East Nashville Buy and Hold

East Nashville Buy and Hold

Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes

I've been looking at investment properties casually for about 4 years, and seriously for about 10 months. Boy, do I wish I'd had my ducks in a row for some of the deals I saw before I knew enough to know what a good deal was. But, regardless, now is the time when I'm financially and emotionally ready to jump in, and now is the time I have. 

Nashville's a crazy hot market, and East Nashville (where I live) is crazy even by Nashville standards. This particular place spoke to me because (1) it's on a half acre fenced in lot (much larger than most lots in this area), and (2) it's permitted with a basement apartment already in place. The basement apartment has no bathroom roughed in, and not much kitchen to speak of, so it'll need a complete remodel. The 2bd/2br home upstairs is in pretty good condition though. Not perfect -- it'll certainly need some new paint, drywall, and bathroom updating before it'll get top rental dollar, but I can do that myself. 


So, the place was listed for 176k, reduced to 160k, and sat there for two months (in a market where pocket listings often come on the MLS already under contract, and most stuff lasts barely a week). I offered 135k and closing split equally between buyer and seller. They countered 153k, and I told them my highest offer was 145k and they cover all closing costs. My realtor just texted me, and they accepted! So the place is under contract.

Next step(s) is to set up inspection on the place, with the anticipation of them having to give me money to repair some inspection issues (they had a previous contract fall through after inspection, so I know stuff will turn up). To get my financing in order, I'll also have to have an appraisal ordered on my existing house, and get my (currently month to month) roommates to sign a lease. I'm not sure how much anyone in interested in the nitty gritty of the financing, but it's below.

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I have two conventionalfinancing options: investor financing, or owner occupant financing. Investor financing requires 20-25% down, has slightly higher rates, but I don't have to occupy the property ever. OOF requires less down (but with PMI), lower rates, and I have to occupy the property for 1 year*.

Since I don't have 20% down for this particular property, I went with OOF. I'm planning on 10% down, which means I'll have PMI until I can refi or build enough equity through payments. In order to qualify for the amount of money I'm being loaned, it's important that my current house NOT be listed as a debt. Since it hasn't had 2 years of rental income history, I can't call it an investment yet. The other option is if I have a signed lease for the person living there AND 30% equity in the house, they don't have to count it as a debt and include that mortgage payment in my debt to income ratio.

Translation: my roommates have to sign a lease, and I have to have a new appraisal done on my house, with the hopes that my improvements and the general appreciation in all of East Nashville (plus my 20% equity from my downpayment) will get me to 30% equity by the time we close. I'm hopeful the appraisal will tell me what I think, which is that my house is worth quite a bit more than I paid, and won't hold up financing on the new place.

**or, at least, I have to say I plan to, according to two different lenders I spoke to.

---------------------------

So it's under contract, and I'm working on financing, appraisals, and inspection.

I'll post the numbers in the next post.

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Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y

Yes you take the rate up to absorb the MI premium (single/one time) or you pay it with cash at closing to avoid monthly MI pretty simply speaking.

Experiences with single premium:

- usually I get my buyers agent to negotiate this from the seller or we raise the price then ask back the same amount of concession - request to raise price from 200k to 206k then ask back 6k - net difference to seller is $0 - but now you've in effect financed 6k extra to avoid 225 a month in monthly MI (approx).

6k financed is about 55 dollars a month with 30 year fixed approx 4.25-4.50% so you in effect gain an arbitrage of 225 monthly MI - 55 = 170 dollars higher cash flow or less out of pocket per month

Since the tenant will eventually pay your mortgage anyway this debt is delegated to the tenant.

Single premium MI helps you increase your cash on cash return by lowering the perceived expense of putting less down payment in fear of paying monthly MI. Single premium curbs the effective cost of financing a property with little down payment.

Sound good?

Lots of other ways you can structure the MI too the above is just one way i've worked with agents to negotiate these purchase sale agreements - PSA.

Another way is to absorb the entire single premium through the rate so instead of taking a 4.125% you could take a 4.375 or 4.50% and not have to raise the sales price, pay cash, or rely on the seller concessions to absorb your cost.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    From my property evaluation spreadsheet, here are the numbers on this place. 

    I'm guesstimating rehab on the basement (the plan right now, subject to change, is to get it livable and freshly painted, and rent it quickly, then in a year or two fix it up further), but have cash reserves if I need to come out of pocket further on it. Or wait a few months.

    It's also difficult to get rental comps, because the area is so hot. I'm seeing people rent 2/2s for $2k, and also down to $800 (usually only that low if they're duplexes or totally busted places). I think I could comfortably ask $1100, though. And $450 on the 1bd/1br walk out basement is a pretty smoking deal, truthfully, but I downgraded it a bit because, well, basement apartments can be weird. 

    Yes, I know my expenses look low. There aren't any owner-carried utilities, and I got my tax info from the county website. I live a half mile away, so I'm gonna self manage at least to start. If I need to go to a PM at some point, I should have enough equity to drop the mortgage insurance (which eats up a lot of my profit at first). I also enjoy fixing things, so I expect my maintenance expenses can be fairly low. Again, we'll see. I'm new to this, so there's much to learn.

    But the market has been so strong the past 5 years that even though I'm not betting on appreciation, I expect any mistakes I make here will be somewhat mitigated by it.

  • Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2009 · 483 posts · 228 votes
    11y

    It took me a minute to read through all of that. It looks great so far so keep us posted on what happens. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    At the end of the day, you seem to be looking at a decent deal. 
    Ultimately, your gross profit (Rent minus PITI) is $550 a month. You should
    make money on that kind of gross profit.

    The only concern I'd have with it is the management effort. I'm not sure how easy it is to keep a basement unit rented. And I'm guessing that the home is going to be more difficult to keep rented as well - given that some people may not like having someone living in their basement.  You did seem to account for a 10% vacancy though (vs the standard 5%) so it looks like you're accounting for that which is good.

    Aside from that though, I think its a solid deal given the gross profit. And its the type of house that has some appreciation potential as well based on your description of the area.  Well done.

    One thing I would ask though before I would say whether it was a good deal or not is what is the house going to be worth once the rehab is complete? A good deal, to me, has two factors - rental profit and equity capture/LTV. I want to know I'm hitting both of those things before I pull the trigger on a deal.

    And sometimes, you give up one to get more of the other and thats ok too.

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    Yeah, @Mike H., you raise good points. This is my first real world entry into landlording, so as the rubber meets the road I'll learn some of this stuff I've only read about so far. I follow the neighborhood facebook group (~10k members, really active) closely, and I see demand for studio and 1bdrm apts, so a daylight/walkout basement should rent pretty well, I'm thinking. I'll leave it vacant for a few months if that's what it takes to get it fixed up really nicely, because there's a big difference between nice basement apt and sketchy basement apt.

    As far as the rehab goes, I'm not a flipper, but I suspect that with ~2k in paint, drywall, flooring, and a new bathroom vanity I could flip this for 20k profit. But I don't have a well-defined rehab scope at this point, nor an ARV. The area is crazy, but I'm really hoping for a long term buy and hold. If I need to get out of it I'm pretty positive I can just from updating some finishes and cleaning the junk out of the front yard.

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    So, got the inspection report back yesterday. It was mostly good news, with nothing on there I didn't expect except that the water pressure is really bad, as are the drains, because of the galvanized pipes original to the house. Trying to get quotes from a few plumbers to repipe the house, and I'll use that to ask for a seller concession.

    Also spoke with a local PM who's also an investor, and he recommended I NOT renovate the basement and rent it as a separate 1bdrm walkout. In his experience, I might make an extra 1-200 bucks a month, but with a much larger cash outlay and much higher level of annoyance and upkeep (extra kitchenette, bathroom, not separately metered, noise from one level to the other, etc). I don't know that I can argue with him, so I'm considering renting it as a 3/2 instead of a top/bottom 2/2 and 1/1 (after major reno). The numbers still work, and it doesn't preclude me splitting it in a year or two.

  • Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 491 votes
    11y

    Wishing you the best!  Can't wait to find out how this turns out for you!

  • Frederick, MD · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    ALWAYS budget for management!!!! I can tell you right now, every landlord I know has needed management at sometime or another for whatever reason (save one - and that's because he uses his son.) Most of the beginners I've known tell me that management gets really old after 5 years and/or when you have more than a handful of properties. It may be fine now, but what if you have 10 houses down the road and you're fielding calls every day, dealing with evictions, finding contractors, screening tenants etc etc.? Landlording can easily turn into a full time job, which defeats the purpose of being one imho. Just something to think about.

  • Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    It sounds like you mentioned you had a current home that you're vacating to purchase this new property as a primary right?

    If so:

    - you dont need to put down 10% you could go as low as 5% down with conventional if its a single family residence 

    - you could structure the loan to have no mortgage insurance easy (did they give you this option?)

    - to use rents from a vacating residence, yes, you do need 30% equity evidence via an appraisal however there are other ways of utilizing rent from your vacating residence with out as much headaches it just takes an out of the box type thinker

    Good Luck on things.

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    Albert: yeah, I've actually had to double clutch and go with a different lender last minute, and we are doing 5% down. No one has mentioned structuring to avoid PMI though -- can you expand on that?

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    @Albert Bui  Sorry, it wouldn't tag you in the post above, but here 'tis.

    @Michael Marcoux  I did, if you read the posts carefully.

  • Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Yes you take the rate up to absorb the MI premium (single/one time) or you pay it with cash at closing to avoid monthly MI pretty simply speaking.

    Experiences with single premium:

    - usually I get my buyers agent to negotiate this from the seller or we raise the price then ask back the same amount of concession - request to raise price from 200k to 206k then ask back 6k - net difference to seller is $0 - but now you've in effect financed 6k extra to avoid 225 a month in monthly MI (approx).

    6k financed is about 55 dollars a month with 30 year fixed approx 4.25-4.50% so you in effect gain an arbitrage of 225 monthly MI - 55 = 170 dollars higher cash flow or less out of pocket per month

    Since the tenant will eventually pay your mortgage anyway this debt is delegated to the tenant.

    Single premium MI helps you increase your cash on cash return by lowering the perceived expense of putting less down payment in fear of paying monthly MI. Single premium curbs the effective cost of financing a property with little down payment.

    Sound good?

    Lots of other ways you can structure the MI too the above is just one way i've worked with agents to negotiate these purchase sale agreements - PSA.

    Another way is to absorb the entire single premium through the rate so instead of taking a 4.125% you could take a 4.375 or 4.50% and not have to raise the sales price, pay cash, or rely on the seller concessions to absorb your cost.

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. In this case, since I'm planning to refi in six months with the rehab adding to the value, it doesn't make financial sense. But that's definitely good info for the future!

  • Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @JT Spangler:

    Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. In this case, since I'm planning to refi in six months with the rehab adding to the value, it doesn't make financial sense. But that's definitely good info for the future!

     I do work in your market but mainly with home builders like Ryan and Foxridge Homes in Brentwood/Franklin and Murfreesboro areas.

    Hope the info helps.

    Here are some tips to streamline your cash out at 6 months:

    - have your original Final HUD settlement statement to document your acquisition

    - have all receipts and scope of work (SOW)'s to document work done for valuation purposes

    - get a verbal from local appraiser on opinion letter (usually 50-100 or free with relationship) as it might help your appraisal value you need to get to but if there are a lot of solid comps you will not need this

    - keep an updated loan file on your desktop broken down with folders for paystubs, bank statements, tax returns, W2's, lease agreements, insurance deck pages, and etc so that when you go to do the loan it will be a slam dunk.

    Preparation will help reduce your brain damage when getting financing but if you do the above it will make your life a lot easier in advance.

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes
    11y

    Update: rehab in progress.

    My gf and I got most of the demo done right after closing. My roommate, who has worked as a drywaller, replaced two ceilings for me. I used a good chunk of the seller plumbing concession for a repipe, replacing 75 year old galvanized supply pipes with pex. Still have a few drains I need to change out (I'll do that myself).

    I bought out Home Depot's supply of Allure Ultra Vinyl flooring, which I can't wait to install. Bought two new vanities at surplus stores. Doing all oil-rubbed bronze hardware/lighting/fixtures, so I've got them coming in from various suppliers (Home Depot/amazon/surplus stores).

    I scored a major steal from the Habitat Restore on a prehung exterior door for 75 bucks and two 24" interior doors for 26 bucks (total). Also a nice cast iron double sink for 40 bucks. I LOVE THAT PLACE. 

    I think the only things I have left to purchase are light fixtures (which I'll get from home depot), appliances (when they go on sale next week), and butcher block countertop (when they go on sale next week). Oh, and some travertine tiles for the kitchen backsplash (which another friend is going to do for me at a discount, which is known in the music world as the "bro-rate").

    I spent today sanding all the trim (while wearing a heavy duty respirator, since it's possible one of the early layers of paint was lead based).

    This weekend I'm going to paint the cabinets (solid wood, so I sanded them down and am re-using them with new hardware), paint the trim, and hopefully get started on the walls. All of my paints are purchased (and I took pictures/uploaded to evernote which color went where, so I'll always know what color to get). The painting will probably take me up until I head home for Christmas, and when I get back I'm hoping I can get flooring and countertops done before New Year's.

    My first mortgage payment is due February 1st, and I hope to have tenants in place before then. Unless there are major snags that shouldn't be an issue.

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