Wholesaler · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 39 votes
I have a turn-key rental with Mack Companies in suburban Chicago that has been vacant for FOUR MONTHS!
A small sample of my issues with the management:
Finding out a tenant has moved out weeks after the fact. When the monthly statement came it showed a big fat 0 for rent. No communication. How hard is it to send a one sentence email that the tenant moved out?
Rent lowered by hundreds of dollars on a re-lease without a discussion or heads up.
Two months into vacancy I still don't have a tenant due to things like "it's a busy time of year". Really? You didn't factor in summer as a busy time of year in Chicago? Like this is different than any other summer?
Two months into vacancy I'm then told the unit needs a refresh. Really? It took two months to figure that out? Shouldn't I have a list of needed repairs within a week of tenant moving out? I'm told the reason for the delay is the property "fell in a crack". In other words mis-managed.
Three months into vacancy I'm told "The timeliness of placing a tenant is affected by the change in market demand compounded with the specific location and property style. Well I'm pretty sure the location and property style hasn't changed.
Getting nowhere with the manager, At 3 1/2 months vacant I ask for a higher up manager who says my unit "has had a series of bad luck and unfortunately that may be the case with some real estate - remember, it is an investment not an annuity." Also he is "hoping to have a solution by Friday." I'm not holding my breath.
6 grand in lost rent and counting....
I've lost all faith in Mack Companies, buyer beware.
Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y
@Account Closed Did you read the initial post by this investor? I don't understand how anyone would come on to BP and suggest the comments that his PM said to him or the results he got were in the least bit acceptable.
Bottom line is that in this market there is no way a house should be sitting vacant for four and a half months. If you have 250 employees and can't manage them all, then maybe you should cut back on your employees and find a number that you can manage.
But suggesting there are a lot of moving parts when a company like yours has over 250 employees is awful. If you don't have something in your system that catches a vacancy before it hits 4 months, then something is wrong with your system.
And your response that you are the biggest company and longest tenured company means NOTHING in terms of whether you're providing good service today or not. Maybe you just happen to have the best sales people.
What in the world does the housing crash have to do with that investor's 4.5 month vacancy? Or lowering the rent without getting his approval? Is that the type of contracts you guys do? You have the ability to change the rent to any amount without an approval and at an time you choose? Jeepers....... Not exactly investor friendly if you do....
Ultimately, thats what you should have addressed on your post. Either dispute the claims he made in terms of his results or apologize for your company's awful service. Don't make lame excuses and tell us how big you are and how many employees you have and how the crash affected people. That has absolutely nothing to do with the service you've been paid to provide.
Maybe you're used to selling sheep the "spiel". But when you come on here, you're going to get called out for nonsense like that. To me, you shouldn't have said a thing on here unless it was to dispute his initial claims OR to apologize and make it right. But you did neither. At the end of the day, that is what speaks volumes to me.....
Orland Park, IL · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 1 vote
10y
you're not the only one. I had 11 units with Mack and lost thousands with him. And we used to be friends from high school. The lies and stealing from mack almost put me in foreclosure. I finally got out and have almost recovered. They tell you they fix things but don't and will charge you still. And hope you never get mold in the house because they just paint over it. They are the worst. Drive to the house and talk to the tenants. They are being federally investigated and you should leave asap. They told me they were no longer using section 8 because they have huge waiting list but I found out section 8 will no longer rent to them. You better check your real estate tax bill because now they have screwed all their investors by filing homeowners exemption without your consent. Now cook county is going after them for millions and also going after my houses.
Also, I have been doing rehab on my own. Ever town I go into I ask about mack and all the inspectors about mack and they all have issues.
Real Estate Broker · Chicago - New Lenox, IL · Member since 2014 · 41 posts · 15 votes
10y
I'm a Chicago and Southside investor (Landlord, flipper, broker, turn-keyer) and I'm familiar with Mack, but not as a customer strictly as an observer. They certainly have invested in areas where there is strong rental demand and a ready supply of homes. The rental areas of Cook County really require a expert level of experience in dealing with tenants, municipal issues and inspectors, evictions, block by block variances, section 8 rules, tax appeals, etc. They seem to have a sign in every city around so I would make the assumption they know how to navigate.
That said, SFH market rents vary greatly from city to city or within blocks sometimes in Cook County. There are a few cities in Southern Cook County with really high effective tax rates, Park Forest, Dolton, etc. Many cities have huge debts that nobody has a vision yet on how to resolve so be conservative (or negative) on appreciation.
I'd be happy to offer my opinion on a deal or proposal.
Professional · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 6 votes
10y
Hello BiggerPockets Community!
@Account Closed - You should be careful as to what you say because what you're saying is not accurate. Actually, it's quite false.
Mack Companies has been around for 20 years supplying armchair investments to worldwide investors alike. We have some investors who own 1 property and others who are in double and triple digits. That being said, there is no guarantee in real estate however our firm does a magnificent job of maneuvering the waters - heck, we've got over 1,800 homes under management and successfully rehab 40 homes per month. Everyone's experience will be different depending on when they've bough and unfortunately we have no control over the market. The crash of '07/'08 affected everyone, even our investors who bought whom tried to sell shortly after. The investors who bough and are still holding the assets have experienced great cash-flow with an increase in rental rates coupled with a more stabilized price within the market.
Illinois is a very difficult state to work in and there's not a company out there that does more volume than ours. We are the longest tenured turnkey operator out there! Should any of you have any specific questions, feel free to private message me.
Orland Park, IL · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 1 vote
10y
John, I get it. You are defending your boss. You know how much he took from me. And now Cook County is going after him. Don't deny it. Additionally, I heard the Feds are looking into MACK as well. I do not have a verified source but I have heard that in the Cook County offices. If anyone wants to know more about Mack, just go to any of the southeast municipal offices and ask the building department. You will get your answers. I know from experience what he did to me and others. In addition to the large sums of money he owes/took from me, he left several of my house vacant and untouched months, HUGE water and mold issues, tenants that did not pay, etc.. I will say that I heard he does go after dead-beat tenants, but I have NEVER seen any of that money. Turnover for me was a year on average. He kept all of my security deposits. In addition, I received numerous letters from cook county assessor saying I owe for EHE (look it up). John, you want to deny that CC is going after him?
Someone sent me a published doc United States Court of Appeals Tenth Circuit from 1997. Ask Mr. Mack if he know who "Appellee" is.
I am very disgruntled, No question about it. It put me and my family in a huge financial deficit. In my opinion, MACK Companies should be embarrassed for what they did to me and others that I know. God is watching...
Professional · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 6 votes
10y
All -
MACK Companies is very proud of the business it's grown to in the 20 years since inception - we honor each and every investor that works with us (roughly 300 and counting!). Whether you've bought 1 or 100 homes from us, we encourage you to speak directly with us about any issues you're having as ALL concerns matter to us regardless of size. Keep in mind, there are a lot of moving parts when your company employees over 250 people so be patient and always remember, we're not just partners but FAMILY. Unfortunately the posts above were not whole truths and because of that, the publisher has closed his account.
Property Manager · Mokena, IL · Member since 2015 · 157 posts · 10 votes
10y
Hi Jim,
Sorry to hear of your loss. I have over 40 doors in the same areas. I would be upset as well. If there is something I can do to help you please let me know.
Property Manager · Mokena, IL · Member since 2015 · 157 posts · 10 votes
10y
Hi Jim,
I manage my own properties in house. I must say Mack does have excellent systems and teams in place. They have an excellent reputation for what they do and a leader in this industry.
Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y
@Account Closed Did you read the initial post by this investor? I don't understand how anyone would come on to BP and suggest the comments that his PM said to him or the results he got were in the least bit acceptable.
Bottom line is that in this market there is no way a house should be sitting vacant for four and a half months. If you have 250 employees and can't manage them all, then maybe you should cut back on your employees and find a number that you can manage.
But suggesting there are a lot of moving parts when a company like yours has over 250 employees is awful. If you don't have something in your system that catches a vacancy before it hits 4 months, then something is wrong with your system.
And your response that you are the biggest company and longest tenured company means NOTHING in terms of whether you're providing good service today or not. Maybe you just happen to have the best sales people.
What in the world does the housing crash have to do with that investor's 4.5 month vacancy? Or lowering the rent without getting his approval? Is that the type of contracts you guys do? You have the ability to change the rent to any amount without an approval and at an time you choose? Jeepers....... Not exactly investor friendly if you do....
Ultimately, thats what you should have addressed on your post. Either dispute the claims he made in terms of his results or apologize for your company's awful service. Don't make lame excuses and tell us how big you are and how many employees you have and how the crash affected people. That has absolutely nothing to do with the service you've been paid to provide.
Maybe you're used to selling sheep the "spiel". But when you come on here, you're going to get called out for nonsense like that. To me, you shouldn't have said a thing on here unless it was to dispute his initial claims OR to apologize and make it right. But you did neither. At the end of the day, that is what speaks volumes to me.....
All due respect, you are not accurate in your depiction of my responses. My response was not to @Jim Tiernan, it was to the user that closed their account who mentioned disparaging remarks that were not accurate. He had purchased homes NOT from MACK and asked MACK to manage them (something we no longer do). He then refused our advice on what the requirement was to fix the problem (full drain tile) because of the cost associated - again we didn't construct the homes, someone else did!
As far as our relationship with Jim goes - he is free to use any PM company he chooses but I can assure you, his portfolio has positively cash-flowed overall from inception - Jim, if I've wrong correct me. Out of the goodness of our MACK standard (treating all like family), we decided to help absorb some of the pain by crediting him two months of rent - again, not something that was required but something we felt would show we cared. We care deeply for ALL of our investors hence it is incredibly rare to see anyone say bad things about us given our size. Jim - if you feel I've misrepresented the situation, please let us know but I think we are in a good place although not perhaps where you'd like to be. We are not in control of rents and with the mass buying of assets from multiple vendors, there's more choice and more choice drives down the pricing. Another factor is the level of finish - each year we better the standard of finish based on the market demands (i.e. formica to granite, white to black appliances, VCT to ceramic, etc.).
Mike - you do not know the exact issues that occurred with Jim's home unless you've spoken to him offline - as you may or may not know (I see you are from Illinois but I don't believe you live in Cook County which is where these homes exist) there are occupancy requirements and often times you are at the mercy of the municipalities for scheduling. Also, the desirability of rent is determined by the demand and the demand is of course decreased in winter months. What I'm getting at is there are numerous factors that come into account so settle down before you come in here and act like a know it all. I can assure you as the manger of 1800+ homes with a production schedule of 80 homes a month (40 that we buy and 40 that we sell), we know more about real estate management than you do - no offense. We would not be a leader in business for 20+ years if the model wasn't sustainable. Real estate is just that, real estate - although it is a tangible asset that are many variables that go into performance.
Again, in relationship to the housing crash - re-read my post. My comment was centered to the member who is no longer - his financial burden was due to the crash, not poor management on our part. He bought at the height of the market NOT from MACK and got lousy rehabs - NOT our MACK standard of redevelopment. Because of that, he was upside down.
Just to reiterate, we are a large company with many moving parts and that is a benefit to our investors. We are not mom and pop frickard learning as we go - we have specialist in every department that own their functions - tax attorneys to help appeal and contest tax hikes, move-in liaisons, monthly housing inspectors, municipality directors and the list goes on. These are ALL benefits to the investor.
I suggest you do your research before you open your mouth - it will save everyone a lot of effort on having to read and respond to uneducated claims.
Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y
@Account Closed I would say that wasn't clear to me. But that brings up another question. Why did you respond on this thread to the one guy but not the original poster. It seems to me, that the original poster was the one that needed the response.
And, no, I do not know anything that went on between the two of you other than what I read here. The fact that you didn't dispute a single Jim T said on his initial post led me to believe that what he posted was the fact.
When you posted on here to the account closed guy, why didn't you also post the refund that you gave John? Then we would have had a clear picture. If you don't like getting hammered, then speak to the original post which is all I was commenting on. I assumed you were speaking to his post as well.
In terms of knowing the areas. I live in Manteno. I own properties in Kankakee, Will and southern Cook County. So I can appreciate the comment bout more variables in terms of different village requirements but the fact remains 4 months of vacancy during a summer doesn't add up.
But the funny thing is that you did exactly what I suggested a good company should have done (figured out you provided poor service and given a refund). Had you shared that in your posts from the beginning, you wouldn't have taken the brunt of the point.
Ultimately, all we can do is comment on what we read and what we DON'T read. So if you want people to judge you based on all the facts, then don't leave the facts out of your comments. Had you not posted a couple of items on here at all, I would have been hesitant to say anything as I always assume there is another side of the story.
But you jumped on here and made several posts yet failed to mention a single word about a refund to Jim.
So was my post wrong? No. Was it misdirected based on what we know now. I would say yes.
I still don't think there's a reasonable excuse for a house sitting four months. Based on Jim's initial post back, that vacancy did not occur during the winter at all. Based on his post being 7 months ago, it would appear the vacancy occurred from April thru July roughly.
And that is, by far, the best time of year to fill a vacancy.
What I can say is that your representation suggests you guys are more about laying off the blame for your mistakes instead of owning them. Its funny that you take offense for someone calling you out for what is clearly poor service. Now had you bothered to address the initial poster's issues and shared that you had given a 2 month refund, then I would have definitely taken a different tack. But neither the poster nor yourself mentioned anything to us at all.
Both of you are asking us for opinions or to defend a position but expect us to do so without all the information?
I won't even begin to profess to know what a PM company goes thru. But when I see a 4 month vacancy, I'm going to say what I think about that level of service. And then you add on top of that the poster's comment that his rent was lowered without his knowledge or approval.
Its called agreeing to disagree. You feel that level of service was acceptable and are going to attack anyone that suggests it wasn't. I'm going to suggest it wasn't.
Clearly you guys are doing something right because you've convinced a ton of people to invest with you. But don't give me that as a reason of proof for what a great job you're doing. Just because you've convinced other people to do something with you, doesn't mean you're a great company.
I can rattle off a handful of huge companies that convinced people to invest with them and that lost their shirts. As they disclaimer in investing all the time.
"Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results......"
We're a humble company and since you are local, I suggest you come and visit us for a tour. You'll get the opportunity to meet face to face with Mr. MACK, our CEO and founder that was coined by the Wall Street Journal as the "Grandfather of REO to Rentals". This whole blogging is new for us as the majority of our business is achieved through word of mouth - I didn't want to get on here and broadcast anyones personal business as I did not think it was necessary.
Regarding the tour - you will see our operations are top notch and we always manage as if the investments are our own. Sometimes it's nice to see what others are doing who are local and in the same space...
We did have some issues with communication and because of that, we have invested in a 200K+ platform through propertyware which per @Jim Tiernanwill launch in two days. Since there are 26 different departments across 6 different companies under the MACK Companies umbrella, it took time to get it right. Owner's invoices will be auto populated versus manually drafted. Within the coming months, owner's will have their own portal and they can view documents online - we are incredibly excited about it as are our investors! As each year passes, we continue to grow stronger and stronger in our space and our truly known as a leader since we have been doing it the longest. I was by no means trying to offend you or anyone else on here as once you'll meet me you know I'm quite the opposite. I'm glad we were able to hash this out and I'm hoping we can one day meet as I've done with @Keith Andersonand many other great investors who had doubts about it being "too good to be true".
No, I didn't mention Mack crediting me 2 months of the six months vacancy. Because that hadn't happened yet as of my initial post. I did mention it in a later post.
Yes this has been extremely frustrating to say the least. The lowered rents (not communicated). The eviction that was going on for 6 months (not communicated). The vacancies (not communicated). How hard is it to send a one minute email letting the owner know what is going on? I should be netting $2500 a month once you factor in property management (which I pay wether vacant or not). I've hit $2500 ONCE in the last eleven months. The last 6 months I've averaged less than $70. So month after month I have been depositing money to pay the mortgages. Why? Because after months of vacancies, I found out the tenants on each property did thousands of dollars in damages. To the tune of almost $9000. So now I'm on the hook for those damages which I have been paying for months and months. And paid a bunch of legal costs to get judgements against those former tenants. Of course they are now unemployed so who knows if I will ever get that money back.
Definitely not the hands off turn key experience I was looking for.
If I could sell these properties for what I paid I would gladly do so.
Professional · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 6 votes
10y
@Jeff Corino - if you have any specific information requests about neighborhoods, we can provide them. We use the US Census to provide information on our grading scale. The Report Card was just updated to reflect 2015 information. We hope to hear from you!
Wholesaler · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 39 votes
10y
@Scott W. slightly better the last few months, although I had to remind them to send my monthly deposit this month as I didn't receive it. Didn't want to miss a mortgage payment.
I did tour their neighborhoods and their operations, and I'm actually closing on 2 properties with them today (just completed paperwork actually).
You definitely have to do your own analysis -- their pro formas are junk because of the $0 allowances for maintenance and vacancies.
But for my goals, they are still a good fit. Properties will cash flow $150-$250/mo. using my conservative assumptions, and they're in primarily owner-occupied neighborhoods, where I want to own.
I can't give you any feedback on the properties' performance, but I've been pleased with the process so far.
Hi Keith - just curious how things have been working out with your Mack properties that you mentioned in the earlier thread? Anything you can share about pros/cons of the turnkey route?
@Scott W. slightly better the last few months, although I had to remind them to send my monthly deposit this month as I didn't receive it. Didn't want to miss a mortgage payment.
Jim - for the record, we had an issue with ALL our ACH's that was out of our control. That said, we were not aware of who was sent payments and who was not. To be honest, it was a total cluster. But, for the record and all viewers on here can you please share how many times this has occurred in your nearly 4 years of doing business with us? I believe the answer will be one time.
Investor · Cambridge, MA · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 87 votes
10y
Rob M. It's really tough to say after only 6 months. No major issues, a few minor issues. I will say that after the initial diligence (which was significant), I have not had to actively manage much at all.
Call me in 2-5 years... That's about the earliest I expect to know what I'm really in to.