One, venture X, American Express Gold, chase Sapphire Reserve. I think those are great starters for people who like me, just don’t have the mental bandwidth to hang onto this. But if you’re not like me, Brian’s got a new book where you can dive deep into all of this stuff and I’m so excited. I had such a great time talking to him. How about you, Scott?

Scott Trench:
Look, there’s that framework of you got to spend your time on, you start out spending your time on a $10 an hour activity in high school, and then you try to get to a 25 or a hundred dollars activity and then as an entrepreneur you try to find a thousand or $500 activity. Well, this is, I think that if I spend five hours actually doing this stuff, now that we’ve interviewed all of the biggest names in the point space and I’ve never followed their advice other than getting a Chase Sapphire preferred card off, I finally now after talking to the points guy and he just told me exactly how to make $1,500 in incremental value on my points. If I don’t do that, what am I doing here? This is a super valuable thing and I think that for folks who have ignored this for a long time, if you’re like me at all, spending four or five hours going down the rabbit hole, setting the system up and then actually spending the points that you’ve accumulated probably has five ish plus thousand dollars maybe per year in benefit for you. So it’s something I’ve been missing.

Mindy Jensen:
I have been missing it too. I’ve been accruing them at a not nearly high rate as you have, but now I’m excited to start accruing them even more. I’m not kidding, Scott, we’re buying a, we’re building a house and the builder said that we could pay for all of the materials upfront instead of them doing it. And I’m like, yes, please

Scott Trench:
Might include my rental properties and include the signing bonuses I got for these things years ago, and I did a couple of the travel hacks and forgot about it. I’m sure that’s the case for a lot of people and the community, you just lose track of it after a couple of years and the fourth credit card you sign up after you get going down the rabbit hole. But I think it’s just sustaining that and using it and putting a few hours of work is thousands of dollars in value if you’re actually going to put it in. So that’s my big takeaway and I’m very grateful for the free consultation I got from The Points guy, how my own personal situation. That was great.

Mindy Jensen:
Yeah, that was awesome. I am so excited for his book. Alright, Scott, should we get out of here?

Scott Trench:
Let’s do it.

Mindy Jensen:
Alright, that wraps up this excellent travel episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. He is the Scot Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying, take care, little bear.