Help! 100 year old house. Need advice. Lead, Asbestos, etc.

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Help! 100 year old house. Need advice. Lead, Asbestos, etc.

Cameron Price
Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes

I need serious input! I just looked at a Historic house in my town that has been sitting vacant for over 30 years. The family finally put it on the market and are asking $80K. The realtor thinks they would take $40K or maybe even less. Several people have already looked at it, but it has overwhelmed everyone so far, myself included, but I'm considering making an offer on it. Its almost 3600 sf. 4 bed 3 bath build in 1911. It has water leaks in several places  that have caused extensive water damage. I'm pretty sure it is covered in lead based paint and probably has asbestos in it too. It would be a $360K house MINIMUM restored (decent houses in my town hang around $100/sf) . Realtor guessed $450K! Problem is, she also guessed $200K in repairs! Complete new electrical, plumbing, hvac required. Plaster is cracked on the ceilings. It has a crazy gutter system that was built into the overhang that has deteriorated and caused most of the water damage. 

The house is structurally SOLID from what I could tell. All rough cut lumber that appeared to be in great shape other than where the water damage has occurred. It has TONS of character and would be an amazing home when restored. 

I can start putting together some numbers of what it might cost to rennovate, but I have no idea where to start with lead based paint, mold remediation, and asbestos. Anybody have suggestions/ resources? RUN? lol. 

My current thoughts of what I could do to it:

Get some portion of it habitable, or move a camper on site, or rebuild carriage house on property... make it my primary residence.

Rennovate along the way.

Get it in decent shape and take out a HELOC on the property for a handsome sum.

Use heloc to finance pretty much any other flips I wanted to do.  I would have a large amount of money available whenever I needed it. 

I could rent out rooms to others if i wanted to, it's huge! It's directly across the street from a college as well. student housing, maybe? possibilities are endless. 

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Cindy Browning
Flipper · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 3 votes
10y

Cool house! The first thing I would look into is the mold. I just did a flip on a 900 sq ft house and to do mold remediation the right way, it cost $2,300 and you have a lot of sq footage. Asbestos aren't a problem unless you open them to natural air but considering you said the plaster on the ceiling is coming down means you'll need to scrape and there for need to worry about the asbestos.

 I wouldn't be worried about it being a big project as long as you keep in mind that ALL old homes have unforeseen problems. There will always be stuff behind the walls and under the house that you won't know about until you get into it. But don't let that stop you if you have the vision and drive to do it. Seems like a great investment if the numbers are correct!

Good luck! 

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  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    I want to respond to all the questions, but its been a crazy day!

     @Account Closed  I walked all through the house. Besides one room upstairs that looked like you'd fall through if you stepped inside, it was really solid. That is where the one BAD leak is... but is that such a big deal? What are a couple new joists? I dont see why you couldn't replace the water damages ones. Its just wood :) flooring in that room is ruined. Not sure what woud have to happen there. 

    I went under the house. It has a dug out cellar with an access door from inside. Everything underneath looked solid as well. I was impressed with the integrity of the home, even after sitting for so long. It must have been built RIGHT. 

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  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    talked with a possible investor tonight. Calling a local contractor tomorrow to see if i can get a quote on a turn key rennovation. 

    Also talked with a local bank and learned that this project could be financed with a construction loan if the apraised value in current condition supports the asking price, and the ARV is high enough to support the total investment. I fell pretty confident of both.

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  • Jim Adrian
    Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes
    10y

    I would think this is nearly a complete gut job, salvage out the trim work to install back over drywall.  You can use 1/4" drywall but you will run into problems at doors and windows.  You will want to redo the electrical.  Once the walls are opened up you will find there will be no insulation at the exterior walls which you will want to add.  Assume everything has lead paint.

    • Asbestos can be found in the following:
      • pipe insulation
      • duct work tape (it will be white)
      • vct and the adhesives (9x9 size not the 12x12)
      • blown-in insulation like the vermiculite
      • roof shingles (fish scale or diamond pattern)
      • popcorn textured ceilings

      • Good luck!  It looks cool but a lot of work. 

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Cameron Price:

    I want to respond to all the questions, but its been a crazy day!

     @Account Closed  I walked all through the house. Besides one room upstairs that looked like you'd fall through if you stepped inside, it was really solid. That is where the one BAD leak is... but is that such a big deal? What are a couple new joists? I dont see why you couldn't replace the water damages ones. Its just wood :) flooring in that room is ruined. Not sure what woud have to happen there. 

    I went under the house. It has a dug out cellar with an access door from inside. Everything underneath looked solid as well. I was impressed with the integrity of the home, even after sitting for so long. It must have been built RIGHT. 

    I'm assuming you are not an inspector.  "Looking solid" is not what you base the purchase of a major 3000+ square foot rehab on.  Get your inspections and listen to what they have to say.  Always take their estimates or ideas of cost with a grain of salt, that's not what most are good at.  What they are good at is looking for damage and many are good at recognizing potential code issues.  Best $500 you will ever spend.

    The listing on that property is hilarious.  It includes 3 black and white photos from the 1960s.  Way to sell it!

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  • Brandon Stevens
    Investor · Lexington, KY · Member since 2015 · 139 posts · 100 votes
    10y

    Well if nothing else, it will be a learning experience! I second @K. Marie P. , given the questions your asking, I'd say it's imperative you get a good inspector and structural engineer to look at the house prior to doing anything. The paint quote won't help you much if the tree trunks its built on give way. 

    To scrape and re-paint that siding the right way is going to cost you an arm and a leg, likely cheaper to replace with a product color of your choice. I'd say from looking at the few photos you could hit 200k pretty easily. 

    I do like Jeffs idea about student housing if it's that close to a college, doubt you could zone into a multi family but possible frat or sorority house? Obviously things you'd have to know before beginning rehab, maybe the school would be interested in purchasing it for something?

    GL what ever you do, it won't be easy, but hopefully rewarding. 

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Stevens:

    Well if nothing else, it will be a learning experience! I second @K. Marie P. , given the questions your asking, I'd say it's imperative you get a good inspector and structural engineer to look at the house prior to doing anything. The paint quote won't help you much if the tree trunks its built on give way. 

    To scrape and re-paint that siding the right way is going to cost you an arm and a leg, likely cheaper to replace with a product color of your choice. I'd say from looking at the few photos you could hit 200k pretty easily. 

    I do like Jeffs idea about student housing if it's that close to a college, doubt you could zone into a multi family but possible frat or sorority house? Obviously things you'd have to know before beginning rehab, maybe the school would be interested in purchasing it for something?

    GL what ever you do, it won't be easy, but hopefully rewarding. 

    The house is priced at $80K for a reason.  Even if the house was free it might not be a deal.  3500 square feet in that age home is SO much surface area.  The ceilings are higher, there are stairways and many architectural features to deal with. There may be a Hysterical Society or local muni regs that govern exterior rehab so that you can't just slap something over the existing siding.  

    I would love to do a house like that, but to end at a $350K ARV with all the money and time it would take doesn't look like an investment. More like an owner occupant sweat equity or vanity project.

    1Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    looks like i may have missed out on this....

    Realtor called and told me they have an offer on it.

    I tried to get a contractor out to the house to give me an estimate, but he left me hanging yesterday, and I couldn't get the guy to answer his phone today. I'm not sure if I should be mad or thankul... theres smething special about this house, but it is a MAJOR project with a lot of unknowns. We'll see how it all shakes out.

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  • Account Closed
    Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Cameron Price:

    looks like i may have missed out on this....

    Realtor called and told me they have an offer on it.

    I tried to get a contractor out to the house to give me an estimate, but he left me hanging yesterday, and I couldn't get the guy to answer his phone today. I'm not sure if I should be mad or thankul... theres smething special about this house, but it is a MAJOR project with a lot of unknowns. We'll see how it all shakes out.

    I think you should be thankful! No offense but you seem to lack the requisite experience to tackle a project of this complexity and magnitude. And even if you did have it, a 350K ARV is not high enough to reward all the associated risks and effort. I understand the temptation though! :)

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  • Derreck WellsPro Member
    Specialist · Pelham, NH · Member since 2013 · 544 posts · 269 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David O:

    You sound like a lawyer. With proper precautions it will be fine. Obviously, yes, follow all laws in your state and use common sense.

    Out of the three - The only thing I'd be worried about is asbestos furnace pipes and the like as they used to wrap them up in asbestos. Asbestos tile and stuff is no problem. Just encapsulate, don't disturb.

    Thank you David. 

    I'm assuming you meant that as a compliment and that you can't really think that calling someone intelligent would be an insult. If you did think that was an insult, I apologize to you for assuming you were intelligent. If that is the case, however, you can add "scientist", "doctor", "judge", and "college professor" to your list of insults. They'd achieve the same result.

    If the only thing you're worried about is the asbestos, then you're setting yourself up for failure. Unlike the OP's state, Michigan has it's own set of laws to compliment the Federal laws. There's also a database of homes in MI that have already been deleaded, which is a nice bit of info to have when making a purchase.

     http://www.michigan.gov/mdhhs/0,5885,7-339-71550_2955_2983-19420--,00.html

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  • Account Closed
    Real Estate Agent · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2014 · 493 posts · 200 votes
    10y

    Lead - All contractors and landlords must use lead safe work practices and be certified under the EPA's RRP rules to do work that disturbs lead-based painted surfaces on any home built before 1978.  (Of course, the flipping/landlord shows never tell you about that.)  Unless you're going to live in the home--the rule applies.  The State of Michigan duplicates the rules.  So, if you don't follow them, you're liable under Federal and State law for huge fines.  (And, no I'm not an attorney or contractor.) Some local communities add their own rules.  The biggest concern comes in if you're sued for a child getting lead poisoned in one of your homes.  If you're a landlord, this is even more of an issue.  Solution:  Only hire contractors certified and registered under the RRP rules and do the best you can to make sure they are following the correct work practices, documentation and clearance tests.  (I'd recommend taking the RRP course so you know what is supposed to happen.)  It doesn't matter until you get sued--then the fines of $10,000+ kick in per incident, per day (not to mention the civil fines for poisoning someone's child).

    Mold - There are no Federal or State laws in Michigan regarding this specifically.  Although, it is a very good idea to treat it and be sure to address any issues with the property that would contribute to the growth of mold.  (If there is mold, there are probably other issues.) Some local communities may have their own laws regarding mold.  It's hard to rent out or sell a home with mold or even the smell of mildew.

    Asbestos - There are certainly Federal and State laws regarding its removal--if necessary.  Sometimes, if it is not friable and can be contained in place, removal may not be necessary.  If you confirm that it needs removed, it's best to have it removed before you take possession, i.e. have the seller remediate the asbestos using a licensed contractor.  Once you have the all clear, you're good to go...proceed to close.  (Keep in mind that old floor tiles had asbestos in them as well.)  If you do the work yourself, you'll have no proof it was done the correct way or is clear of asbestos hazards.

    I know a lot of investors don't follow these requirements.  It's OK until it comes back to bite them in the future.  (Everyone here that is a landlord is also giving all their tenants in housing built before 1978 the EPA lead booklet and the EPA required disclosure form too--yes?)

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  • David Jacques
    Professional · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 93 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Cameron Price:

    it has hardwood floors throughout, so no asbestos on the floors. plaster walls inside. I guess the insulation on the pipes would be the main thing.

     That's the thing, these homes had asbestos in everything.  IMO doesn't look like the juice is worth the squeeze.

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