The Best (and Worst) States in the US to Retire in 2024 (FIRE Faster?)

Mindy:
People looking to achieve early retirement often focus on when they should retire, but they rarely focus on where they should retire. Should you relocate for financial independence? What’s the impact and what should you consider before making the move? That’s what we are going to be covering in today’s episode. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my finally back in Denver so he can record a show with me, co-host Scott Trench.

Scott:
Thanks, Mindy, great to be here, and I’m always amazed at your ability to come up with a mountain of intro statements like that, so thank you so much. BiggerPockets has a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You’re in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you’re starting. Although it’s a lot easier if you end in one of the places we’ll discuss today. Today we’re going to discuss the best and worst places to retire in 2024. We’re going to talk about how that decision might help you retire earlier if you can or want to relocate, and we’re going to talk about what factors to consider before making the move to discuss all of this. We’re so excited to be joined by Alex Galey, a lead data reporter at Bankrate. Alex writes about the numbers behind consumer finance and economic trends. She’s crunched the numbers and looked at the data for the best and worst places to retire in 2024. So you don’t have to. Alex, we’re so excited to have you join us today. Thank you so much for being here on BiggerPockets Money.

Alex:
Oh, thank you for having me here. I’m really excited to talk about this very important topic today.

Mindy:
This is a very important topic because it can be so easy to kind of just stay where you are and what is actually the case is sometimes if you move, you could reduce your timeline for financial independence. Think living in New York City versus living in Kansas, Kansas is going to have just a lower cost of living, which reduces your expenses, which reduces the amount of money that you need to save for retirement. So before we jump into your list, what criteria did you look at when you created this list?

Alex:
Yeah, great question. There’s a lot of data points that went into this. Our study at bank rate ranked all 50 US states based on affordability, overall wellbeing, quality and cost of healthcare, weather and crime. And these are all the most important factors that impact a retiree’s quality of life. And like I said, we looked at over a dozen different data points across these buckets, so each bucket carried a different weight and we weighed affordability at 40%, which is the heaviest of all the categories just because we have found at our data at bank rate that many Americans consistently year over year feel behind on their retirement savings. And at the same time, inflation has pushed prices up over 20% since early 2020. And so those two things are really forcing a lot of Americans to shift their plans or figure out ways to stretch their retirement dollars. Maybe a combination of both, but in addition to affordability, we looked at overall wellbeing because that’s also important. Quality and cost of healthcare at 20% and then weather at 10% and crime at 5%.

Scott:
Can you give us a little bit more depth maybe on the overall wellbeing number there? That seems like the most subjective of the bunch, and how do you determine that one state’s better or worse for overall wellbeing?

Alex:
Yes, it can definitely be subjective and it’s sometimes hard to grab data and encapsulate what overall wellbeing means at a state level and even at a city level. But we tried our best and really there’s this index that is really informative and helpful called the Community Wellbeing Index that we considered in this ranking. We also looked at diversity across these states. We also looked at arts, entertainment, recreation, establishments per capita, and another metric we included in that bucket was adults 62 and older per a thousand residents. So I would say this ranking does tend to skew more towards that traditional retirement age of 62 to 65. That’s really the only metric though of all the metrics that does kind of favor an older demographic when it comes to retirement. But yeah, community wellbeing index carries a significant weight in their diversity and arts and entertainment and recreation establishments per capita.

Scott:
Awesome. Yeah, so if you want to add subjective opinions to this, for example, in Dallas you have to root for the cowboys, so that would give you a zero on the wellbeing standpoint, but those are all subjective things that you as an audience have to layer in on top of this. The quality of life index is probably the one that is most subjective out of all of these other areas. And it sounds like the ranking order goes 40% to affordability then to this quality of life index then to weather, and then what was the other two?

Alex:
It goes 40% for affordability, 25% for overall wellbeing. It’s important, that’s an important metric and that the metrics that make up that bucket try to encapsulate lots of different things that are important to overall wellbeing, healthcare, both quality and cost at 20% and then weather at 10% and crime at 5%.

Scott:
Okay, fantastic. Alright, so let’s jump to it. What are the three worst places to retire? Let’s start there.

Alex:
Yeah, so Alaska, New York, Washington are the worst states to retire based on the metrics we consider in our study and how they were weighed to dive a little bit deeper. Alaska ranked poorly in every bucket except overall wellbeing where it landed closer to the middle. New York ranked poorly in the affordability bucket and towards the middle for healthcare, weather and crime and it actually ranked really well for overall wellbeing. And then no surprise, Washington also ranked poorly in affordability in soso and other categories. The one category it ranked well in was healthcare. So I would say the common thread among these three states is that they’re costly to live in relative to the rest of the country. Housing in these states is more expensive, whether you rent or buy property, sales tax are on the higher end food and eating out is going to cost more. You may be spending more on gas and transportation and the cost of healthcare is really high in Alaska and in New York specifically.

Mindy:
So those aren’t really surprises. New York is a nice place to be, but they don’t have the best weather, especially in the wintertime, but also in the summertime when it’s nice and hot Alaska. I understand because it is really expensive to be up there. It is really expensive, everything’s really expensive and it’s so far away and it’s cold like, I dunno, 365 days a year or something. So those I understand. I was actually really surprised by the number one state,

Alex:
The best state to retire,

Mindy:
The best state to retire in. So let’s talk about that state.

Alex:
Yeah, I would say the states that landed towards the bottom of the list aren’t all that surprising because affordability carries such a heavy weight in this ranking. It really did push a lot of those high cost states to the top, or sorry to the bottom of our ranking, but a surprise, the biggest surprise I think was the number one state, the best state for retirement and that is Delaware followed by West Virginia and Georgia, which were also semis surprising. I think Delaware flies under the radar as a retirement spot in the US but it actually has a lot of strong selling points. It’s a pretty tax friendly state for retirees. There isn’t state or local sales tax, there’s no income tax on social security benefits also has lower property taxes relative to the rest of the country. It scores well in diversity and overall wellbeing and it does have a high share of residents who are 62 and older compared to its population.
It is a pretty small state of course, so it doesn’t have a huge population, but it does have a high share of older folks in that state. It also has a high number of healthcare establishments per capita and generally just high quality healthcare, which is important in those later years of life. And it’s important no matter how old you are, I mean even if you’re retiring early, having access to healthcare and high quality healthcare is important. It also has a pretty temperate climate and it’s one of the safest states when it comes to natural disasters. And then cost of living, which took a huge weight in this ranking in Delaware, is only slightly higher than the national average. So it is more affordable than a lot of other places in the country. It’s not necessarily the most affordable, but generally relatively speaking, if you compare it across the country, it is more affordable. Really the only two categories that score lower in work, crime and cost of healthcare. So generally I would say Delaware checks a lot of the boxes for those who are wanting to retire.

Scott:
Alright, we’ve got to take a quick ad break, but after this we’re going to hear from Alex about the top three cities you should consider retiring to

Mindy:
Welcome back. We are joined by Alex Galey.

Scott:
This is really disappointing news to my father who has a really strong anti Delaware stance, largely because there’s a toll on I 95 that is like $8 each way outside of Newark on the way to Newark in New Jersey on I 95, and we have such a strong dislike for subsidizing the retirement of the good people of Delaware that we go 10 miles out of the way to avoid that. So that’s probably a part of the reason why it’s so nice to retire in Delaware. But I will say I was surprised by Delaware, but I was even more surprised by the second position on the list. Can you tell us about what that state was and why it made the cut?

Alex:
Yeah, so West Virginia ranked number two as the best state to retire in our ranking. Really what catapulted it to the top was that affordability category, which carries the 40% weight. It is the most affordable state in the country, and so that’s really why it landed in the second position. It landed more in the middle when it came to crime and weather and overall wellbeing and actually did rank poorly for healthcare. So it’s kind of a catch 22 with West Virginia because while it ranks really well for affordability, those low living costs that allow you to stretch your retirement dollars further, it ranks really poorly for healthcare, both access and quality and cost of healthcare. So these are the things that you have to weigh against one another in retirement and that’s what makes these decisions really tricky. You have to prioritize what’s most important to you and there’s not going to be a place in the US that checks all the boxes.

Mindy:
I think that’s important to note that nothing is going to rank number one all the way across. Now here’s something I was like, oh, I wonder if there’s a neighboring state that ranked better for healthcare because West Virginia ranked number 50 for quality and cost of healthcare, but regular old Virginia ranked number 10, so if you wanted to live in West Virginia and get all of those benefits, just live really close to Virginia and then hopped the border to go to your healthcare providers. There you go. Problem solved.

Alex:
Yeah, it’s a great hack. I love that. I love that you connected the dots there and that certainly is the case. There are going to be states that border each other that are better for certain things than the others. So if you’re okay with driving and taking the extra time to drive and get that higher quality of healthcare, then by all means that could definitely be a way to take advantage of those lower living costs while still having fairly accessible healthcare.

Scott:
Looks like a large number of the next kind of best states to retire are these cheaper southern or Midwestern states, and that makes a lot of sense to me given that affordability is so high on the list of factors here and that really where you want to retire, what wellbeing means to you is so subjective that we have to use this index that probably and weighed it to your credit appropriately lower than affordability, which is much more objective on it. But were there any surprises as you went down the next five to 10 that stood out in terms of best places to retire that maybe break the mold?

Alex:
I think what was more surprising is just that we do this ranking year over year, and so it is really interesting to see what states move up and down the list based on all these metrics and how they’re weighted. For example, last year Iowa was the best state to retire and then we saw Iowa move not too far down, but further down in the list is still in that top 15. But we saw that shift because those metrics around affordability really have shifted year over year for Iowa. So it is really fascinating to kind of see which states move up and down the ranking every year. You do kind of tend to see the normal suspects at the bottom and the usual suspects at the top, but it is kind of fascinating to see how cost of living really can change in a place within a year or even within a few years.
I mean, look at Florida for example. That is, I would say, I would argue Florida’s still a fairly popular retirement destination, but I think it has a lot of people questioning. I think a lot more people are questioning whether they want to retire in Florida more so than maybe they did a decade ago because cost of living has risen so much in Florida over the last decade. Home prices have skyrocketed, property taxes have skyrocketed, homeowners insurance. We also know there’s been an increase in frequencies and just severities of natural disasters, which can be financially devastating. And so it is really interesting to sort of see shifts over time and where is it better to put down roots and spend your retirement years because you may be going somewhere now that is affordable and checks a lot of those boxes, but a lot of these places change over time too, and so that’s kind of part of the equation that it’s hard to predict, but it’s interesting kind of see those shifts.

Scott:
One of the things that surprised me for example was the fact that Louisiana was ranked as such a bad place to retire at number 33, but Mississippi was ranked number six. What do you think the difference, and another good example is Pennsylvania ranked number seven and Maryland at number 43, and I’m like, I grew up in Maryland and I have a bunch of friends in family in Pennsylvania, they’re so similar, they’re right next to each other in a couple of those. What do you think the difference is between some of these neighboring states being so good or so bad relative to one another is I think of as in some ways very similarly perhaps naively

Alex:
When it comes to a state like Louisiana versus Mississippi, which are both fairly affordable, low cost states, what’s going to make the difference between them and our ranking are all the other buckets. So I would say generally speaking, Mississippi likely just ranked better in some of these buckets versus Louisiana, which to just dive in a little bit more specifically, if I were to compare the two,

Mindy:
Louisiana is much higher on crime.

Alex:
So crime, it’s much higher on crime, which while it only carries 5% of the total rankings weight, it still carries the weight. So I would say that likely impacted it, even just the affordability difference. I mean there’s still both relatively affordable states, but Mississippi does rank a lot higher for affordability than Louisiana does at two versus Louisiana’s at 13. If you kind of aggregate all the metrics we looked at in that category. So because that carries such a heavy weight even that can make such a difference and where they land and Louisiana is kind of in the middle of the pack, it’s not at the very bottom. So again, still ranked pretty well for affordability, but it ranked really poorly for crime ranked poorly for healthcare and ranked poorly for overall wellbeing. Those are a lot of the same metrics that Mississippi ranked poorly in as well, but just maybe not as bad.

Mindy:
I think that affordability number is really from two to 13, and then healthcare and wellbeing rank are kind of the same, whether rank is kind of the same, the crime really sticks it to Louisiana. But I love this list because then I can start thinking, oh, if I stay in my current house, I’m surprised by some of these Colorado’s number 44, really Colorado should be number one. The best state in the union says the Colorado resident.

Scott:
My sense of wellbeing is ATS peak in October and at its bottom in probably February unless I’m skiing. So yeah, I think that the type of Mindy, oh, this is the best place ever right now, and then I’ll wake up in three months and be like, oh

Mindy:
Yeah,

Scott:
I remember

Mindy:
Not me, I got a ski pass this year. The whole year is going to be awesome. You can either bike or snowboard.

Scott:
California and Louisiana and Texas have great takes on seasons where they skip winter, so that’s always nice.

Alex:
Yeah, I think this is all, so ultimately it’s such a personal decision where you choose to retire and this ranking is really just a starting point for people who are maybe feeling a little lost and just want more information in front of them to make a better decision around that. This is not by all means the holy grail. I would just say this allows you to have all the information laid out in front of you and so that you can make these tough decisions a little easier, but ultimately it’s a very personal decision and you might not even, affordability might not even be the top to be top priority for you. Maybe healthcare or just being close to friends and family is more important to you than cost of living. And so these are all the things you have. There’s so many factors to weigh out in that decision and it is ultimately a very personal one, but hopefully this ranking kind of paints a broader picture of trends that are happening when it comes to where to settle down in retirement and where are the places that have better healthcare and where are the places that are more affordable and where are the places that are ranking well when it comes to overall wellbeing and that maybe are warmer but are still maybe also the natural disaster part of this is important in crime.
So this kind of just lays it all out in front of people to make that decision.

Scott:
I think in the context of an early retiree or a traditional retiree, there’s a couple of other considerations that I would love to get your take on in here. So I’ll use California as an example. California is one of 13 states that does not tax social security income, which probably has some boost to some people when they’re thinking about how to think through this. California also has a lot of places that are rent controlled. So if you’re a long-term rental renter and you make that move 15, 20, 30 years before retirement, you could be locked into a much lower rent payment, which makes it much, much more affordable in some cases. California also has a very interesting tax system for property taxes and relatively cheap insurance in many parts of the state for that. So if you’re a homeowner and have a paid off home, which can be very expensive obviously, but if you’re planning 30 years out, for example, towards traditional retirement that paid off home, you probably won’t see your tax basis step up a tremendous amount in retirement.
And that coupled with social security could be a very powerful influence. I think there are nine states as well that do not tax income in this country. Is Texas one of them as well? So there’s a couple of those big states that don’t tax income and that can be really powerful for someone who’s planning to do private money lending or has some other active or business asset that they’re going to be earning. Whereas a state like Texas might be really bad for a real estate investor because if your primary income sources from your cashflow from rental properties, it’s probably likely to be low taxed income and you’re going to be paying out the wazoo and property taxes, which is where a lot of local funding goes in Texas for example, or in sales tax unlike like Delaware is a great example of a place where that might be a great place for a rental property investor to retire. So anyways, any of those considerations make it through or how do you think about some of those factors when you’re compiling the list? Or is it mostly on the cost side that we’re thinking about things?

Alex:
Yeah, I would say it’s more emphasized on the cost side cost of living, but I would say that we considered property taxes in every state, the average of that. I also considered combine state and local sales tax rates in this ranking. And like you said, a lot of places that maybe don’t tax on income, they find other ways to get you and there are places like for example like Florida, no income tax in Florida, but property taxes are pretty high there and you also just have to consider how you’re being taxed in other ways such as sales tax. So there’s a lot of different ways you can be taxed and it’s really important to do your homework in your specific state but also in your local area to understand how you’re going to get taxed and how that’s going to affect your bottom line and how far your retirement dollars can stretch in that particular area. And that’s where I recommend bringing in a tax expert, bringing in a financial advisor and running the numbers and looking this information up with them and really studying up on knowing what you’re getting into. I think that’s where it’s important to lean on these experts who do this day in day out and who can really give you a clear sense of how much you could be paying in taxes even if you live in a state that has no income tax or maybe you don’t get taxed and social security benefits.

Mindy:
Stay tuned after our final break where we’ll break down what you should consider before relocating on your FI journey.

Scott:
Alright, let’s jump back in and reveal what everyone’s been waiting for around where New Jersey ranks in the list of best places to retire. All that makes a lot of sense and I think the broader, the thing I would be thinking about is if you’re in the situation is do that and know that if you’re in one of these states that’s towards the bottom of the ranking, like a California for example because of affordability maybe in New York as well, just plan around that and think about the ways to take advantage of certain other rules that are in place, right? Again, like a homeowner in California is one of my favorite examples because they’re living in a place that’s beautiful, great weather and they’re probably locked into really low costs for a really long time if you’re willing to stay put. But if you’re going to be moving from Maryland to California, for example in your retirement, that’s going to be really expensive and that’s going to set you back a couple of years potentially on that from moving from Maryland to West Virginia, you can have a good time in there. It’s beautiful, beautiful state. Just have to drive across the border to Virginia for healthcare potentially.

Alex:
Yeah, that’s a great point that you make there. I would say the context behind this ranking is really if you are going to relocate for retirement, if you’re already living in California and you want to stay there for retirement, I think that’s that particular, you’re in that particular situation where you’re not wanting to relocate. I think for this ranking, it is very much geared towards those Americans who are maybe living in a higher cost place and want to move somewhere more affordable or maybe they’re living somewhere more affordable, but they have this dream of always wanting to live in California or in a certain part of the country that does cost more and it’s making sure you’re planning for that and you’re thinking about all the costs that are associated with making a move to a more expensive place. So yeah, I would say affordability depends on where you’re coming from and where you’ve been based. Again, moving from California to Georgia is going to look a lot different. The numbers are going to look a lot different for you in retirement than moving from Georgia to California, and so it really is relative to where you’re coming from and where you’re going.

Mindy:
Yeah, I think this is a great example of gathering up all the information so you can make an informed decision. This doesn’t mean that just because what’s number 50 Alaska just because Alaska is the least. Well, let’s see, how do I phrase this so I don’t upset Alaskans? Just because Alaska comes in number 50 on the overall ranking doesn’t mean it’s not an amazing place to live. It just means that it is not taking into all these factors. It doesn’t work out all that well. There are better states to live in that take into account the affordability and the healthcare and all of those things.

Scott:
Mindy, I think it’s okay. I don’t think a lot of people, I think it’s a small minority of folks who look forward to their retirement in Alaska on there and more power to those folks out there. I think that that makes perfect sense.

Mindy:
Do you know how sturdy those

Alex:
People are?

Scott:
Yeah, wonderful place. I wouldn’t want to retire in Alaska.

Alex:
Yeah, I’ll just reemphasize that. States that land at the top are financially friendlier for retirees. They have lower housing costs, healthcare costs for the most part, as well as tax benefits. It’s going to be easier to stretch your fixed income in a state that has a lower cost of living compared to pricier states. Of course that’s just considering the numbers, the financial aspect of this decision. It’s also very much an emotional decision and it’s about being around people that you love and having community as well and a lot of other factors that play into that. So again, very personal decision at the end of the day, but I would say this ranking really is kind of showing you the states at the top that are more financially friendlier for that fixed income versus at the bottom less so

Mindy:
When you’re coming at this from a position of, do I have enough to retire? You might have enough to retire in West Virginia, so maybe you wish to retire sooner and therefore you will make a decision to move to West Virginia because it’s so much more affordable and therefore you are already independent. Or maybe you say, you know what? I’ve never been to West Virginia. I don’t know what it’s like. I don’t want to live in the southeast. Where’s West Virginia? I am so bad with, oh, that’s not even in the southeast. I’m so bad with my East coast geography.

Scott:
I grew up on the east coast. Mindy, I don’t know what we think of West Virginia as, it’s not northern. It’s not southern, it’s not Midwestern.

Alex:
Yeah, it’s kind of right in the middle.

Scott:
I think that’s not a you problem. I think that’s hard to label where West Virginia,

Mindy:
But I’m also really surprised to see where West Virginia is located on the map. So I need to do a little bit more studying in my geography, but when you can make a decision where you want to live based on all of these factors, I mean this is a really great starting point. Should somebody jump in and say, I’m going to retire because Alex Galey at Bankrate said I should live in West Virginia, so I’m just going to move there and retire. That’s probably not the best way to start your life after financial independence.

Scott:
Just a couple other call outs before we adjourn here that I found interesting. Again, Pennsylvania being ranked number seven and Maryland at 43 was surprising, but also I think we’d all agree that New Jersey definitely deserves to be much lower on the list and they’re ranked appropriately low at 35, so thank you for that. Alex, Texas, it came in at 42, which I found surprising is one of the worst places to retire around the country. Pretty close to California at 47 and then of the west coast states, California and Oregon are 47 and 48 respectively. Oregon was ranked 18th probably because it’s a lot more, relatively speaking, affordable than Washington or California in a lot of ways. Idaho is way up there and Arizona was low on the list, which was a surprise is relatively warm climate where I know a lot of people think about retiring too. So a bunch of surprises. Definitely a really cool research project that you’ve done here, Alex, and really good study that I think will help people make better informed choices around this. Thank you so much for putting together and coming on today.

Alex:
Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m glad I got to talk about this with you both. And it is a very important topic, something that Americans are thinking about a lot and especially as they get older, retirement is top of mind, and so it is important to be planning for where you plan to retire because that will highly impact your numbers and how much you ultimately need to feel comfortable in those years.

Mindy:
Yeah, this was great. I really appreciate your time today, Alex. Where can people find you online?

Alex:
They can find me on LinkedIn or on x. I am posting on there on a regular basis all articles and analyses that I do through Banky. You can also just check out banky.com. I have an author bio page there. So yeah, you can find me all over the internet. I have a footprint a little bit sprinkled everywhere on social media.

Mindy:
Alright, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for your time today Alex, and we will talk to you soon.

Scott:
Alright, that was Alex Galey from Bankrate. Mindy, what’d you think?

Mindy:
I thought that was a fascinating show because there’s so many different things to consider when you are planning your retirement, but where you should live. I really think that there’s not a lot of people who are considering that I’m just going to stay right where I am. Well, that’s great if you’ve got kids in a great school and you’ve got an affordable place to live, but what if you don’t? And what if you could change your PHI timeline by changing your address? So I think this is absolutely something that somebody should take a peek at just to see where their state ranks. I would like to apologize to all of our New Jersey listeners on Scott’s behalf.

Scott:
Turns out Alex,

Mindy:
Including our guest who it turns out lives in New Jersey. So anyway, if Scott offended you, please email [email protected]. He would love to have a debate about your great state.

Scott:
New Jersey’s. Beautiful. I got family that lives in New Jersey, we just ribbed on them when we were growing up. I grew up in Maryland, that’s all I’m sure. It’s a wonderful place to retire and a wonderful place in many regards around there and yeah, love it.

Mindy:
Scott, what did you think of this episode?

Scott:
I think that it was a great intro to the concept of where to think about studying retirement. And I am super interested in thinking about that next level of analysis following this up. Maybe we can get another guest to come in, like someone who’s super smart with retirement planning and tax preparation and those types of things because I think there’s something to unpack about the ways to make the worst places to retire, but probably the places that we all think about as retire as retirement locations like Florida on Texas and parts of the South and California and Hawaii. There’s dream places to retire. I think that there’s a way to work the systems that are in place in those states around income realization and keeping expenses like rent or housing super low that I would really be interested in learning about. To think about, okay, that’s the hardest place to retire. It’s really hard to work a career on the east coast in New York or New Jersey or whatever and then retire in California because of the dynamics we just discussed. But I bet you based on what we talked about earlier, that there’s a really good way to plan that out a couple of years in advance and that California can actually be relatively accessible to someone with a long-term time horizon for a really nice retirement in great weather, for example. So I’d be really interested in exploring that to the next level.

Mindy:
I think that’s a great thought, Scott, and I think in any one of these states you can have a great retirement, especially if you are a hearty soul and want to retire in Alaska. I’m probably not going to come visit you in my retirement, but know that I admire you. But all the other states that don’t have the brutal winters that Alaska does, there’s lots of opportunity to make your retirement wonderful. So just because your state ends up at the bottom of the list doesn’t mean you can’t have a great retirement. It just means that it’s not as advantageous considering all of these factors as it could be if you move to a different state. So like you said, this is a great starting off point and I just want people to be conscious of all the factors that go into their financial independence and early retirement life, not just do I have enough money? Alright, Scott, should we get out of here?

Scott:
Let’s do it.

Mindy:
That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying, oo canoe.