How Are You Marketing Yourself? with BiggerPockets Producer Kevin Leahy

Brandon:
This is the BiggerPockets Podcast, show 439.

Kevin:
What can I do with my mailer? What can I do on my website that just sets me apart a little bit? I don’t have to completely reinvent the wheel, but how can I carve out something and be that go-to guy in my area?

Intro:
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Brandon:
What’s going on, everyone. It’s Brandon Turner, host of the BiggerPockets Podcast, here with David Greene, in the sea shed again, because we literally just recorded two episodes in a row. It was last week’s with Marie Forleo, and this week where we’re going to talk about that episode a little bit. David Greene, what’s up, man. Welcome to the sea shed again.

David:
Thank you very much. I’m glad I got to be here, this is-

Brandon:
It’s still raining also.

David:
Yes it is. It’s been raining this entire time, a week later. We haven’t been able to leave. Please send food, we’re starving.

Brandon:
It never rains here. I live in the desert, but it has been raining the last couple of days. Anyway, so today, like we said, this show is going to unpack and really go in depth on a few different topics. First of all, we’re going to talk a lot about this idea of everything is figureoutable, meaning, how can real estate investors apply this to their life of figuring out, asking, “How do I accomplish this?” Not, “Can I accomplish this?” We’re going to talk about that. We also talk a bit about the idea of calling yourself a real estate investor if you’re not one yet.

Brandon:
If you’re brand new, do you fake it till you make it? We talk about that. You don’t want to turn people off if you’re brand new, so how do you build that credibility when you’re young? We talk a lot about that. And then third, we’re going to talk in-depth about marketing, about some of the ways that you can stand out as a marketer. And when I say marketing, I mean whether you’re buying properties, selling properties, trying to raise private capital, trying to talk to people that give you money from a private lending standpoint, talking to hard money lenders, doing direct mail marketing, all of that is marketing.

Brandon:
It’s basically how to get your business going. It’s the fuel that runs your business in every aspect. We talk a lot about that today as well. So that’s a roundup of today’s show. But before we get to that, let’s get today’s quick tip.

David:
Quick tip.

Brandon:
All right. Today’s quick tip is very simple, and it’s brought to you by our good friend and producer, Kevin. Kevin, welcome to the show, man. What’s your quick tip?

Kevin:
Man, always be ready. Always be ready. I was sitting here during this interview with Marie Forleo, I was a feeling really accomplished for booking such a big name on the show. I was planning out the rest of my holiday, and Brandon says, “Hey, why don’t you join us for a little wrap-up here? Join us now. Do you even have a mic?”

Brandon:
Now.

Kevin:
I don’t have a mic, ironically. I’m the producer whose audio sounds terrible. And all the guests who have been on the show who I have been really strict about their mics are going to get a laugh out of this.

Brandon:
We literally gave Kevin like a 30-second… And you were like, “I don’t know, man.” We used the method from Marie, is like, is the fear your GPS here that’s telling you to go towards it. And you did it and you crushed it today, Kevin.

Kevin:
I hope so. We talk a lot about the basement, guys. So stick a stick around for that. I get a little vulnerable about my own business challenges here.

Brandon:
Yeah. And we’ll explain a little more in the episode, who you are in terms of your real estate journey. Kevin is just an awesome dude. We’re honored to have you as a producer on this show, Kevin. So thank you for doing that and for joining us on this episode. And now, time to get into the interview with Kevin. Kevin, remind me, Leahy or Lehay, Lahey?

Kevin:
Leahy, that’s how I branded myself and set myself apart from the other Leahy in the world.

Brandon:
Leahy?

Kevin:
Yeah.

Brandon:
Like a Hawaiian you have a Lay-

Kevin:
Like Yodel-Lay-Hee-Hoo.

David:
There it is.

Brandon:
Kevin Leahy.

David:
That might actually stick as your brand from this point.

Brandon:
That might. It’s Kevin Yodel-Lay-Hee-Hoo.

Kevin:
Yeah. I’m going to stick myself to that one.

Brandon:
Yeah, that one, never a moment down.

David:
Kevin the yodeler investor.

Brandon:
Let’s remember that when he comes on next time, every time we’re going to put it on.

David:
I think that it should be announced every time you do a show with a yodeler that actually announces your presence.

Kevin:
And I have to dress in the traditional vestments

Brandon:
Of course. Well, that’s a given. Come on, Kevin. All right. Let’s jump into this interview with Kevin as we unpack the show. All right. Well, with that said, that was a last week’s show with Marie. If you guys did not listen to last week’s show with Marie, it was phenomenal. It was episode number 437 with Marie Forleo. You don’t have to listen to that episode in order to listen to this one, though I definitely recommend it because we’re going to unpack a few things she said. Specifically, like I said, we’re going to talk today about marketing. We’ll talk about that, about faking it till you make it, and also a little bit about this concept of everything is figureoutable. So Kevin, thanks for joining us today.

Kevin:
Thank you guys for bringing me out of the shadows here.

Brandon:
Yeah. So let’s talk about the show real quick. So first of all, everything is figureoutable. When I first heard that phrase, her book came out like a year ago or something like that, I heard it, and I was like, “That’s a cool phrase.” And then I never bought the book until like, I don’t know. What? A month ago or whatever, or a couple of weeks ago when I knew she was going to come on the show. I was like, “I got to read that book.” So I read it. And Marie is very much, you guys will notice if you look her up online, she very much teaches mostly women. Same way BiggerPockets is like 80% male listeners, I think it is. Kevin, do you know what percentage? Is it still 70, 80%. Something like that?

Kevin:
Yeah, it’s about 80%.

Brandon:
Yeah. Hers is opposite, it’s like 80%, I think female. And so it’s not a book I’d naturally pick up, but I wasn’t kidding, it really is one of those books I will probably recommend over and over. It’s got the compound effect, nodding in the content, but in the fact that it’s like… This is like the ultimate development book. You could go read 20 different books or you could read Everything Is Figureoutable and it has all the things that I’d want you to go read and the other books. Does that makes sense?

David:
Yeah. One-stop shop.

Brandon:
Yeah. It’s like one ring to rule them all.

David:
One ring to bind them.

Brandon:
One ring to bind them. Anyway. One book to bind them all. Anyway. But the phrase-

David:
Way to go, Gandalf, with your explanation here. That beard is definitely influencing your speech here, your communication style.

Brandon:
By the way I was, I was somewhere yesterday and I said the line… Somebody said, “You’re late.” And I said-

David:
That was with me.

Brandon:
Oh, was it?

David:
Yeah.

Brandon:
You need to get it right. That’s right. You are the one that screwed that up. I was like, “Brandon is never late. He arrives precisely when he means to.” And David had no idea what I was talking about. Kevin, do you know what I’m talking about?

Kevin:
I assume it’s a quote from Lord Of The Rings.

Brandon:
Gee, that’s a quote from Lord Of The Rings. You are not nerdy enough for this show. All right. Everything is figureoutable, the phrase. What are your thoughts on that? What came to mind when you heard that, David?

David:
First thing is that it flies in the face of excuses, because just everything is figureoutable, if that’s true, then when we tell ourselves things like, “I can’t do this, then everything is figureoutable isn’t true.” The first thing I really liked about it is that it forces you to analyze the belief system you currently have. Do you believe everything is figureoutable or do you believe that the system is rigged against you and you can’t make it unless, fill in the blank? The second thing I liked about it is that it’s also an invitation to figure things out, to tinker with things, to try to pull them apart, look at how all the pieces fit together. Which I would say that everybody here speaking agrees, that’s a healthier mindset to approach to something new, is, “Can I look and see how this all works together?”

Brandon:
Yeah, that’s really good. And I like that it invites your mind to start working, because it’s a question. It leads to the question, “How do I figure this out?” Everything is figureoutable leads to, “How do I figure this thing out?” Which goes to the Kiyosaki quote of, the wealthy say I can’t afford it… I’ve been talking to my daughter a lot, who’s four, Rosie, I say like, “Instead of saying, I can’t do it. It’s how do I do it? I can’t figure this out, I can’t… ” I tell the story once in a while of my daughter, she had one of those blocks, you know those blocks where you put the shapes inside and the shapes only fit a certain way?

David:
It’s square peg in the round hole.

Brandon:
Yeah, exactly. And it doesn’t work. The square doesn’t go in the round, you got to put the round in the round. And this is like a year ago, and she’s got this box and she’s trying to put this shape in the box and it won’t fit, and she’s getting angrier and angrier. And I’m watching this. She’s three at the time, so she’s super cute. And she’s trying to put this thing in the box, and she’s getting angrier and angrier and she’s like, “Aah! Aah!” She just takes it and throws it across the room. Little three-year-old Rosie just screams and throw it.

Brandon:
And it was just the perfect picture of frustration of what we all go through with different things. And then she goes… She takes three deep breaths and she stomps over to it. She picks up this box and she takes the piece and she shoves it back in there. And this time she turns it a little bit and it slides in. It was the right piece, it was actually she just had it turned wrong, it was going in diagonal. And so when I saw that, I just thought of this perfect picture of our life, of like, we are trying to push things in this box all the time, “I want to get this real estate business going. I’m trying to start this,” whatever you’re trying to do, “I’m trying to lose weight. I’m trying to improve my marriage. And I just keep pushing this piece and it’s not going.” And we want throw it across the room.

Brandon:
But sometimes it’s just a little tweak and it’s asking the question, “How do I make this fit?” If it’s figureoutable, if we take that belief, it’s figureoutable. now it’s a just matter of twisting. And all of a sudden, the energy, it’s so much easier because now we’re not pushing, we’re just twisting a little bit. So the question I have for you guys and everyone listening, is there an area of your life right now where you feel like you’re pushing really, really hard on something and getting frustrated that it’s not working, and really it maybe just needs a little tweak? Maybe you just need to take some deep breaths like Rosie did, and take some tweaks.

Brandon:
Kevin, I want to throw that at you. You might have an area that you’re struggling with right now, in that, maybe you do, but I’m also wondering, where have you in your life used this idea of everything is figureoutable?

Kevin:
I think just like Rosie, when she threw the thing down, she wasn’t detaching from the problem that she was looking at, she was so wrapped up in it and so emotional about it. And that little moment of detachment, Jocko talks about that too, but that stepping back, and what I really like about Marie and how I discovered her was through my wife, who… I was actually facing the decision about whether I should take the BiggerPockets job or this other job. The other job offer was actually a real Brandon. And it wasn’t just a nickname to be tacky with you.

Brandon:
Okay. I didn’t know. I wondered if you were just playing with me.

Kevin:
I don’t think you were buying it. It was real. And the BiggerPockets one, now, of course it looks great, but at the time it was more risky. The other one was a little bit more of a sure thing. mainstream. And my wife said, “I know this woman. Marie Forleo, and she has this trick that she does whatever she’s facing a big decision or feeling a little too close to something and has to make a high leverage decision. And what she does is she takes a step back and ask herself the question, or writes it down, and says, “Let me see how my body actually reacts to this? Does my body actually expand? Do I take a deep breath or do I contract and hunch my shoulders up and feel like in a defensive crouch?”

Kevin:
And I did that. And I was like, “Man, that is so good,” because it takes it brings you to step back from the thing that’s making you emotional and you’re swept up in it, and allows you a little bit of a detachment. And same thing with writing things down, as she talks about it in the show. I think it just gives you a little bit of a perspective and allows you to slow down and think about things. In my own real estate investing business, I’ve done the thing where you send direct mail, you don’t have a clear strategy. I’ve heard thousands of people on the podcast say, “You need to be consistent about direct mail.” And somehow I think I’m going to be the one person who’s different and send it once and get a reply.

Kevin:
But a lot of times you just get wrapped up in that, “Oh man, everyone else is getting deals on social media. I’m not there yet.” But if you take a step back and you think, and you write it down, “Okay, what have I done? How many pieces of I sent? How many people have I sent those two to three times to? What have I really said to them?” If you just sit there and write all down, it just doesn’t look like a personal thing anymore. Your strategy hasn’t been good enough or haven’t given it enough time. So I think that’s how I apply today to a real estate investing example.

Brandon:
In other words, the reason you’re here is because of Marie, we owe Marie everything.

Kevin:
Absolutely.

Brandon:
Thank you, Marie. Thank you, Marie Forleo for bringing Kevin to our life. All right. David, would you think on that before we move on to the second note today?

David:
What I was thinking when this was being discussed is that intensity can be a red flag that you need to slow down and detach. When you fill yourself with intense emotions trying to shove something in, what I think about is when your phone freezes and your screen stops responding, what do we all do? We smash on it just even more, “This isn’t working, let me do more of what doesn’t work.” I don’t know where it comes from, there’s a piece of us that just feels gratified by intensely trying to push through a problem.

Brandon:
Real quick. My mom and dad are visiting right now here in Hawaii. And my wife was just joking with me yesterday because she watched my dad try to answer his phone. And he grabs his phone and it’s ringing, and he can’t press the button. It’s not answering. He’s like, “It’s not answering. It’s not answering.” And he’s just hitting his phone.

David:
Smashing it.

Brandon:
Smashing his phone until it stops ringing, let it hang up finally or it goes to voicemail. All I want to do is be like, “Dad, dad just slowly put your finger on the button and then slide it to answer. That’s all you do.” But it’s him pressing harder and harder. Anyway.

David:
And it would taken detachment for him to see the very obvious thing.

Brandon:
Correct, he had to pull himself out of it.

David:
There you go. People are always going to have intense responses, monitor yourself. And when you’re feeling that emotion say, “Okay, wait a minute. I’m doing it. Let me take a step back.” I’ve seen this a lot of time from new investors trying to force a deal that’s not going to work. So I get the question of, “How do I make this seller take my offer? What’s the negotiating strategy that I can use to convince them to sell this to me for way less than asking price even though they have seven other offers at asking price?” And I just tell them, “You’re working on the wrong deal. Intensity is not going to get this thing solved. You need to step back, find a person in a different situation.”

David:
That’s the advice I’d have for everybody here, is, when you find yourself frustrated and responding with intensity, remember Brandon’s beautiful voice and Kevin’s great example, detach for a minute and ask yourself if this is the best tool to use to solve the problem.

Brandon:
All right. That’s good. The second thing I want to pull up from today’s interview was this idea of calling yourself a business owner, in our case, a real estate investor before you actually are one. And I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Kevin, I know you’ve started your real estate. By the way, do you want to give like a 10-second background on your real estate real quick? What are you doing? And I’m going to ask you the question. What are your thoughts on that? Is it misrepresenting yourself to tell everyone you’re a real estate investor. But first, let’s give a little insight who you are.

Kevin:
Yeah. I skipped straight to the rental property phase of the real estate investing career. I turned my primary residence into a rental, then bought a house hack. And so I do own three units in Washington, which is like, nothing sees that given the values here.

Brandon:
Yeah, it’s crazy.

Kevin:
But I had less confidence in, can I go out and negotiate a deal directly with someone in their living room? I skipped over, since I always had an agent helping me with the title and escrow process and the contract side, do I actually know how to do all the steps involved in writing a book contract and figuring out someone’s pain point and figuring out ways around that? That’s the phase of investing I’m in, where I’m trying to find off market deals. There’s a lot that comes with that you haven’t done before. And so that’s, right now, the phase that I’m in, is trying to figure out how to make a direct to seller business work.

Brandon:
And so how do you feel when you’re talking to a seller, if you’re going to reach out to them? Like if you were to say, “Yeah, I buy houses all over the DC area.” That would be probably misrepresenting, right? because you don’t buy them all over the… So how do you cross the line without lying, without misrepresenting yourself? How do you also communicate that you’re somebody to be trusted as a real estate investor, even though you’re just getting started?

Kevin:
And I think it makes it worse when I show up and they see that I look like I’m 16 years old. And James Dainard talked about that on his show with us. He had a Robin Waiter and he said, “Dude, at the time, I looked like I was 12.” And so it’s hard to get people to take you seriously. But I think the authenticity, I think a lot of people are going to see through it. If you’re going out and saying, “We’ve been in this business so long and we flip this many houses.” But I also think if you’re someone like me, who’s going out and looking at deals and you might either be doing a joint venture with someone because I don’t have that much experience in renovations, or you’re possibly looking at wholesaling the deal.

Kevin:
I think it’s good to just come out and be honest about that and say, “Hey, I work with various investors who have cash that they want to deploy, and they actually need to deploy and they need projects. And so I have various people, we may close in their name, but I’ll put down this figure and this money deposit so that you’re secure. And so I think a lot of people get into wholesaling or trying to dig up deals, and they feel uneasy about that because they’re like, “Well, I’m representing myself as this cash buyer. They might know I don’t have $600,000 sitting around.”

Kevin:
But if you just represent yourself as, “Hey, I’m involved in the real estate game, I have some rental properties. We’re always looking for more. We work with other people who have flipping businesses. Joe Asamoah is a guy that I could buy a deal with him.” So why don’t I just represent myself that way with the seller? And I think everyone knows that in businesses, there’s a marketing side. I can say, “Hey, my partner handles the financing side, so I’ll ask him about that.” Instead of saying, “Yeah, I have the money myself.” So yeah, I think it’s being open about that and thinking to yourself, “From the other person’s side, does it make any sense if I show up to them and I say, ‘Yeah, I have cash ready to go to buy a house right now’?”

Kevin:
I think their BS detector is going to start firing off a little bit if I do that. But if I said, “Hey, I work with investors, I go out and knock doors and get deals.” That makes sense.

Brandon:
Yeah. I think you’re exactly right there. They’re going to read through your… if your line like, “Yo, I got hundreds of thousands dollars in here,” but if you’re honest, like, “I’ve got private lenders,” or, “I got partners, ” or, “I’m a piece of the deal,” they’re going to be like, “Oh, okay, great.” They want to solve their problems. So I don’t think they’re going to care as much. David, what do you think on that, the fake it till you make it versus be honest?

David:
I’m not a fan of fake it till you make it, I’m a fan of the truth well told. So you explain to somebody what you’re doing without ever lying, but that doesn’t mean you just poorly throw it out there. “Actually, I don’t have any money at all and I’m just praying that I can find someone that would buy your deal. And if they don’t, sorry, man, but I’m not going to buy it.” What really comes down to is how you communicate what you’re looking to do, honestly, which is what we talked about in today’s show. Marketing is your ability to communicate.

David:
And I think that is the secret. And you said something when we got done, that this isn’t talked about enough, but it’s probably the most important skill anybody can have in any business.

Brandon:
Yeah, I agree. And that’s actually the third thing I wanted to talk about here today, here at the ending, is just that idea of marketing, being a marketer. A lot of people might’ve heard Marie say that, and they’re just thinking, “Well, Marie has an online business. She teaches people how to do online business. That doesn’t apply to me.” Marketing is everything. Let me give you example of how I use marketing in my real estate at a big level and at a small level. I know the big level. But for example, so my fund, I have a real estate fund. We raise a lot of money, we buy mobile home parks. But if I just say, “I’ve got a fund,” I’m just like everybody else.

Brandon:
So I had to ask, “How do I communicate what my fund does better than other funds or other syndication projects? How do I communicate that better?” So I find ways to do that. I come up with new branding or new names or I find a special niche that I think we have a really unique angle at. When I think marketing from real estate, that’s what I’m talking about. The same thing could apply to, “Hey, I want to be a better marketer for my first duplex.” Okay. Well, what does that mean? If you decide you want to be the duplex person in Cincinnati. Great. So get really good at that. How do you market to people who own duplexes? Well, maybe that means going to like ListSource or going to a one of the other one, PropStream, and getting a list of all the duplexes in Cincinnati and then writing a letter.

Brandon:
What’s that letter going to say? That’s marketing. It’s, how do you communicate you’re the one that they should be talking to, that they should buy from or sell to? I mean, it’s really the same thing here. And that’s what a marketing is. So yeah, I think marketing and communication is just so under used and talked about in real estate because we just think of real… For some reason, we don’t think of real estate as a business, it’s crazy. It is a business, but why don’t we think of it that way?

David:
Because we call it investing.

Brandon:
Yeah. That’s great. It’s a label.

David:
When you’re buying stocks, you’re not really running a business, you’re just pushing a button. A lot of people take that stock mentality into real estate, by the way. Have you noticed that, that there’s a lot that get into it that think that the goal is to buy low and sell high, which is how you make money with stocks? It’s one way you make money with real estate, but it’s probably not even the biggest one.

Brandon:
That’s a really good point, David. I wrote that up for-

David:
I think that’s where the virus comes from, is that… And then that’s why people get frustrated with real estate too, because it’s not as easy as pushing a button to buy a stock. This comes up all the time, stocks or real estate. And I hate this argument because it’s always worded like which one will make you more money, but they’re not apples and apples. Stocks are a lot easier, there’s a lot less that you’re doing. You can get a lower return in stocks, and it still could make sense because you’re not doing all the work. Real estate has more work going into it.

David:
So that’s one of the reasons that you and I have been slowly, subtly working in business into real estate because we want people to start thinking of themselves as a business owner and identifying as a business owner instead of a passive investor.

Brandon:
Which is why we’re bringing on people like Ed Mylett and Marie Forleo, and these guests that are coming on the weekend shows because this is a trade. This is what you need to succeed long term at the business of real estate, is you need to understand these concepts. Kevin, what do you think on this whole idea of marketing? how do use this in your business or how do you see people using it correctly?

Kevin:
Well, first of all, I love bringing great marketers on the show because there’s this moment on the show where they say, okay, I have this concept that I like to call it, and I can see Brandon and his face starting to get jealous, because he didn’t think of that. And that happened with Marie today, Brandon goes, “Everything is figureoutable.” I love this concept,” but I can see the jealousy on his face. He wanted to get to these phrases first. think once you turn on this, we talk about the reticular activating system and how if you’re looking to buy a truck, you see trucks everywhere.

Kevin:
I think once you turn this on, you will see it everywhere with any kind of marketing. I was walking to the mailbox the other day, and I saw a truck with a contractor and it said the basement guy, and it just had a picture of his face. That was all. There was no fancy branding or anything like that, but it was like, “He’s the basement guy.” And now in my mind, he has associated himself with basements and all the properties out here in DC with basements. And he probably deals with moisture and probably does pretty dang well for himself with his little business out of his F-150. So I think once you start noticing that marketing stuff, like on the Business Podcast, BiggerPockets Business Podcast, and number three, we had Brent Underwood, who’s fantastic marketer. Brandon, you’re friends with him.

Brandon:
Probably one of the best marketers on the planet.

Kevin:
He’s awesome. And he does little things, he has a hostel that he runs in Austin, but I guarantee you, he asked himself, how can we be different from all the other hostels in Austin? And he got a goat and the goat, you know, choose the grass on the property. And there’s probably all kinds of tax benefits and stuff that come with that. But also, everyone probably takes selfies with the goat that stays at his place and then post them online, and he’s Pikdo hostel guy. And so once you start seeing those things, you can think to yourself, okay, what can I do with my mailer? What can I do on my website that just sets me apart a little bit? I don’t have to completely reinvent the wheel, but how can I carve out something and be that go-to guy in my area?

Brandon:
Do you remember Tucker Mayor Hugh back the first time we had on the show, he had his dog, his mailer was like, whatever his dog’s name was, I don’t know, Chief or something like that. Chief Buys Houses. And it was like this big, massive, I think it was like, that was the postcard, was his dog.

Kevin:
And I think he even said that he would choose the areas of Portland where people are really into dogs and he would use that marketing there. And that’s just taking that extra step to think about, the person on the other side of that marketing piece, I’m spending two bucks on a piece, isn’t it worth spending a little time thinking what’s going to stand out to them and what’s going to stick in their mind because they’re not going to probably be ready to sell their house the first time they receive a letter?

David:
Yeah. That’s really good.

Brandon:
One thing I’ve been thinking about lately, I’m still trying to put a framework behind this and just talking through it, so I’ll talk through it with you guys real quick. I was talking to somebody who had a commodity-type business. I didn’t remember who the person was or what they were doing, but it was something like selling some product. And we were talking about like, how do you differentiate yourself to sell that? And real estate is very similar, there’s a lot of people trying to buy houses right now. We are a commodity business in a way in that, if I was a motivated seller, I could sell it to you or I could sell to David, I could sell to Kevin, I could sell to one of the listeners on the show.

Brandon:
Anybody could solve my problem probably just like if I was going to buy a toothbrush, there’s 100 companies that can sell my toothbrush. So how do you differentiate yourself? And I came up with a couple of thoughts. One, think of Bulletproof Coffee. So Bulletproof Coffee is an example of marketing in which… If you’re not familiar, Bulletproof, Bulletproof is a type of coffee where you add coffee with grass-fed butter, M with MCT oil or MTC oil, whatever it is the oil, it’s basically coconut-type oil. And then there’s something else you do to it.

Brandon:
Anyway, the point being, it’s just like a formula of three things you add to your coffee, it’s supposed to make you more awake and aware, it’s got more fat content with the butter, but Bulletproof was like the guy, Dave Asprey, I think was his name. He basically created this new thing, which was like coffee with fat in it. Then he labels it as Bulletproof Coffee as a thing. And then who are you going to buy your coffee through? Well, I’m going to buy it through Bulletproof Coffee company. In other words, he created a category, and this is what I’m getting at with this, is he created a brand new category and then happened to fulfill that category.

Brandon:
That’s one really good way of marketing. I did that in a way with my fund is we created a cash growth fund. It’s a growth that, I don’t need to go into it, but basically we created a brand new type of real estate fund, and then I’m the only guy that does that. Now, in reality, yes, there was a spin to it, and yes, there’s other funds that are great, but our unique thing, that’s what created the category. But another way to do it would be like TOMS Shoes. So what did TOMS do? TOMS buy a pair of shoes, they give a pair of shoes to somebody in need, in a country where they don’t have shoes.

Brandon:
In other words, shoes is your commodity, you can buy shoes from anybody, they’re all over. You can go to Walmart, Target and buy shoes, why would you buy from TOMS? Because now you’re doing something good, people want to do good for the world. So that’s another way that you can differentiate your product is by, how can you make them feel better? It’s like the Simon Sinek, Start With Why. They don’t want to buy what you have, they want to buy why you have it. I’ve heard that phrase before. And then sometimes it’s just the cheapest option, can you give people the best deal ever?

Brandon:
Some people are really good at like, this is just either a superior product or the cheapest product. So really, there’s four things in this framework. The best product you’re offering, so you can offer a seller the best price, or you can sell a house that’s better than every other house in the market. There’s the cheapest option, I can give a better deal than anything else, I can… whatever that is on offer for buying a property. And then there’s the category section, being a category, you create your own. And then there’s, I don’t know, whatever I just mentioned, whatever it is. Those are the four of how to differentiate yourself. Anyway, this is the thought that’s been in my head. I’ve been trying to put that into a framework. What do you think on that?

David:
I think this is why you’re the best marketer, you just came up with all of that on the fly.

Brandon:
Well, thanks. It’s been in my head for a long time, much longer than it should have. So thank you.

David:
But yeah, you’re absolutely right. You do have to differentiate yourself, but I probably want to highlight, it doesn’t have to be something radical. It doesn’t have to be on the goat person. I think I did that with my real estate team by saying, we are real estate agents that think like investors. So we approach this from a perspective of, I am protecting your income and helping me build you wealth through real estate, which was different than, I’m the local blank expert, or I hold your hand better than everyone else. We said, “No, what we’re good at doing is making you money through real estate. That’s what we’re going to help with.”

David:
And then I built a team around that because that’s what the needs-

Brandon:
But what you did there, and you may not even know that you did it, you implied everyone else, all those other agents out there, they are not going to make you money.

David:
Well, that’s exactly right. And they’re not.

Brandon:
We’re going to make you money., we’re the only ones that can make you money. And I would even say that that fits in the category. I think we are a category that’s unique in this area and that we are investor agents that understand investing. And as a category, you need a name for it. Like we are green investors, and investors who understand-

David:
Much of greenies.

Brandon:
Much of greenies. Yeah. You put a name to it, now you’re Bulletproof Coffee, you invented a brand new thing. And not that you’re the only one in the world doing it, but to the client that you’re talking with, you’re the only one.

David:
In my world, I’m probably the only one.

Brandon:
In your world, you’re the only one.

David:
That’s the secret. When someone wants to sell their house, I’m saying, “Listen, we’re going to do it this way, because this is going to get net you the very most you could possibly get. I’m not going to be the cheapest one, I’m going to be the best one.” But in that world, I’m the basement guy for those people. And that’s really what you have to do to be successful at whatever business that you’re starting, is your sphere of people, those that follow you, those that know you, have to see you as Boardwalk and Park Place on the monopoly board. You own the real estate of that thing that they’re looking at.

David:
And what Kevin is getting is, he’s trying to figure out, “Well, I want to buy houses in Washington DC, how do I differentiate myself from the other buyers?” He’s starting that process of going down that road. And Kevin, at a certain point, you’re going to hit it, you’re going to pick up traction and boom, you’re going to be picking up lots of properties.

Kevin:
And I think it’s such a good point that it doesn’t have to be extreme thing. It doesn’t have to be, “We’ll buy your house and we’ll donate to this charity, like ARMS, like TOMS. TOMS was a radical idea, but I’ve thought of a couple of subtle ones, which like, I know David, a lot of times, if you’re choosing between giving someone, there’s a seller, and they’ve named their price and you’re representing your client, and you’re either going to give the full price offer and write that offer, but then you’re going to ask for some concessions and closing, like help with closing costs. That seller feels so much better about selling you their house at the full price and getting that full price from you than doing it the other way around. Let me undercut you by 5,000 and then pay the full closing costs.

Kevin:
I think that’s interesting to think about when you’re dealing with directly with homeowners too, is like, there’s a guy named Jerry Green, I think he’s in Ohio, and I heard him on a podcast. He talked about how he always would do the standard thing of set an appointment, go to the appointment and walk through the house, point out things that might be wrong with the house, then give an offer. Then he switched it and starting giving an offer on the phone, and then sending a professional inspector to the house afterward. And I think it’s just a psychological thing with sellers where they liked that surety of having the offer over the phone, even if later, you’re going to ask them for some concessions on the price, because you didn’t see it.

Kevin:
And so I think for him, that was a small thing that exploded his business. I’m not saying it’s going to work in every market, it might not work in my market, but it’s basically the same steps just in different order.

Brandon:
My brother recently was talking to me because he got a real estate license now, he’s talking about becoming an agent. And he was saying like, “How do I though differentiate myself because I don’t have any experience. I’ve never done any deals.” I’m curious of your answer on this one. And this does apply to real investors as well, so keep listening if you don’t care about agency. But he said, “How do I differentiate myself?” And I said, “Well, you don’t have the experience, you can’t pull that card, like I’m the most experienced agents, so what can you do?”

Brandon:
Well, if you don’t have any clients right now, it means you got 24 hours a day that you can serve those people. So I was like, I would honestly make a guarantee and brand it with something, it’s called the 10-minute guarantee. I will return your phone call in 10 minutes, 24/7 guaranteed. Or I’m going to pay you $100 gift card to whatever restaurant you want, or something like that. Like I guarantee you because, what’s one of the biggest frustrations people have with agents? Is I can’t get a hold of my agent time. But if you’re 24/7, test me, you call me at 3:00 in the morning and I don’t care, I will return your call in 10 minutes or less guaranteed, or I’ll give you $100.

Brandon:
And that, would make me want to work with an agent, I’d be like, “Oh yeah, he owns the category of that.” That’s a special thing, no one else has ever done. And so if you don’t have the experience in a business you’re going to start, what do you have? Your lack of experience you can make up for in the amount of time, and if you promise and guarantee like that, that will mean the world to a lot of people.

David:
Especially to those who have dealt with frustration that people aren’t calling them back. Someone like me that might not expect you to, that wouldn’t go that really far. But if you’re like, “I’ve been pushing this square peg in this round hole, they won’t answer their phone. I’m so sick of it.” When you see that, boom, it’s going to draw you right there.

Brandon:
Not that he would do this, but imagine getting a billboard on the highway, it just says, “We guarantee to call you back in 10 minutes or less, or we’ll pay you $100.”

David:
The responsive realtor.

Brandon:
The responsive realtor. And you put that on the thing, guaranteed call back in 10 minutes, or we can show you any home in 30 seconds or 30 minutes or less, or whatever that thing is. 90% of people won’t care about that they haven’t had that pain point of struggling with an agent who won’t call them back, but thousands of people in an area have had that pain point, so you can become the basement guy to those people. And that’s how you market to those people. And so whether it’s real estate, you’re investing, you’re building a business, you’re an appraiser, it doesn’t matter, what can you do that set yourself out? And then how you show that, is what really Marie was getting at with marketing. So we can do a whole show on marketing. This is cool.

Kevin:
The next level is you can even back into, what are those things that are frustrating my client? And you can go on BiggerPockets forums and type in agent frustrated or something like that, and see what people are saying, and then tune into those. Find whatever forum, and use that exact language. Are you tired of your agent never picking up your calls?

Brandon:
There’s this guy named Dane something or another, I can’t remember, I heard him on the Smart, Passive Income Podcast like 10 years ago probably, he did an episode with Pat. He had a thing called The Foundation. I don’t even think it exists anymore, but their whole model of building online businesses was to go to an industry and then just dig… Now, you don’t have to be in the industry, but just dig in, what’s your problem? What’s your problem? What’s your problem? And you find what their problem is. For example, you go to the dental world and you go and talk to dental hygienists and say, “What is your problem?” You really dig and interview a dozen of them or two dozen of them and really find out what they’re struggling with. And then you go create a product just for them.

Brandon:
And then that idea is like you’re solving a problem. And I always loved that. That was one of the better podcasts I think I’ve ever listened to because it was so like, “Yes, this is so good.” So how it applies to real estate, I would say, what are the problems that if you’re trying to buy from a motivated seller, what are the problems they have? What are the things that they get frustrated with? For example, in mobile home parks right now, the biggest problem that sellers have is people not being able to get financing. Okay, So we just offer them all cash. We raise enough money that we can offer all cash and then we just BRRRR the properties.

Brandon:
We immediately go and refinance them with the lender after we buy them. But we are offering all cash on properties because that is one way that we stand out, because that was a problem, we just kept hearing over and over was that because of COVID, all these sellers were getting jerked around because they thought they could close and they really couldn’t. So anyway, again, asking what’s the problem that your customers are having, or that potential customer is having is just such good business.

David:
If I could boil down what is an entrepreneur, it’s a professional problem solver. I’ll just give you a couple of examples. I found out last week, the mortgage company I started has been in business for about six months now, we’re in the top 100 loan originators in the country in our six month of business.

Brandon:
That’s crazy.

David:
And if you probably went, what’s the question you’re wondering?

Brandon:
How did you do that?

David:
How did you do that? I asked every loan officer I knew, what slows you down? What’s your biggest problem? What would you guess that they said?

Brandon:
Paperwork?

David:
Yeah, really close. It’s collecting documentation from the borrowers who don’t want to do it. Then I went to borrowers and I said, “What’s the worst part loan process? Having to give all my paperwork, having to take the time to do all this stuff when I don’t know if I’m getting an answer. Then I went to people and I said, “Hey, you’re a loan officer, what is your biggest struggle as a new one?” I don’t have anyone to teach me what to do, I have to figure this out on my own. And I just came up with a system that solved all three of those problems.

David:
We are going to take junior loan officers, they are extending to get license where they are licensed, teach them ways to successfully get documentation from the borrower by communicating very clearly why it’s so important and making it easier. By doing that, they made themselves very valuable, they got a job, they supported the senior loan officer who knew what to do once they had the paperwork. That one little solution that I came up with that fixed all three people, boom, the pipeline flooded. And I’m just using this as an example that this is how every single business owner should approach every single thing that they have. What’s your problem? I don’t have enough people coming to me asking me to fix up their basement.

David:
Okay. Do you think people know that you do basements? No. Why don’t you brand your F-150 with basement guy? Now, he’s going to have another problem. I’m growing too fast, I need people to work with me. Well, how are we going to solve that problem? There’s people that need to work that needs to learn the business, they don’t know it yet, come up with an apprenticeship model. That’s all entrepreneurs are doing. And real estate is a form of that. And we’re just giving these examples so other people can take what I did, apply it to their situation, play to their scenario and understand and be grateful for problems. That’s what creates opportunity.

David:
Entrepreneurs solve problems. When you throw the thing across the room like Rosie did, go pick it up and look at it from a different angle and say, “How do I solve this problem?” As opposed to, “I don’t want to deal with problems, how do I make money without it?”

Brandon:
Kevin, any thoughts on that?

Kevin:
Last closing thought here, which is a good one for real estate investors. I lost out on a huge deal to one other person, and price was not the problem. And I wound up finding out from the seller what the difference was, which is a great thing to do, super painful to do. And I was aware of both problems that she had, but I just didn’t come up with a good solution to solve them, whereas the guy who beat me out, put in addendum to the contract saying two things, number one, I’ll pay for your moving services with a local company. That’s an easy one that I just overlooked. That was her one pain point. The other pain point was she had to talk to one more person, which is a classic thing, “Hey, I’m ready with this price, but I just need to run it by my step-mom.”

Kevin:
She had to do that. For me, I said, “Okay, cool. Let’s talk tomorrow.” For him, he said, “Let’s sign this contract, you can cancel the contract in 48 hours if you want to, for any reason whatsoever.” And what happened is, he got the signature on the paper, she must have checked with her and it was okay, and then there you go. So that’s just a perfect example in stark terms and a painful lesson of really seek out those problems and then think hard about, is there something that I don’t know how to do to solve that problem? And can I conjure that up in a moment?

Brandon:
That’s really good. That one tip probably is going to make a lot of people a lot of money, let’s get the contract signed, you can cancel in 48 hours. I love that, because people are much less likely to cancel. That’s why I like the whole free trial, just dollar free trial, just give us your credit card number. You can cancel within 30 days, not a big deal.

David:
So true. You know who else uses this technique very well?

Brandon:
Who is that?

David:
You when you’re writing. You are a better writer than me, because I just give people information.

Brandon:
I’m not sure, but thanks.

David:
You pull them in by giving one sentence at a time that creates more and more interest. You get them committed to reading it and then they actually read it and you do more good for people because the spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. Whereas mine is so dry I don’t think people read my concept as much as yours. This is an example, this principle works in many, many different things. I can see, you want to get somebody into working out, going to the gym more often, “Hey, just come with me, spot me when we’re here.”

David:
You want to get somebody into Jujutsu? Hey, let’s just like wrestle around for 10 minutes. I’ll just show you some easy stuff. You get them at committing to tiny little pieces and move them forward.

Brandon:
I know they call this the puppy dog close in negotiations, I’ve read that in a couple of different negotiation books, because the pet shop close… Anyway, the idea of being you’re at pet shop and they’re like, “Just take the dog home for the weekend, just bring them back on Monday if you’re not into it, not a big deal.” No one brings the puppy back in on Monday, you don’t do that. That’s not a thing. What sits in your house to fall in love with it? So the more you can get people like, take the puppy home for the weekend, the significantly higher chance you have of getting them to convert to whatever it is you’re trying to do, whether they’re trying to buy a property, sell a property, whatever.

Brandon:
That’s good, Kevin. Look at Kevin bringing gold today.

Kevin:
We’ll have to get back at Mitchell, I’ll grill him on the show.

Brandon:
Yeah, there you go. You have the guy who beat you out. Love it. All right, guys. Well, this has been a fun wrap up, and it has been really cool. So thank you for joining us, Kevin. We’ll have to do this more often. I like you joining us.

Kevin:
Thank you. Can I take us out.

Brandon:
Please do.

Kevin:
For Brandon and Turner and David Green. Oh, I screwed it up. Leave that in there. Leave that in there.

Outro:
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